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Hrmpf provides details about Apple's latest patent applications. This time, Apple has filed for nine patents related to Flash memory, memory controllers, circuit boards and their applications.
This technology… may provide data storage in various portable devices, such as digital cameras, other image storing devices, portable audio devices, personal digital assistants (PDA), and digital video recorders, … desktop computers, servers, wireless routers, or embedded applications (e.g., automotive), particularly in situations where quick access to data is desirable.

Apple, of course, is using significant amounts of Flash memory for their iPod and iPhone product lines, but rumors have suggested that Apple will be using Flash memory in upcoming Mac notebooks.

Article Link
 
They're probably going to have it be optional in the MacBook Pro. The Dell XPS M1330 has an option for a 64 GB Solid State Drive instead of a hard drive.

Costs $1000 extra. But it does have no moving parts though, so it's super reliable.
 
I'm hoping to see high-end notebooks with the OS (at least the part needed for startup) in flash (SSD), and a big disc drive for everything else -- at least until solid-state gets cheap enough to replace spinning drives entirely.

I presume they'd have to engineer the OS and boot process to make the most of this idea so that it boots very quickly.
 
I presume they'd have to engineer the OS and boot process to make the most of this idea so that it boots very quickly.

It isn't likely much would have to be done to it. An editor over at Engadget posted on his personal blog a video of the same 64 GB SSD in the Dell product line being placed in a MacBook Pro. The system booted in 22 seconds. There are times my MBP takes longer than that to wake up from sleep :p

I'm intrigued by the part that mentions the use of the SSDs in cars. They sure beat HDDs due to all the shaking and rattling around, but how do they fare in heat I wonder. I'm still hoping for some sort of "iCar" in-dash/headrest multimedia system from Apple. With a UI similar to the iPhone/Touch, but also controllable via paddles on the steering wheel. Hmm... :D
 
Flash Memory

They're probably going to have it be optional in the MacBook Pro. The Dell XPS M1330 has an option for a 64 GB Solid State Drive instead of a hard drive.

Costs $1000 extra. But it does have no moving parts though, so it's super reliable.

The high cost has been the primary reason for the delay. Sure hope Apple can partner in development of PMC memory, which blows flash out of the water:

'Programmable-metallization-cell (PMC) memory, or nano-ionic memory could start replacing flash memory in 18 months'

http://advancednano.blogspot.com/2007/10/programmable-metallization-cell-pmc.html
 
Most of the posts in this thread are very backward-looking. "How will they use this in desktops and laptops?"

My forward leaning perspective is all those features of servers, DVR's, routers, etc., etc., will flow into the handtop arena in a couple of short years and while we may have devices with 4x the screen real estate of the iPhone of today, we will displace most laptops and desktops with personal supercomputers that "do it all". Large peripherals will be wireless of course.

The wide screen experience will be a pair of glasses you have on your belt when you need them, and the rest will be very iPhone like.

Prepare to be "stunned". (Hi Steve :) )

Rocketman
 
Wide-screen experience, will be one pair of glasses and I think indeed is the case. I am very accustomed to these, but the opposite effect is to my notebook Izvestia much better.
 
I hope they can put a smaller drive in the MBPs, giving users with the wherewithal to pay for it the option of having two internal drives in the 17" or 15" even. I would love to have a 32GB SSD as a boot drive for my MBP and a regular 200GB HDD that stores everything that doesn't need to be on the boot drive... like the 40GB of Final Cut Pro files or the 15GB of Adobe CS3 files and so forth.

And once SSD become cheaper and have more capacity I can just swap that one out for a bigger one.

I am crossing my fingers for a big MBP and Mac Pro announcement for Mac World. I would love to have Penryn in my next MBP, but it wouldn't hurt to see some innovative tech inside that case as well.
 
mac book mini anyone? except the cost factor. Perhaps putting in a 4/8 gig drive for system booting this is intriguing. Spinning plates are going to be around until the vast amounts of storage can be had for the same price. Think about the apple TV and the digital content store of iTunes. I have every dvd on my puter so I can watch it and not worry about the discs. Currently I have 350 gigs of movies, and 350 of tv shows and that's before i've ripped my tv shows. Very cool but not very practical for the price.
 
Interesting set of patents for a company like Apple. Some are focused on making it cheaper and easier to put more flash components in a box. Some are focused on increasing the capacity of the parts themselves. It's a strange area for a company that isn't really in the semiconductor business.

The dual voltage patent hardly seems novel, considering that this is where Flash came from. All devices used to require a separate programming voltage, then they integrated charge pumps on chip.

Apple is talking about 4 bits per cell, which is more than I'm aware of being used anywhere else. (A quick search turned up a Spansion part that was developed with Saifun, but I don't know if it's actually on the market yet). That's 16 different voltage levels in each cell, which is pushing margins razor thin. Some of these patents are focused on controlling these stored levels and others are focused on correcting the errors.

This high density technology is probably fine for iPods and the like, because music is more resilient in the face of bit errors (and because the iPod data is almost always backed up elsewhere). I don't expect they'll put that in a laptop, and probably wouldn't trust it if they did. The write techniques they're describing would be too slow anyway.

One charge pump for multiple flash devices would drive down the cost of solid state drives, and I would expect that in a laptop.

I wonder what they're expecting to come out of this. They're all from the same two people-- did they assign this to a skunk works, or acquire these guys from somewhere else?
 
This would be cool. However Sony has a leg up on Apple on this one-they already made a laptop with a flash HD. So is the 64 gb the top storage capacity? Or am I reading this wrong? I think the Sony notebook only has 32 gb. Still-flash is the future.
 
whats the difference between solid state drive and flash-based drive?

Solid State Drives are Flash drives.... so I would assume... unless I am missing some technicality that a bigger egg head than I could explain.

But basically the SSDs, like flash memory, use non moving, non volatile method to record information. While Hard Disk Drives use moving platters and rearrange the electromagnetically sensitive materials on those platters to record information. The HDDs are more prone to corruption, as we all can see by recording large files onto our HDDs and then erasing them and doing that over and over again.... the drive would become corrupt. And are very sensitive to shock... as in a drop from a reasonably high place.

The needle that is used to record the info on to the HDDs can also damage the platters by scratching the disks.

SSDs don't have any of those issues because there are no moving parts what so ever... so there is not as big a risk in damaging them from drops. Now the only problem with SSDs are their price. When you can have a 320GB HDD for $400, or a 200GB @ 7200 rpm drive for $250, getting 32GB at $300 and 64GB at $450 is kind of expensive.

SSD are also very fast, since there are no moving parts that have to rev up.

What some manufacturers want to do is combine the speed and reliability of SSD with the mass storage of HDDs. Many 17" notebooks (Alienware Dell and HP) have slots for 2 HDDs and can be outfitted with a 32GB SSD for the OS and other applications, and a large 200GB or 320GB HDD for storing all of the other files... amazing in my opinion... and something I wish the next 17" MacBook Pro could do. I would even hope that Apple make the book a tenth of an inch thicker if they could just add another HDD.

This would be cool. However Sony has a leg up on Apple on this one-they already made a laptop with a flash HD. So is the 64 gb the top storage capacity? Or am I reading this wrong? I think the Sony notebook only has 32 gb. Still-flash is the future.

Sony and other manufacturers have been leading the way with SSDs... but I am sure not too many users want to pay the extra cash for such small amounts of storage especially when content is becoming larger and larger. Digital cameras take bigger photos, HD is becoming mainstream, and music libraries continue to grow. I know that Apple may offer SSDs as an option in the pro models, but if they don't I am sure not too many people will be upset.

I am sure that 64GB is the top capacity... and yes SSDs are the future.
 
Just to try to keep some of the flash hype in perspective:

First, and most important, Flash is not immune to corruption, particularly the multi-level-cell architectures being described here. Ironically, flash is touted for it's reliability and is being pushed as a replacement for rotating media, but in order to compete with rotating media it has to be cost reduced and more bits have to be packed into less space which directly impacts reliability.

If you read and write to a flash over and over you will see failures there too. There are no moving parts, but that doesn't stop flash from wearing out. The internal semiconductor materials do wear out and deform and have all sorts of other nasties happen. There's also risk of cosmic ray corruption and other external effects.

The simplest way to explain how flash works is to say that you are forcing current through an insulator onto a floating electrode-- you are charging the cell with static electricity. Each time you do that, you damage the insulator a little bit. Eventually it just doesn't work as well. Cosmic rays punching through the silicon leave little trails of ions that can corrupt the data.

Each memory cell stores a voltage level, and that voltage is measured to determine the bit value of the cell. The voltage is the static electricity that's been deposited there. For you to feel the jolt from a doorknob, it takes a few thousand volts. The memory cell is only holding a small number of electrons. In many of the patents described in the article, they're trying to store 4 bits per cell or more. 4 bits is 16 distinct voltage levels, which means that a few electrons leaking off, or wear and tear preventing the proper number of electrons from being deposited, is going to change the value you are reading or storing.

The memory cell itself is resistant to drops, but the components are not. Samsung rates their 64GB SSD as withstanding 1500Gs of shock. They rate their 120GB iPod grade hard drives at 1500Gs of shock, non-operating. Basically if Apple's motion sensor parks the drive before your laptop hits the floor, they're just as reliable in the face of drops.

Again comparing Samsung drives, their SSD is rated at 100MB/s sustained read, and 80MB/s sustained write. Their laptop drives are rated at just over 100MB/s sustained read and write. Where Flash really has problems though is erase time. Erasing is a painfully slow operation in Flash, it has to be done in whole blocks, and it has to be done before new data can be written to those locations. I don't know how well an SSD will hold up to virtual memory paging, for example.

Notice I compared 1.8" drives for shock and 2.5" drives for speed. SSD does manage to combine the shock and performance into the same device.

SSD's also have an operating power benefit. The hard drive pulls something like 1-2W, which isn't huge when put in context of everything else in the laptop, but it's there. The SSD should pull close to nothing when it isn't being accessed, and pulls something like a Watt when it's busy.

My point in all this is that while there is something very elegant about not having any moving parts spinning around inside my laptop, I'm not overly anxious to move to solid state drives. I don't think Flash is going to be the technology that obsolete's rotating disks. Something will, no doubt, but I don't think Flash is it. We need too much storage and we can't get that cheaply enough with solid state.

I might imagine a system like this: 128GB of solid state storage in the laptop, and 24GB of RAM so I can minimize paging, and a 500GB external 2.5" firewire drive to store media files and other large datasets. Not cheap with todays technology, that's for sure, but if applications can control their bloat over the next couple years, that might be a suitable portable system for my needs in 5 or 6 years.
 
If you read and write to a flash over and over you will see failures there too.

This is true. But my understanding of what the larger capacity SSDs are doing means that they will determine which sector to write to based on its historic use. So that if you only use 30 gigs of a 32 gig drive you would write to the last 2 gigs when copying or moving before writing to open space within the drive. Because of the added speed of the non-mechanical system this "fragmenting" as it has been called on platters would not instate any real visible speed difference.

It would be my assumption that the risk of hardware failure due to use would be rather similar on an HDD vs. an SSD. Then, remove the risk of droping it and sending a needle through the platter and its reliability outshines HDD, at least in the laptop or portable market.

However, since there aren't any SSDs out there that are ready to handle the size needed by most Mac laptop users we won't really be able to do any side by side reliability tests until they're available.
 
I hope they can put a smaller drive in the MBPs, giving users with the wherewithal to pay for it the option of having two internal drives in the 17" or 15" even. I would love to have a 32GB SSD as a boot drive for my MBP and a regular 200GB HDD that stores everything that doesn't need to be on the boot drive... like the 40GB of Final Cut Pro files or the 15GB of Adobe CS3 files and so forth.

This is how I can imagine it being used.
 
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