Apple Restricting Use of NFC Antenna in iPhone 6 and 6 Plus to Apple Pay

[Tycho24]

I don't suppose you could sly it? Make it look like your finger?

Anyway, my point isn't that touch-ID is insecure. I'm just having a hard time seeing how it is any more secure than a good password. Nobody can chop my password off, nobody can use it on the sly when I'm asleep, nodody has anyway of knowing what it is unless I leave post-it-notes around with it written down.

You're just being insane.
I GUARANTEE if somebody was in front of you with garden shears threatening to chop off your finger; you'd give up your password instead in a jiffy!!!
Also, TouchID doesn't work & I have to resort to password every time I come in from the cold, or if my hands are wet- it's a bit finicky. Lol, not sure it'd work with a cold & pulseless corpse finger...
Then, I might note that there a LOT more petty thieves in the world than heartless cold maiming finger severers!!! Lol, as a matter of fact I've NEVER heard of that. The idea of a thief snatching a debit card or phone is that it's a teeny crime... & easy. They only get a few hundred dollars, tops & if they get caught they'd get a small slap on the wrist. The prison system is not full of cell phone thieves.
However, there would legitimately be a manhunt for a psychopath that was chopping off fingers to make a few dollars.
What reality have you concocted where the stuff your saying sounds remotely plausible??!!

 

[theheadguy]

They are locking it down to make sure ApplePay is successful first. They wouldn't want someone else building a better platform on their hardware before they first get their system rolled out.

Yup.

 

[BDIs]

I've used it too. But it was very hit or miss. My success rate was about 50% at the few terminals that exist. Apple making the infrastructure mainstream is part of the revolution

Works 100% of the time for me. The retailer just has to have the terminal

 

[stuffradio]

Good. Opening it up to other NFC payment solutions just increases the security risk for Apple and its customers.

Not really. NFC is a chip, not a payment device. It is simply being used as a payment device by Apple.

 

[ptb42]

you totally missed my point...

I'm gave up trying to decipher the rest of your rambling, but it's clear you don't understand pay at all, and are trying to pigeon-hole it into something else.

The key to pay is the proxy financial info: Once the phone transmits it to the NFC terminal, it uses the same payment processing infrastructure as every other transaction, until it reaches the issuing bank. At that time, the bank maps the proxy financial info into the consumer's actual account data, and authorizes or refuses the transaction.

The proxy financial info is useless outside that one transaction. If any part of the interconnected systems are compromised at any point during the transaction, the information can't be reused for fraud. The bank is the only one that has to make any changes to the authorization process. And in exchange, they have almost complete control over the user's account information.

 

[cjmillsnun]

Maybe they'll provide an option for smaller payments (say <£5) to not require authentication, in the same way that Oyster and contactless credit cards currently do.

I hope not. The whole point of Apple pay, is that it is more secure than contactless cards. That said, if I can pay by Chip and PIN, I will continue to do so.

 

[JGIGS]

In the U.S.? No, not the majority. The key to Apple Pay is that it's baked into the Apple Watch. If I don't have to dig out my wallet and pluck out my CC that's a thing of beauty. I agree it's no more difficult to pull out my wallet than my CC, but if wide NFC adoption b/c of Apple Pay means I don't have to carry physical CCs, again Joy to the World.

I guess I'll relate it more to me. If you have an watch then yeah that would be easier but its really not that much of a hassle to pull out your cc. Plus in Canada I'd say 60-70% of retailers still don't have NFC tap to pay and I have to enter my pin with a credit card/debit card or still or sign a receipt. I'm sure that will change in the next couple of years.

Since both my debit and credit card have NFC it's only an advantage if I spend at least $1500 between buying an iPhone and an watch. The pay feature doesn't make my life that much easier that I would make that kind of investment.

 

[H2SO4]

You're just being insane.
I GUARANTEE if somebody was in front of you with garden shears threatening to chop off your finger; you'd give up your password instead in a jiffy!!!
Also, TouchID doesn't work & I have to resort to password every time I come in from the cold, or if my hands are wet- it's a bit finicky. Lol, not sure it'd work with a cold & pulseless corpse finger...
Then, I might note that there a LOT more petty thieves in the world than heartless cold maiming finger severers!!! Lol, as a matter of fact I've NEVER heard of that. The idea of a thief snatching a debit card or phone is that it's a teeny crime... & easy. They only get a few hundred dollars, tops & if they get caught they'd get a small slap on the wrist. The prison system is not full of cell phone thieves.
However, there would legitimately be a manhunt for a psychopath that was chopping off fingers to make a few dollars.
What reality have you concocted where the stuff your saying sounds remotely plausible??!!

I think the point he’s making is that once someone has your password, (which let’s face it they can even get remotely if they’re good enough), you can change it. Once they get your fingerprint however……...

 

[D-Dave]

I think this is going to piss people off at first but in the long run is what's going to make their system stick and what's going to separate them from the others, Google Wallet, and the like.

Problem is that iPhone market share is below 20% in most european countrys. (Even the UK only has ~25% last time I checked) That number is just not high enough for merchants to jump on the Apple Pay Train...which is probably why Apple ignores those markets for now...not sure if that is wise in the long run...

 

[Jimmy James]

Who didn't see this coming?

 

[BruiserB]

I don't suppose you could sly it? Make it look like your finger?



Anyway, my point isn't that touch-ID is insecure. I'm just having a hard time seeing how it is any more secure than a good password. Nobody can chop my password off, nobody can use it on the sly when I'm asleep, nodody has anyway of knowing what it is unless I leave post-it-notes around with it written down.

If my finger doesn't work when I'm just getting out of the shower or on the coldest days of winter (too much/too little moisture), I somehow doubt my withering severed finger is going to be too useful to anyone.

 

[travis64]

this is bs just to release to this with the 6s.they think to far ahead and don't worry about do the most they can do now.

anyone with a 3ds knows how much better nfc makes the games.

 

[Fabricman112]

I'm gave up trying to decipher the rest of your rambling, but it's clear you don't understand pay at all, and are trying to pigeon-hole it into something else.

The key to pay is the proxy financial info: Once the phone transmits it to the NFC terminal, it uses the same payment processing infrastructure as every other transaction, until it reaches the issuing bank. At that time, the bank maps the proxy financial info into the consumer's actual account data, and authorizes or refuses the transaction.

The proxy financial info is useless outside that one transaction. If any part of the interconnected systems are compromised at any point during the transaction, the information can't be reused for fraud. The bank is the only one that has to make any changes to the authorization process. And in exchange, they have almost complete control over the user's account information.

I am NOT saying pay is not safe... it is "easy" making a payment safe...
try thinking ahead... IF you use applepay you will still see your purchase in your bank account... why is that?!? because Apple WILL NEED A CREDIT/DEBIT-card making the transaction... you have to understand the info is shared via your creditcard to the bank... this is the whole business of credit/debit-cards otherwise an old check would do just fine...

 

[darkslide29]

Several years ago, I was issued a credit card (Citi Mastercard) that had some chip inside that allowed me to wave it at a terminal to pay. Was this an NFC chip? I'm guessing no, and that it was more similar to my bus transit card that uses RFID, requiring low (or no) power to operate.

Assuming they are different technologies -- I have paid with one of these cards at McDonald's before. How do we differentiate a module that accepts these old cards, versus NFC? So I don't look like an idiot waving my phone at an incompatible module.

 

[roadbloc]

You're just being insane.
I GUARANTEE if somebody was in front of you with garden shears threatening to chop off your finger; you'd give up your password instead in a jiffy!!

Says who? This is exactly my point.
An authentication system relying on something you physically possess, be it a swipe card, usb, eyeball or finger, can still be taken from you without permission regardless of what it is. Something that is with you mentally requires you to give the information up. Regardless of the circumstance, it is still your choice to give it up. It cannot be stolen unless written down somewhere.

Now I'm not saying that using fingerprints is bad and they shouldn't be used. I think it is kinda cool actually, but with friends like mine it is a no-go. However for the most of people, it is an excellent alternative to a password. I'm just failing to see how it makes using passwords all of a sudden insecure and obsolete. In my mind they're just as secure, if not more.

 

[Judas1]

Oh Apple! Keeping a new feature like nfc all to yourself, so that you get a leg up on your own product Apple pay. Guess you do love us like we love you.

 

[Mr. Protocol]

I don't care *bleep* about Apple Pay

I want NFC to be able to start my iPhone talking to my Sony α7 camera. The α7 uses NFC to switch a smartphone over to the camera's WiFi. Otherwise you have to dive into the phone's settings, switch it over manually, and then get on with the business of transferring photos, remotely controlling the camera, etc. NFC makes this easy. On the iPhone, it's currently a real pain. This means Android phones, tablets, etc. with NFC are much easier to use with the α7 than iPhones, iPads, etc.

If Apple makes many more boneheaded decisions like this, I may be off to Android land.

 

[chrisbru]

That won't last long once some company files a lawsuit saying it is anti-competitive.

By limiting the use of a feature on a device you sell where consumers have the option to buy a similar device from other manufacturers? I don't think you understand what anti-competitive means.

 

[NightFox]

I hope not. The whole point of Apple pay, is that it is more secure than contactless cards. That said, if I can pay by Chip and PIN, I will continue to do so.

Yep, that's why it should be an option. A simple "Don't Authenticate purchases under £5" option in settings so people can decide. However, if this is going to extend to transit passes (like London Transport's Oyster Cards), there's no way that'll work if users need to authenticate payments, it's just too slow.

 

[Fabricman112]

Fabricman, you are very optimistic. If you look a few posts up, there have been hacked Chip&Pin terminals. They were hacked at the supplier. Not where they were installed. A god honest Swedish company could be renting a terminal that is already hacked before it is installed and never know about it.

BTW. When you say "safe" what you really mean is "the customer gets their money back". From the bank's point of view, that's not safe. They'd prefer something where the scammers don't get your money in the first place and there is nothing to pay back, and Apple Pay helps with that.

absolutely thank you... by "safe" I mean I will pay you 100$/month for a safe transfer (making me 100% NOT RESPONSIBLE) and the terminals can be sniffed/ traffic monitored... but it is still such an advanced form of compromise, that the terminalvendor takes full responsibility...
and trust me, when you call the bank and get your money back.. the bank does NOT pay the loss... if that was the case you´d bet every bank would have its own payment system

edit: think 1870´s I put my money in your bank... I get a receipt telling me my 500$ is safe at your bank, even if the bank was robbed I paid a small fee guaranteeing I have 500$...

 

[darkslide29]

I want NFC to be able to start my iPhone talking to my Sony α7 camera. The α7 uses NFC to switch a smartphone over to the camera's WiFi. Otherwise you have to dive into the phone's settings, switch it over manually, and then get on with the business of transferring photos, remotely controlling the camera, etc. NFC makes this easy. On the iPhone, it's currently a real pain. This means Android phones, tablets, etc. with NFC are much easier to use with the α7 than iPhones, iPads, etc.

If Apple makes many more boneheaded decisions like this, I may be off to Android land.

Patience. I said the same thing about TouchID, and now that is (finally) opened up. TouchID felt nearly useless to me until my apps could accept it. Tomorrow with iOS 8, I'll be happy.

It is likely they want Apple Pay to take off first, get customers used to it, and then open it up to developers. The last thing they want is for PayPal to try and take over primary usage of the NFC chip, especially since Apple has a financial stake in this working out well for them. It is a sound business decision, and unfortunately business decisions won't always overlap well with what we want.

 

[Journification]

By limiting the use of a feature on a device you sell where consumers have the option to buy a similar device from other manufacturers? I don't think you understand what anti-competitive means.

If NFC was deployed at a universally acceptable standard, it would be a shame for Apple to restrict its use.

However, NFC isn't a technology, which broadly delivers satisfaction across a range of functions - that's everything from marketing to pairing with other devices. I don't think Apple can control outside forces and therefore, they can't guarantee the NFC experience - which forums like this would pan, if something didn't work that well in the wild.

So, apple needs to be sensible and use NFC for something / a user experience it can control... this is a smart move by them.

 

[Judas1]

Patience. I said the same thing about TouchID, and now that is (finally) opened up. TouchID felt nearly useless to me until my apps could accept it. Tomorrow, it will be fixed and I'll be happy.

It is likely they want Apple Pay to take off first, get customers used to it, and then open it up to developers. The last thing they want is for PayPal to try and take over primary usage of the NFC chip, especially since Apple has a financial stake in this working out well for them. It is a sound business decision, and unfortunately business decisions won't always overlap well with what we want.

Then criticize their decisions. Don't just accept it. You have your own interest beside what Apple wants.

 

[kerrikins]

ApplePay is a nice idea and will surely bring changes. But I think it will fail outside US if the merchants have to set-up an infrastructure dedicated to ApplePay. If they can accept mobile payments from Android and IOS with the same terminal, then it might work.

Hasn't it already been established that it doesn't need specific terminals?

 

[ptb42]

try thinking ahead... IF you use applepay you will still see your purchase in your bank account... why is that?!? because Apple WILL NEED A CREDIT/DEBIT-card making the transaction... you have to understand the info is shared via your creditcard to the bank... this is the whole business of credit/debit-cards otherwise an old check would do just fine...

Of course the issuing bank has your credit/debit card info. They are either loaning the money to you to make a credit card transaction, or they hold the money you are using to make a debit card transaction. And if you use pay to make the transaction, it's going to show up on your account statement. Where else do you think the money comes from: trees?

But, Apple doesn't handle the transaction. IT GOES THROUGH EXISTING PAYMENT NETWORKS. Sorry for the shouting, but if you don't comprehend anything else, hopefully you'll get this.

The one part that I'm still unclear on: how does the Device Account Number (it's called an "alias" in Apple's patent) get associated with your credit card number? During the keynote, Apple said you could enter it into your Passbook by simply snapping a picture. But, how does the issuing bank learn about the association?

Does the Passbook app send it to Apple, who then sends it to the bank? Or does the Passbook app communicate directly with the bank's servers? If I were the bank, I'd insist on the latter. Passbook would have to know which bank to contact , but that's an an easy mapping of a few numbers to a URL (it's encoded in the first digits of the credit card number).