If your company has absolutely no need for security, why have they paid for 5 security gates?
Got a tip for us?
Let us know
Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.
Apple Retail Employees File Class Action Lawsuit Over 'Bag Check' Lost Wages
- Thread starter MacRumors
- Start date
- Sort by reaction score
- Status
If your company has absolutely no need for security, why have they paid for 5 security gates?
For those who can't be bothered to read this whole thread or who insist on foaming at the mouth without understanding why this is an issue - read this post.
https://forums.macrumors.com/posts/17655096/
It spells it out quite clearly as to what is being questioned in the case.
https://forums.macrumors.com/posts/17655096/
It spells it out quite clearly as to what is being questioned in the case.
If Apple has absolutely no need for security, why do they waste manager's time to do it?
If people don't understand that this isn't a question about security but that it's really about what should and should not be counted as employee or employer time, why are they wasting time arguing it continuously
Because they can get away with it and haven't been challenged on it until now, and it potentially reduces shrinkage? And again, the question isn't whether the bag search is right or wrong - it's whether it's happening on company time or employee time, the reasons for that, and whether it means that Apple should pay.
And yet for an unknown company that you have no idea what they do, you state that the off the clock security check is necessary and legal. Like I said - That's some crazy logic!
And there was a class action lawsuit with Best Buy back around 1999/2000 for the practice too. In addition to the bag checks, you had to sign in and out, and ,after hours, you had to get a manager to unlock the doors and escort you out of the building. Employees would often need to wait 15-30 minutes after they clocked out before they could leave.
There are not 5 security gates.. there is one.
There are 5 doors that I have to go through to get out of the building.
I did NOT say that the company has no need for security. I said there is not a business need.
ie. you are saying that it is not necessary for the business of apple to have bag checks. In other words, they could still continue to do business without bag checks.
The company I work for is not required to keep security because of some business contract like you keep insisting. We are under no contracts that require anything of the sort. We could still continue to do business without the security gate, just like apple could still do business without a bag check.
BOTH are the EMPLOYERS DECISION... so why should apple have to pay for their employees to go through security when other companies don't? It is not realistic to ask for a company to pay you just because you are off the clock but it takes a few minutes to get through security. It is supposed to sound absurd for a company to pay you to go through access card secured doors... that's the point.
If people don't understand that this isn't a question about security but that it's really about what should and should not be counted as employee or employer time, why are they wasting time arguing it continuously
Nobody here is arguing whether or not there should be security...
The argument is whether you should be ON or OFF the clock while going through security, and why it should be different from company A to company B.
Last edited:
Another perspective on this issue... Most employers I've been around consider your start time when you report to your work station. If you had to get your bag checked before you enter the building, would you still argue that would have to be work time?
I will only speak for myself. And I stated this earlier in the thread. My issue is less with the pre/post work shift.
What I think is not appropriate at all is to cut into someone's lunch time - which is required by law for hourly employees. If they want to search bags to/from lunch - that should not be part of the 30 minutes.
----------
People have argued that. Along with whether or not a bag is needed or not. Irrelevant.
And again - there are different laws for HOURLY employes vs SALARY. I can't be clearer.
If by "people who aren't just like me" you mean malingering, lazy people who in the land of opportunity can't manage to get educated and find a job that pays a decent wage, then yeah, I don't particularly like them.
So much blind sexism in this thread. I'd bet 95% of the readers here are male. What if you were a female employee and were not allowed to bring in a bag, or had to use a clear plastic bag where your manager got to see your feminine hygiene products?
No, it is the societal norm for women to carry purses. End of story. Apple should not forbid bags nor should it not pay while searching them. We're (supposedly) a civilized society and Apple is being unreasonable. I eagerly support the plaintiffs.
My country is not in America... anyway it's simply how the laws are structured, it's a matter of hierarchy. In a contract I cannot agree to what I want, I can only agree to what the law allows me to.why on earth would you sign a contract that you didn't agree with? That's like saying oh I want to buy this house so I'm going to sign the mortgage paperwork, even though I don't agree that I should be paying $4,500 a month. I believe that the house should only cost me $3,750 a month.
But don't worry, I'm going to sign the contract that I don't find valid nor agree with, and I'll just complain about it later on....
This is the kind of logic that proves why America is going downhill.....
In your example, I doubt the law states there is a "too high" mortgage payment so even if you complain a judge wouldn't side with you. But if the law states that the minimum lenght for a lunch break is 30 minutes for an at least 5 hours/day work, it doesn't matter what I agree on the contract. These minimal rights are simply non-negotiable.
You keep saying that, but I have told you numerous times, there are both SALARY and HOURLY employees who work here, all have to go through the same security. Stop trying to say that there are different laws, yes that is true, but it has NO relevance here. ALL EMPLOYEES GO THROUGH THE SAME SECURITY, you cannot argue that it's due to difference in laws between hourly and salary employees because.... let me say it again, everyone has to go through the same security, whether hourly or salary... IT DOESN'T MATTER!
it was a huge pain...
some employees are students and were doing assignments during lunch or right after work. waiting for a manager for 10 minutes while not getting paid, then having the bag check be a half-assed effort sucks even more. yes bringing a bag in was a personal choice. but the fact that a lunch bag or a ladies purse or a fanny pack or a plastic bag with your used tupperware in it requires a manager to check a bag while the employee waits and doesnt get paid or worse takes up valuable time during a lunch is a little bit ridiculous. and the whole time i was there internal theft was not being committed by retail employees. it was contractors and custodial staff that were stealing. someone's personal effects that are stored in a locker under constant watch from cameras from the moment it enters the property until the moment it leaves should not be the focus of a managers attention. theft is a problem. and a company does have the right to protect from theft. but making a concerted effort to block employees from leaving in a timely manner and not once checking a customer or their bags is a waste of time and money for all. any employee stealing would be aware of bag checks and therefore figure out another way.
as a former lead I was not allowed to do bag checks, only a manager was. trouble was, I was sometimes the only one in the building and employees would then have to wait for a manager to return.
some employees are students and were doing assignments during lunch or right after work. waiting for a manager for 10 minutes while not getting paid, then having the bag check be a half-assed effort sucks even more. yes bringing a bag in was a personal choice. but the fact that a lunch bag or a ladies purse or a fanny pack or a plastic bag with your used tupperware in it requires a manager to check a bag while the employee waits and doesnt get paid or worse takes up valuable time during a lunch is a little bit ridiculous. and the whole time i was there internal theft was not being committed by retail employees. it was contractors and custodial staff that were stealing. someone's personal effects that are stored in a locker under constant watch from cameras from the moment it enters the property until the moment it leaves should not be the focus of a managers attention. theft is a problem. and a company does have the right to protect from theft. but making a concerted effort to block employees from leaving in a timely manner and not once checking a customer or their bags is a waste of time and money for all. any employee stealing would be aware of bag checks and therefore figure out another way.
as a former lead I was not allowed to do bag checks, only a manager was. trouble was, I was sometimes the only one in the building and employees would then have to wait for a manager to return.
Umm... no....
This isn't about whining... This is about demanding employers pay you for the time you're forced to spend there. If they don't like keeping their people on the clock while they enforce their arbitrary "security procedures" for their own benefit -- then maybe they should make everyone a salaried employee?
There are plenty of things I like about Apple, and plenty of times I think they're singled out unfairly - simply because they're so successful.
This isn't one of those times.
Someone said this was like factory work, where you're supposed to leave personal items at the gate? It's not. Factories have safety issues to contend with. Something as simple as a guy wearing a ring or a woman's necklace could result in injury or even death, if it got caught in the right piece of machinery.
Besides, Apple stores already have extensive security camera systems in place. If they can't figure out which employee is sneaking company property out in a purse or bag, they need to look at redoing those systems so they're more effective. They DO have the right to employ those technologies, and they don't cut into any employee's time.
This isn't about whining... This is about demanding employers pay you for the time you're forced to spend there. If they don't like keeping their people on the clock while they enforce their arbitrary "security procedures" for their own benefit -- then maybe they should make everyone a salaried employee?
There are plenty of things I like about Apple, and plenty of times I think they're singled out unfairly - simply because they're so successful.
This isn't one of those times.
Someone said this was like factory work, where you're supposed to leave personal items at the gate? It's not. Factories have safety issues to contend with. Something as simple as a guy wearing a ring or a woman's necklace could result in injury or even death, if it got caught in the right piece of machinery.
Besides, Apple stores already have extensive security camera systems in place. If they can't figure out which employee is sneaking company property out in a purse or bag, they need to look at redoing those systems so they're more effective. They DO have the right to employ those technologies, and they don't cut into any employee's time.
IT DOES MATTER! Hourly employees get paid for time worked. Salary employees get paid a flat rate. The hourly employees are supposed to be paid for the time that they are required to be at work. They aren't. Salary employees are not included in this issue because they are not paid by the hour. Do you understand now?
If people don't understand that this isn't a question about security but that it's really about what should and should not be counted as employee or employer time, why are they wasting time arguing it continuously
Because, unfortunately, there is quote a bit of pent-up anger on these forums nowadays.
That comment right there proves you simply don't know what you're talking about. For an hourly employee, every minute counts. There is a major difference.
Ok, so why are the hourly employees not paid to wait at the security gate? I know the difference between hourly and salary, you are trying to justify that my example doesn't count.... IT HAS TO DO WITH HOURLY EMPLOYEES.
Understand now???????
Did you even read what we are talking about... your response just proves that YOU don't know what YOU are talking about. I am speaking specifically about the difference between hourly and salary employees WHERE I WORK, and how it doesn't matter whether people are hourly or salary because all go through the same security. This guy is arguing that the reason it should not matter that we go through security is because we are salary or some nonsense, simply not true because hourly employees go through the same process and also are not paid. Please don't tell me that I don't know what I'm talking about because you can't comprehend the words and context that they are written in...
Forever21 "We don't trust our employees" Handbook
Forever 21, a fashion retailer was hit with a very similar class action lawsuit.
According to Wikipedia,
It looks to me like Apple has taken a page out of the Forever21 "We don't trust our employees" Handbook.
You might also like to take a look at this link from the Huffington Post.
Forever 21, a fashion retailer was hit with a very similar class action lawsuit.
According to Wikipedia,
"In January 2012, a class action lawsuit was filed against Forever 21 by its employees stating that Forever 21 systematically failed to pay them for hours worked. Employees of Forever 21 are required to subject their personal belongings to a "Bag Check Policy" to ensure there is no stolen merchandise. As part of this policy employees are required to have their belongings checked while still clocked in, however according to former and present Forever 21 employees the bag check has been done while clocked-out resulting in unpaid time while working."
It looks to me like Apple has taken a page out of the Forever21 "We don't trust our employees" Handbook.
You might also like to take a look at this link from the Huffington Post.
Well, in your example, the hourly employee are not getting paid properly, and the salary employees don't count because they are salary employees... How simple can I make it?
You don't get it. It's a non issue for salaried employees. The laws that apply to hourly employees are different. It doesn't matter that BOTH have to go through security where you work. And those that are hourly - at your company - who are consistently losing their legally allowed (and mandated) lunch time because of security checks can also file a lawsuit. That is their right and privilege.
Are we clear?
Thank you, this guy I swear.
You can't, he just likes beating a dead horse.
Facepalm, read the above comments and try again.
- Status