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Yes arsenal have an online store and if you purchase things from them the transaction is done with them and if you want a refund you go through them not apple and guess what there is no security problem so it makes no fundamental difference if a 3rd party link is there or not
This is all about Apple maintaining their status quo by hiding behind privacy and security
No, it isn’t.

If you - as a bathroom renovator - want to maintain your status as the best bathroom renovator in the world, you need full control of everything that is done during such renovation.

If someone else does the shower part, someone you have no control over, then it’s possible that you’ll lose your status as the best bathroom renovator in the world. Now, it could be that you’ll work with shower installation companies that are insanely good at what they do, and your status won’t be affected.

But there’s no guarantee of that. Because there will be different shower installers involved as you renovate bathrooms.

It could be that my shower is crooked and I will be unhappy with your company, and will question your status as the best bathroom renovator in the world. All of a sudden your status is questioned over something that someone else did wrong.
 
Free ? Don't developers pay a fee to become a developer and use the Apple-mandated API's to write their apps?
If the fee is too little, maybe Apple should charge more for that, but getting money for doing nothing isn't the solution. iPhone would be nothing if there were no apps, btw...maybe developers should get paid by Apple for the favor of writing apps people want to buy an iPhone for?
around we go again... many times people have said the $99 is a low fee to make it cheap and easy for all sized devs to get tools and release apps. higher fees would discourage many.

iphone also, like most phones at the time, came with vendor supplied apps.
so it wouldnt be nothing. it would have still been a phone with whatever Apple added to the mix.

yeah, Epic should get paid by Apple to make their app ;)
 
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Apple may think “App Store” is their trademarked service, but the problem is it’s a generic term. You can’t own everyday language that simply describes what something is. Microsoft, Amazon, and Google all run “app stores,” and consumers understand that as a category, not just Apple’s brand. Trademark law exists to prevent confusion, not to let a giant company wall off plain English. If the Court sides with Apple here, it sets a dangerous precedent where big tech can fence off basic industry terms and choke competition.
Or worse, fence off English and try to claim copyright for that, causing massive headache to virtually every English user and fundamentally shatter the English speaking world. I’m not sure Apple is big enough for the guaranteed chaos and massive backlash, just for the sake of trademarking “App Store”
 
Free ? Don't developers pay a fee to become a developer and use the Apple-mandated API's to write their apps?
If the fee is too little, maybe Apple should charge more for that, but getting money for doing nothing isn't the solution. iPhone would be nothing if there were no apps, btw...maybe developers should get paid by Apple for the favor of writing apps people want to buy an iPhone for?
Apple isn’t getting money for doing nothing. They are hosting your app, they offer hardware that can run your app in a consistent way (unlike Android with all its UI skins) and they’ll deposit the earnings of your app onto your account. They also take care of customers who want a refund.

All this is done while you can chill in the sofa. And they charge a bit for that.

If you don’t agree: build a web app.

(Which is the best way to go in my opinion, even though I’m defending the AppStore)
 
well then that just like using Temu or Amazon so it's a store front for buying physical goods.
as has been discussed also many times.

not the same as buying digital in app items.

i'll let you go through the post history for the long debates on that...
Again is your claim that epic doesn’t have the ability to facilitate refunds on digital transactions and only apple can on iOS?
Is that your claim
 
You know, devs, you don't have to develop for iOS. Just leave. Problem solved.

Just like how I can choose not to develop for the Epic Games Store using Unreal engine on Windows. I can develop for Steam using Unity for Mac.
You know I keep asking this, what you just stated as a question, and no critic really wants to answer it outside of the token throw away dismissal.

Why put up with Apple's tyranny when Android offers 3rd party app stores, 3rd party payments, sideloading, and listing for the "1st party" Google Play app store is immeasurably less painful and with no arbitrary denials or "sherlocking"?
 
No, it isn’t.

If you - as a bathroom renovator - want to maintain your status as the best bathroom renovator in the world, you need full control of everything that is done during such renovation.

If someone else does the shower part, someone you have no control over, then it’s possible that you’ll lose your status as the best bathroom renovator in the world. Now, it could be that you’ll work with shower installation companies that are insanely good at what they do, and your status won’t be affected.

But there’s no guarantee of that. Because there will be different shower installers involved as you renovate bathrooms.

It could be that my shower is crooked and I will be unhappy with your company, and will question your status as the best bathroom renovator in the world. All of a sudden your status is questioned over something that someone else did wrong.
Again is the claim that epic doesn’t have the ability to facilitate refunds on digital transactions on iOS without any issues
And only apple can?
 
Does it matter who wins? The outcome is either greedy company A takes my money or greedy company B? As a consumer I seem not to win in either case.

Has Apple ever explained why 30% is reasonable? How high is their profit margin on App Store?
 
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Apple isn’t getting money for doing nothing. They are hosting your app, they offer hardware that can run your app in a consistent way (unlike Android with all its UI skins) and they’ll deposit the earnings of your app onto your account. They also take care of customers who want a refund.

All this is done while you can chill in the sofa. And they charge a bit for that.

If you don’t agree: build a web app.

(Which is the best way to go in my opinion, even though I’m defending the AppStore)
Yes however most individuals who own smartphones don’t understand web apps and that’s the point why apple doesn’t want 3rd party payment links because then it bypasses their IAP 15% to 30% charge and they know that
 
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Again is the claim that epic doesn’t have the ability to facilitate refunds on digital transactions on iOS without any issues
And only apple can?
You’ve asked that question before and I already answered it.

But I’ll explain again: no, I’m not claiming that. The issue is that Apple has no control over Epic’s refund policy and therefor can’t guarantee AppStore users that their purchases and refunds are safe and guaranteed.

Apple has no guarantee that Epic are honest/capable when it comes to handling refunds. Could very well be that they are.

There’s just no guarantee. And that guarantee is what you need if you want to present yourself as the best/safest/whatever AppStore in the world.
 
Does it matter who wins? The outcome is either greedy company A takes my money or greedy company B? As a consumer I seem not to win in either case.

Has Apple ever explained why 30% is reasonable? How high is their profit margin on App Store?
Yes it’s because other companies charge that so that’s why we are doing it
However other companies offer cheaper devices so why aren’t they doing it.
 
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Again is your claim that epic doesn’t have the ability to facilitate refunds on digital transactions and only apple can on iOS?
Is that your claim
are your posts always going to be so passive aggressive?

and i fail to see how what I said is construed to what words you claim i'm making...
 
You’ve asked that question before and I already answered it.

But I’ll explain again: no, I’m not claiming that. The issue is that Apple has no control over Epic’s refund policy and therefor can’t guarantee AppStore users that their purchases and refunds are safe and guaranteed.

Apple has no guarantee that Epic are honest/capable when it comes to handling refunds. Could very well be that they are.

There’s just no guarantee. And that guarantee is what you need if you want to present yourself as the best/safest/whatever AppStore in the world.
That’s a ridiculous claim that epic has a dodgy refund policy and their purchases and refunds aren’t safe and guaranteed
When the last time I checked it wasn’t
Wee bob’s iPhone repair shop down the road
 
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Why put up with Apple's tyranny when Android offers 3rd party app stores, 3rd party payments, sideloading, and listing for the "1st party" Google Play app store is immeasurably less painful and with no arbitrary denials or "sherlocking"?
Because none of them really help developers when it comes to making more money.
Has Apple ever explained why 30% is reasonable? How high is their profit margin on App Store?
My understanding is that Nintendo did the 30% cut first (with their own app store), and Apple simply followed what was considered the norm at the time. If we look at the market today, Sony, Nintendo, even Valve seem to hover around this percentage.

Maybe it just "feels right" psychologically. Not too high and not too low.
 
Does it matter who wins? The outcome is either greedy company A takes my money or greedy company B? As a consumer I seem not to win in either case.

Has Apple ever explained why 30% is reasonable? How high is their profit margin on App Store?
No one is forcing you to buy anything. You either buy Apple products or you don’t. Not agreeing with Apple’s profits, buying Apple hardware anyway, then complain about Apple profits is a reality you create yourself.

I don’t think it matters how much profit a company makes. But it seems to be a thing these days to slag off companies who do well for themselves.

Your life will be the same regardless of whether Apple makes $1 profit or $1b profit.

It has no impact on you whatsoever.
 
are your posts always going to be so passive aggressive?

and i fail to see how what I said is construed to what words you claim i'm making...
so do you think that epic can’t facilitate a
Refund on digital transactions and your card details would not be safe with epic
Or can only apple do it correct
Because the last time I checked epic wasn’t
A two bit operation so this argument about privacy and security doesn’t really hold water in relation to epic offering a 3rd party payment link unless you think they as a company are dodgy?
 
Which IP are Apple referring to? Presumably it’s the same IP that is used to build apps like Uber and Lyft. Apple doesn’t get a cut of those transactions. Or what about purchases made via the browser? There’s no IP attached to Safari or any 3rd party browser in the App Store?
How about the entire technology behind the App Store. The platform, the servers, etc. Apple provides the marketplace for other companies to sell their apps, Apple should fairly get a cut. No different than merchants using Amazon to sell their merch, guess what…Amazon gets a cut.
 
That’s a ridiculous claim that epic has a dodgy refund policy and their purchases and refunds aren’t safe and guaranteed
When the last time I checked it wasn’t
Wee bob’s iPhone repair shop down the road
Never said that Epic’s refund policy was dodgy.

I said that Apple has no guarantee over Epic’s doings.

Just like your bathroom renovations company has no guarantee that a customer’s shower will be installed correctly if an unknown, 3rd party does it.
 
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The amount of comments on here that are anti-business is honestly scary…

The idea that Apple can develop software, systems, the infrastructure to support, etc. but not be compensated for providing a marketplace for other companies to sell their apps is a strange argument. It’s also perplexing how Google and others have a lot of the same policies but don’t get the heat Apple does.

The argument for Apple is the same argument for Amazon. Amazon provides the marketplace, companies sell their goods via Amazon, Amazon gets a cut. It’s basic economics and makes sense.

People expecting Apple to just do stuff for free is insane, and not sustainable. Those data centers, the development tools, etc aren’t free for Apple to develop, build, and maintain. They are entitled to compensation for providing the marketplace!
 
How about the entire technology behind the App Store. The platform, the servers, etc. Apple provides the marketplace for other companies to sell their apps, Apple should fairly get a cut. No different than merchants using Amazon to sell their merch, guess what…Amazon gets a cut.
Seems to be a thing these days where some dream of deciding how much profit a company can make.

They are like the moral profit compasses, because they have nothing else to do.
 
Never said that Epic’s refund policy was dodgy.

I said that Apple has no guarantee over Epic’s doings.

Just like your bathroom renovations company has no guarantee that a customer’s shower will be installed correctly if an unknown, 3rd party does it.
OMG the claim from the apple side is about privacy and security ok
However as this relates to epic then surely the claim is epic won’t be able to facilitate a refund on a digital transaction and also your security is at risk for using that unknown company called epic is essential the claim here
 
The amount of comments on here that are anti-business is honestly scary…

The idea that Apple can develop software, systems, the infrastructure to support, etc. but not be compensated for providing a marketplace for other companies to sell their apps is a strange argument. It’s also perplexing how Google and others have a lot of the same policies but don’t get the heat Apple does.

The argument for Apple is the same argument for Amazon. Amazon provides the marketplace, companies sell their goods via Amazon, Amazon gets a cut. It’s basic economics and makes sense.

People expecting Apple to just do stuff for free is insane, and not sustainable. Those data centers, the development tools, etc aren’t free for Apple to develop, build, and maintain. They are entitled to compensation for providing the marketplace!
It’s even worse when it comes to Google. Google gives all their tools for “free” in order to know who you are, where you are and what you are doing in order to serve you better ads.

Android phones are trojans horses build to give up your privacy. The fact that people spend money to own these devices boggles the mind.
 
OMG the claim from the apple side is about privacy and security ok
However as this relates to epic then surely the claim is epic won’t be able to facilitate a refund on a digital transaction and also your security is at risk for using that unknown company called epic is essential the claim here
The rest of this conversation is all yours. Have fun!
 
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Which IP are Apple referring to? Presumably it’s the same IP that is used to build apps like Uber and Lyft. Apple doesn’t get a cut of those transactions. Or what about purchases made via the browser? There’s no IP attached to Safari or any 3rd party browser in the App Store?
It was detailed in the original Epic ruling.


See Page 65-67
Apple’s IAP or “in-app purchasing” system is a collection of software programs working together to perform several functions at once in the specific context of a transaction on a digital device. Apple uses the system to manage transactions, payments, and commissions within the App Store, but it also uses the system in other “stores” on iOS devices, such as “the iTunes Store on iOS, Apple Music, iCloud or Cloud services” and “physical retail stores”.325 The system is not something that is bought or sold.
IAP is not integrated into the App Store itself, even though it is integrated into an iOS device.326 By “integrated,” the Court only means that the application has been engineered specifically to work seamlessly on the device. Neither side focused on the engineering to find otherwise.
More specifically, Apple’s IAP, as used here, is a secured system which tracks and verifies digital purchases, then determines and collects the appropriate commission on those transactions. In this regard, the system records all digital sales by identifying the customer and their payment methods, tracking and accumulating transactions; and conducts fraud-related checks. IAP simultaneously provides information to consumers so that they can view their purchase history, share subscriptions with family members and across devices, manage spending by implementing parental controls, and challenge and restore purchases.
Apple also intends the system to provide the customer with a single interface which can be used, and trusted, with respect to all purchases regardless of the developer. Importantly, the system has become more sophisticated over time, but the record does not detail the various
versions. Notably the IAP system requires developers to independently verify delivery of in- app purchasing content; it cannot verify that kind of delivery itself.
With respect to the commission and the transfer of money between a developer and both Apple and the consumer, Apple engages third-party payment processors.329 Given the volume of transactions at issue, Apple pays those processors somewhere in the range of one to two percent.
The Court agrees that simple payment processing can occur outside of IAP and plaintiff points to examples of this happening in 2009. 331 However, those examples only concern simple payment processing, not all the functionality outlined in the preceding paragraph, including the functionality to ensure Apple received its commission. Nor do the examples show that Apple was waiving its commission for those developers. Rather, in December 2008, the product was new, so, by definition, in flux.
Epic Games ignores this other functionality to argue that Apple merely “matches” developers to consumers; a “matching” service.332 This statement is partially true, but Apple has never argued that it levies a commission merely because it matches the developers with the customers. Apple argues that it uses this model to monetize its intellectual property against the entire suite of functions as well as to pay for the 80% of all apps which are free and generate no direct revenue stream from the developers other than the annual $99.00 developer fee.
Creating a seamless system to manage all its e-commerce was not an insignificant feat. Further, expanding it to address the scale of the growth required a substantial investment, not to
mention the constant upgrading of the cellphones to allow for more sophisticated apps.333 Under current e-commerce models, even plaintiff’s expert conceded that similar functionalities for other digital companies were not separate products.334 Under all models, Apple would be entitled to a commission or licensing fee, even if IAP was optional.335 Payment processors have the ability to provide only one piece of the functionality. There is no evidence that they can provide the balance. Thus, the Court finds Epic Games has not shown that IAP is a separate and distinct product.336
What the judge essentially ruled here is that Apple's IP is the technology undergirding its IAP system that Apple is entitled to monetize in whatever reasonable way that it sees fit.

Also, on page 150,
Second, if Apple could no longer require developers to use IAP for digital transactions, Apple’s competitive advantage on security issues, in the broad sense, see supra Facts § V.B.2.a., would be undermined and ultimately could decrease consumer choice in terms of smartphone devices and hardware.
Third, but to a lesser extent, the use of different payment solutions for each app may reduce the quality of the experience for some consumers by denying users the centralized option of managing a single account through IAP. This would harm both consumers and developers by weakening the quality of the App Store to those that value this centralized system.
Thus, the Court concludes that Apple’s restrictions as to its IAP and separate payment processors do not violate Section 1 of the Sherman Act.
IAP is more than just a payment processor (contrary to people arguing that ought to reduce its cut from 30% to 3% to match Mastercard and Visa).

In summary, the law is on Apple's side when it comes to them requiring developers to use their IAP system for in-app purchases. Or at least it was until Judge Yvonne did an about-face and ruled otherwise, which is exactly what Apple is fighting to overturn right now.
 
The amount of comments on here that are anti-business is honestly scary…

The idea that Apple can develop software, systems, the infrastructure to support, etc. but not be compensated for providing a marketplace for other companies to sell their apps is a strange argument. It’s also perplexing how Google and others have a lot of the same policies but don’t get the heat Apple does.

The argument for Apple is the same argument for Amazon. Amazon provides the marketplace, companies sell their goods via Amazon, Amazon gets a cut. It’s basic economics and makes sense.

People expecting Apple to just do stuff for free is insane, and not sustainable. Those data centers, the development tools, etc aren’t free for Apple to develop, build, and maintain. They are entitled to compensation for providing the marketplace!
Epic never said that apple shouldn’t get a % for an IAP transaction

You do understand that there is a difference in apple’s business model compared with Amazon’s

You do understand why google and Samsung for example are not getting the same flack as Apple and it’s not manly to do with being successful it’s also to do with individuals
 
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