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Yet you just don't know. Ignorance is bliss I guess.

Honestly your line of argumentation makes no business sense, especially when referring to a supplier. Solo developer or not.
It makes perfect sense to me too.

What he’s saying in effect is “I’m happy with the status quo, and the introduction of changes to the model has a high likelihood of increasing my costs/reducing my revenue, so I don’t think the status quo should change so large companies can avoid paying Apple and pocket the difference.”

For example, in a universe where Apple significantly raises the $99 annual fee or starts charging apps for bandwidth because it can no longer use the 15/30% cut to fund the App Store, that is worse for a significant number of developers, and results in fewer free apps and more expensive paid apps, which is worse for users.

Or, in a universe where sideloading is forced onto Apple, maybe pirating becomes as easy it is on Android, and independent developers lose significant sales and malware becomes an issue on iOS. Netflix and Spotify don’t care because it doesn’t impact them, but it makes things worse for Apple, iOS users, and most developers.

Or maybe the big spenders cut to outside payments, but currently they in effect finance review, security, SDKs, APIs, and discovery that all developers use, and that bill still will have to be paid. Apple will either reprice with higher fixed fees or paid platform services, or it will fund less review and security. Either option harms smaller developers and degrades the user experience.

I think many “open Apple up” proponents posting here severely underestimate the chances that it makes things worse for almost everyone.
 
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PayPal also has a fixed fee, depending on transaction type and some percentages are higher than 2.9% and additional fees for international transactions. Paddle is 5% plus 50 cents so an app selling for 5 Eur is already at 15%, cheaper apps are even higher.

If you make international sales, tax compliance can get quite complex and no doubt most developers would find it difficult to comply.

Apple's 15% doesn't look to bad in that context for small developers.

Everyone knows payment systems charge transaction fees — that’s fair. But Apple’s model is uniquely punishing. For solo developers and micro-businesses under $1M in sales, the 15% App Store commission might seem acceptable. If you want to net $5, you just set your price at $5.99 in Apple’s tiers. Simple enough.

The problem begins when you succeed. The moment your sales pass 1M units, Apple’s fee jumps to 30%. That’s not a small adjustment, it doubles your commission rate overnight. Unless you’ve priced your product higher from the very beginning (e.g., $7.99 instead of $5.99), your per-unit revenue collapses beyond that threshold. And yet, raising prices later risks putting you at a disadvantage against competitors ... including Apple!

So yes, Apple’s 15% “small business program” is useful and makes for good PR — but it’s a short-term illusion. The second you break through, Apple model punishes success instead of enabling it. That’s not just bad for ones business — it’s bad for innovation and competition.

Now, I understand that the priority of small devs is not to think ... "What happens when I succeed?". You know, If they eventually hit the viral jackpot, even if for short term. They are too busy trying to make it. Granted.

Except for the gaming sector, which accounts for 75% of App Store revenue, big players pay almost nothing to Apple. Adobe, Microsoft and so on have their own fill blown customer channels attached to branding. Then we have big player whose business model is based on Ads, also pay next to nothing. In those sectors medium sized companies are the ones that bring the actual revenue, but their success gets penalized as explained above.

PS: Contrast this model with platforms like Paddle paired with say AWS. They charge a consistent fee whether you sell one unit or two million. You don’t get penalized for selling more. On top of that, Paddle handles VAT internationally and invoice also, removing the tier complexity that Apple forces you to live with. Now you need to factor also the cost of hosting ... but you know that say for 50TB data transfer, say for your 50-100MB app on AWS S3 or Cloudflare R2, storage + bandwidth might run you $500–$1,500/month. For small volume sales this might not look competitive, but as I've said for hight volume ... are you sure? That is why most of the noise come from successful and sustainable businesses, not small shops and solo developers that still want to get there. The one that succeed actually understand that their success comes from their hard work. There no silver bullet success, not one gives customers, App Store, Amazon, no one ... you need to go and get them, marketing, exposure and if work with volume goods than yoiwn supply chain investment and engineering is key ... very little else.
 
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Oh really? I can install a different OS on my iPhone? I thought Apple was blocking that

You can buy a different phone. Simpla as that.

That is why most of the noise come from successful and sustainable businesses, not small shops that still want to get there.

Which is why this is not a fight over what is right but who gets a bigger cut of the pie. Apple's user base and products enabled developers to become very successful, and once they ar Apple gets a bigger cut; and for subscriptions it's only 15% the first year.

I see nothing unreasonable about Apple having tiered fees. EPIC does the same.

My point is, that you still need to carry taxation costs yourself. Whether you are willing to externalize international taxation work or not should not be tied to you ability to sell your product. Imagine you are selling your service only to the US, why pay the cost? That is tying who two very distinct services.

Hardly, it's still the same service just for various jurisdictions.

…a choice that is only made every couple of years.

They can change whenever they feel the competition is a better deal, Apple is not stopping them.
 
For example, in a universe where Apple significantly raises the $99 annual fee or starts charging apps for bandwidth because it can no longer use the 15/30% cut to fund the App Store, that is worse for a significant number of developers, and results in fewer free apps and more expensive paid apps, which is worse for users.
Such universe (where they “can no longer support it for financial reasons”) couldn’t be farther from reality.
But maybe they should stop giving away their storage and bandwidth for basically free even to their largest consumers (developers with apps using it) to monopolise the market.

It’s reality. A developer can develop for whatever system they want, no one forces them to chose iOS
…just as human beings can choose to eat or drink nothing.
A developer business can‘t choose freely what platforms to support and develop for - the market reality often dictates it.

And the whole point of antitrust and completion regulation is to look at the realities of markets - not merely theoretical choice.

It‘s not about free will or freedom to do what one wants. It‘s to balance the interests of the less powerful against the interests of the most powerful (monopolists, companies with the greatest market/monopoly power)., enabling and maintaining competition even when and where the most powerful try to suppress to.
 
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lol. You can use the hardware anyway you like.
You can put it in your pocket. You can hold it in your hand.
You can drop it in the toilet.
You can run it over with your lawn mower.
There are so many things you can do with the hardware.

YET!!!!!

Your issue isn’t the hardware you bought, but the software license you readily agreed to when you went through that hardware’s set up phase!!!!

I am sure some tech savvy person could show you how to flash iOS off the hardware that would then allow you to install an OS that is more open to what you are looking for…

Just curious, have you tried taking that route?
Im not saying I have any issues with the way Apple does things. I'm saying from a regulatory point of view, that is the root of their problem.

If I ever want something more open I'll just move to a different platform. But a regulators job is to make sure the option is still there in the future instead of the players in the market colluding to erode consumer choice as they are fond of doing. So Apple has to choose their poison so to speak, they give in to allowing people to install things that they want or they lose their control over the app store. This is a descriptive claim, not an endorsement.
 
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Such universe (where they “can no longer support it for financial reasons”) couldn’t be farther from reality.
But maybe they should stop giving away their storage and bandwidth for basically free even to their largest consumers (developers with apps using it) to monopolise the market.
I assume your point is that "Apple can just eat the cost." Would you truly be satisfied if Apple reduced the fees to zero for everyone and just ate the cost of everything they do? Or would you still insist that third-party stores and sideloading should be forced onto iOS? I suspect it's the latter, but please correct me if I'm wrong. If I'm correct and you still demand third-party stores, having Apple run the store at breakeven by subsidizing it with hardware profits is exactly the kind of anticompetitive behavior regulators go after all the time. You really think the EU wouldn't say "Apple is illegally keeping their prices low to strangle App Store competition they didn't want to allow in the first place?" Come on.

The commission you think is outrageous is, in the real world, the industry standard across all major platforms/app stores (Play Store, PlayStation, Nintendo, Steam, Amazon, Xbox, Samsung, etc.) and is about far more than just storage and bandwidth, as noted in the posts above. I'd add that Apple's model takes into account the lessons we learned from the PC era and has resulted in a platform that is significantly safer and more secure than its predecessors, competitors and is better for end users and (given, as you often remind me, Apple's outsized share of mobile app transactions compared to their market share) developers at large. Sure some devs don’t want to pay because they don't think they get value out of things like "users feel safe buying things in app", or "easy cancellations", or think they should be able to free ride because they're special, but if you're monetizing inside someone else’s platform, you play by the platform’s rules. Doesn't matter if someone monetizing a physical product has different rules than you do. Just like stores have to abide by their landlords' rules, and it doesn't matter that some other store got a better/different deal than you did. If you don't like the rules, go elsewhere.

And despite your protestations otherwise, developers and users who dislike Apple's rules absolutely have options. Don’t like Apple’s terms? Use the web (like Netflix/Spotify), focus on Android, or push purchases outside the app. If the argument is "I need iOS’s user base and in-app conversion" then you’re conceding Apple created platform value. Charging for use of that platform (one-tap payments, refunds, parental controls, trusted distribution, an environment where users feel safe installing software etc.) is reasonable. If you don’t want that, push signups to the web or target Android instead.

Finally, for the 500th time, just because you declare the relevant market is "iOS apps" and declaring Apple has a monopoly on apps doesn't make it true any more than declaring the relevant market is "Big Macs" and then declaring McDonalds has a monopoly on hamburgers. Developers and users have other options. Sure, if you insist on eating at McDonalds, then yeah, McDonalds has a monopoly on hamburgers. But that's only because you decided to walk into McDonalds instead of the other options you had. You can throw up "it costs money to switch" or "there are only two platforms" all you want, but there is absolutely platform competition, the platforms have different models, and the closed model should be allowed to exist even if you or regulators ideologically opposed to closed ecosystems disagree.
 
Would you truly be satisfied if Apple reduced the fees to zero for everyone and just ate the cost of everything they do?
Pretty much, yes.
Of course, I also believe freedom (the freedom to install self-made apps) is very important for general-purpose computers. Everything else is Orwellian.
If I'm correct and you still demand third-party stores, having Apple run the store at breakeven by subsidizing it with hardware profits is exactly the kind of anticompetitive behavior regulators go after all the time. You really think the EU wouldn't say "Apple is illegally keeping their prices low to strangle App Store competition
The reverse is just as true:

Apple offering all those free-to-download apps below cost not only subsidises their hardware business.
It also cements their anticompetitive monopoly over iOS apps, and smartphone apps more generally.
Both are main contributors to why third-party alternative operating systems and platforms aren't emerging.

👉 Solution: make them compete on both markets.

The commission you think is outrageous is, in the real world, the industry standard across all major platforms/app stores (Play Store, PlayStation, Nintendo, Steam, Amazon, Xbox, Samsung, etc.)
You conveniently forgot about the Epic games store. And Microsoft's store - arguably the (2nd?) most widely installed.
And for general purpose operating systems, neither Microsoft nor Apple on macOS force developer to monetise apps through their in-app purchasing system.

There are alternatives to the 30% commission Apple enforces.

Sure some devs don’t want to pay because they don't think they get value out of things like "users feel safe buying things in app", or "easy cancellations",
Apple is free to market the heck out of their Store's benefits and advantages. In fact, I believe they should. In a competitive environment.

Just like stores have to abide by their landlords' rules, and it doesn't matter that some other store got a better/different deal than you did. If you don't like the rules, go elsewhere.
Regardless of how often people draw that particular comparison to landlords:
No two landlords have the market power and control 95% and more of their types of dwellings or business space.

👉 If and once mobile operating system and app markets are similarly concentrated as the markets for living and business spaces, I'll be the first one to agree with you and say:

"The hell with government overregulation - let Apple operate how they please!"

Finally, for the 500th time, just because you declare the relevant market is "iOS apps" and declaring Apple has a monopoly on apps doesn't make it true any more than declaring the relevant market is "Big Macs" and then declaring McDonalds has a monopoly on hamburgers. Developers and users have other options. Sure, if you insist on eating at McDonalds, then yeah, McDonalds has a monopoly on hamburgers. But that's only because you decided to walk into McDonalds instead of the other options you had.
...and because walking into McDonald's is free.
So is walking into Burger King or KFC tomorrow.

👉 Customer's ability and costs to switch are crucial for the competitive environment in fast food markets.

Again, if it cost, say, $500 to switch from eating McDonald's to any other brand of burger tomorrow (and hours to get accustomed to it), I'd certainly advocate for more government regulation in food markets.
You can throw up "it costs money to switch" or "there are only two platforms" all you want, but there is absolutely platform competition
Once a customer has bought an iPhone - or an Android phone - there is absolutely no platform competition for the apps they buy.
 
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Pretty much, yes.
Of course, I also believe freedom (the freedom to install self-made apps) is very important for general-purpose computers. Everything else is Orwellian.
Freedom cuts both ways. You want the freedom to install anything; Apple wants the freedom to set terms for software using its IP that is distributed inside its OS. Preferring a curated platform isn’t “Orwellian” it’s a product choice. If you want alternate app stores and sideloading, Android exists; if you want curation, iOS exists. That’s freedom in a market. What’s Orwellian is taking that choice say and declaring “Consumers now have more choice” when they’ve in fact had choice removed from them.

Also, calling the iPhone a “general-purpose computer” is creating a distinction when none exists. For example, my PS5 runs Netflix and Spotify and still gates distribution. Why can Sony ban the Epic game store and Epic to pay 30%, but when Apple does that it’s an absurd fee that is anticompetitive and must be banned.

Where would you put smart TVs, set-top boxes, or even ChromeOS? They all run broad app categories and still gate distribution. If “general-purpose” forced open stores, you’d be arguing to crack open half the consumer electronics market.

The reverse is just as true:

Apple offering all those free-to-download apps below cost not only subsidises their hardware business.
It also cements their anticompetitive monopoly over iOS apps, and smartphone apps more generally.
Both are main contributors to why third-party alternative operating systems and platforms aren't emerging.

👉 Solution: make them compete on both markets.
Again, there is no "anticompetive monopoly" no matter how much you wish there was. Having 100% control inside your own platform != having monopoly power in the market. By your logic, every console maker is a monopolist. Antitrust looks at alternatives and those exist.

And as far as “why there’s no third competitor” goes, you’re mixing cause and effect. Third-party platforms haven’t failed because Apple lets free apps ride “below cost.” They’ve failed because consumers didn’t want them and developers didn’t follow (see: Windows Phone, BlackBerry 10, Firefox OS, Sailfish, etc.) not because “Apple didn’t charge free apps for bandwidth.”

For proof, look at the PC market. There is no significant third alternative to Mac and Windows (and I say this as someone who actually uses Linux). Can’t blame the App Store for that.

You conveniently forgot about the Epic games store. And Microsoft's store - arguably the (2nd?) most widely installed.
And for general purpose operating systems, neither Microsoft nor Apple on macOS force developer to monetise apps through their in-app purchasing system.
Epic famously is losing money on their store. 12% isn't profitable. Sure, Microsoft charges 15% on Windows where they are fighting almost 50 years of “open” precedent, but they charged 30% on Windows Mobile. I think both of these show that the 15%/30% Apple charges is a fair deal, particularly when you consider that if you were correct about Apple’s prices being too high due to lack of competition, prices on the Play Store would be lower. But they’re not, and it completely blows apart your argument.

And yes, as I pointed out, we learned lessons from the PC era, and tighter controls come with significant benefits to end users. Different platforms designed for different things, one of which was designed from the ground up to be more restrictive after seeing the issues regular users dealt with under the “open for all” system.

There are alternatives to the 30% commission Apple enforces.
I agree. Which is why we don’t need the government interfering in the free market. Those who don’t like Apple’s rules have other options.

We are here because a few large developers are upset that a profitable subset of consumers prefer the platform that has stricter rules and charges for use of their property, without realizing the rules and fees are a large part of WHY that profitable subset choose that platform. There are other options, the developers just don’t want to take them because they think they deserve access to Apple’s platform and the trust Apple built with users without paying for it.

Apple is free to market the heck out of their Store's benefits and advantages. In fact, I believe they should. In a competitive environment.
Again, it’s already a competitive environment. You’re just declaring it’s not because you don’t like your choices.

Regardless of how often people draw that particular comparison to landlords:
No two landlords have the market power and control 95% and more of their types of dwellings or business space.
Irrelevant. Market concentration doesn’t erase property rights. Even if there are only two major mobile platforms, each still should be allowed to set the rules for software distributed inside its own OS, just like PlayStation/Xbox on consoles or Visa/Mastercard on their networks, Just because there are two big players does not mean both platforms must be open and free to use like some sort of quasi public utility, particularly when one has spent 20 years using its closed nature as a selling point and the other is open.

...and because walking into McDonald's is free.
So is walking into Burger King or KFC tomorrow.

👉 Customer's ability and costs to switch are crucial for the competitive environment in fast food markets.

Again, if it cost, say, $500 to switch from eating McDonald's to any other brand of burger tomorrow (and hours to get accustomed to it), I'd certainly advocate for more government regulation in food markets.
By that logic PS5 is a monopoly because switching to Xbox costs $500. Competition does not mean zero switching cost; it means credible alternatives. Consoles are competitive, and so are phones. Yet you don’t advocate for the EU or DOJ to regulate video game consoles. It’s only a problem when Apple does it. Why?

Once a customer has bought an iPhone - or an Android phone - there is absolutely no platform competition for the apps they buy.
After you buy a phone, you still have channel competition (web vs in-app) and periodic platform competition at upgrade. Calling that “absolutely no competition” ignores how apps and users actually behave.

By that logic there’s ‘no competition’ in the console market. In reality: most games ship on PS5 and Xbox (multi-home), you can buy games/currency on the web or at retailers and redeem on console (channel competition), and you can pick a different platform at the next upgrade. Mobile is the same: iOS vs Android at purchase, web vs in-app for transactions, and switching at upgrade.
 
I assume your point is that "Apple can just eat the cost."

You assume wrongly. I have no issue with Apple being paid fairly for the products and services it creates. Like any other company, Apple should compete on features and price in the App Store. And yes, I recognize that some services are uniquely integrated into their platforms in ways third parties cannot easily match, for legitimate technical or security reasons, this should of course come by default.

But take, NFC. It is a core technology advertised as part of the product that customers purchase with their device. Yet, for years, Apple locked NFC access exclusively to Apple Pay. That meant the only way to use a feature already built into the hardware you bought was to go through Apple, and to pay Apple. If not directly, then indirectly through fees tied the OEM payment system.

That is not competition. That is Apple using its gatekeeping power over users devices to block innovation, restrict consumer choice, and extract rent from a capability that was already in the customer’s hands. When a company leverages control over essential hardware to force users into its own services, it’s no longer “getting paid for what it does”, it’s preventing customer from using their device capabilities in order to collect further fees and protect their revenue by impairing competition.

Gladly in the EU that practice in the NFC context ended. I now services that are actually better in the EU region then the basic Apple offer. Unfortunately it took a decade but the phone cameras were so good ...

Am I suppose to assume that Apple does not get payed in the macOS devices & services business?
 
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You assume wrongly. I have no issue with Apple being paid fairly for the products and services it creates. Like any other company, Apple should compete on features and price in the App Store. And yes, I recognize that some services are uniquely integrated into their platforms in ways third parties cannot easily match, for legitimate technical or security reasons, this should of course come by default.
To be clear, that quote was intended for @AppliedMicro, who seemed to imply that Apple wouldn't have to raise prices on developers if the 15/30% commission went away.

But take, NFC. It is a core technology advertised as part of the product that customers purchase with their device. Yet, for years, Apple locked NFC access exclusively to Apple Pay. That meant the only way to use a feature already built into the hardware you bought was to go through Apple, and to pay Apple. If not directly, then indirectly through fees tied the OEM payment system.
Apple didn’t lock down NFC just to “extract rent.” Locking down NFC on iPhone gave Apple the leverage to force a single, predictable, secure wallet experience. That uniformity is what made “tap with your iPhone/Watch and it just works” credible to banks and, more importantly, to normal people. In a world where every bank could ship its own NFC wallet on iOS, you almost certainly get fragmentation, slower bank buy-in, higher fraud risk during provisioning, and a clunkier user experience. It absolutely accelerated the mainstream adoption of contactless payments, which is good for users.

For proof, just look at what happened on Android. There was a ton of “which app pays?” confusion, inconsistent risk rules, some apps worked at some terminals but not others, multiple wallets, inconsistent user experience, carrier politics blocking certain wallets from devices - all which was terrible for users and led people to not use the features. And it stayed like that until Google could point at Apple Pay and say "see - this is how it needs to happen." Apple’s approach traded developer/bank freedom for a faster, simpler, safer user experience and the leverage to get broad issuer buy-in quickly which was a massive win for consumers.

That is not competition. That is Apple using its gatekeeping power over users devices to block innovation, restrict consumer choice, and extract rent from a capability that was already in the customer’s hands. When a company leverages control over essential hardware to force users into its own services, it’s no longer “getting paid for what it does”, it’s preventing customer from using their device capabilities in order to collect further fees and protect their revenue by impairing competition.
Two problems with that framing. First, “leveraging control over essential hardware” assumes NFC is some neutral utility that must be exposed to any app. It isn’t. Apple sells, and has always sold, an integrated product. In Apple's integrated product, the payment flow is a system feature tied to the secure element, biometrics, Find My, privacy, etc. That’s product design. Competition happens at the device/OS level: if you prefer an open NFC model, Android has offered it for years. This idea that even though Apple advertises and sells an integrated product it must open up like Android ridiculous. It's government picking winners and losers.

Secondly, if third-party NFC wallets were a clearly better deal for consumers, nothing stopped developers and banks from proving it on Android. The could have built an amazing experience that attracted switchers and forced Apple’s hand. But we didn’t see broad user migration or bank wallets beating the system wallet at scale; in fact, it was a clunky mess that actually slowed adoption. In other words, the market signaled that a single, OS-level wallet with consistent UX, security, and support is what most people prefer.

Gladly in the EU that practice in the NFC context ended. I now services that are actually better in the EU region then the basic Apple offer. Unfortunately it took a decade but the phone cameras were so good ...

I couldn't disagree more strongly. When Australian banks tried to band together to force iPhone NFC access, their competition regulator there explicitly rejected it because, warning it would likely reduce or distort competition. Opening up NFC isn't an automatic "consumers win" or "competition wins." The EU discounts that possibility entirely, but given their track record of bungling tech regulations they really shouldn't.

I don't think it's a good thing the EU is dictating to any company how their hardware or software works. Apple knows better than a bunch of bureaucrats in Brussels who think user experience should take a backseat to their misguided opinion on what competition is, particularly when their approach has strangled innovation in their market, actively harms security and privacy of its citizens, takes choice away from consumers with an Orwellian "less choice is more choice!" slogan, actively made the user experience of browsing the web worse on virtually every device on the planet, and crashed half the entire internet for days.

All they need to do is look at what happened before Apple Pay on the Android side to see the errors of their ways, but again, they don't care about end users or user experience as long as their definition of competition is imposed on everyone.

If Apple had done what the EU wanted from the start, there likely wouldn't be a good reason for NFC in the phone at all because Apple Pay wouldn't have gotten off the ground and contactless payments would look like the wasteland of confusion it was on the Android side until Apple showed people how it should be done.

Am I suppose to assume that Apple does not get payed in the macOS devices & services business?
Again, macOS is a different platform that was designed in an era where the internet didn't exist and software had to be physically installed. It was created and grew up in a PC world where power users and developers routinely install software from anywhere; iOS was built for a much larger, more mainstream, always-connected audience. iOS was designed from the ground up to be locked down and famously didn't originally even allow third party apps at all.

iOS was built in part after learning from the mistakes of the platforms that come before it. It also has an order of magnitude more users than macOS (~100m on Mac vs. ~1-2b on iOS). Entirely reasonable the approach that is taken for one isn't appropriate for the other.
 
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Answer this then: Why do Sony, Microsoft, and Nintendo get to take 30% from every developer without pushback from you or Epic or anyone else?

Let me guess, you’re going to say: The difference is physical sales, right? “They don’t have a monopoly because I can choose to buy a physical copy from any retailer I want”. Are you really going to tell me the developer gets to skip the 30% cut because they do a physical release?
The cost to the developer is likely more than 30%. Physical distribution also incurs costs at the retailer, shipper, and who knows who else levels.

And once the game is installed, Sony, MS, Nintendo will take their cut of any IAP.

But it is not the physical media that usually comes up when game consoles are discussed. It the fact that the consoles are sold below cost as a loss leader. First, I doubt that is true anymore. And, more importantly, who the hell cares? That loss leader price point was the console maker's business decision. They knew selling the console for a few bucks cheaper would more than pay for itself from services fees.

edit - typo
 
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You assume wrongly. I have no issue with Apple being paid fairly for the products and services it creates. Like any other company, Apple should compete on features and price in the App Store. And yes, I recognize that some services are uniquely integrated into their platforms in ways third parties cannot easily match, for legitimate technical or security reasons, this should of course come by default.

But take, NFC. It is a core technology advertised as part of the product that customers purchase with their device. Yet, for years, Apple locked NFC access exclusively to Apple Pay. That meant the only way to use a feature already built into the hardware you bought was to go through Apple, and to pay Apple. If not directly, then indirectly through fees tied the OEM payment system.

That is not competition. That is Apple using its gatekeeping power over users devices to block innovation, restrict consumer choice, and extract rent from a capability that was already in the customer’s hands. When a company leverages control over essential hardware to force users into its own services, it’s no longer “getting paid for what it does”, it’s preventing customer from using their device capabilities in order to collect further fees and protect their revenue by impairing competition.

Gladly in the EU that practice in the NFC context ended. I now services that are actually better in the EU region then the basic Apple offer. Unfortunately it took a decade but the phone cameras were so good ...

Am I suppose to assume that Apple does not get payed in the macOS devices & services business?
While I don't agree with all of the NFC policies in the past. Just because a physical component (NFC in this case) is present in the hardware does not mean that the manufacturer of said device must use it or open it up for others to use.

Case in point - for years Home Depot and Lowe's POSs had NFC capability but the manufacturer decided to provide the ability to enable it or not. I'm sure they did that to make it easier on themselves so they didn't have to build two versions: one with NFC that may be used or not at the purchaser's discretion, and one without NFC for ... WalMart.

They could just as easily built one POS platform and loaded software permanently disabling the NFC and tried to sell that version to WalMart.

You bought an iPhone. You bought a physical device that is comprised of parts assembled and configured to work as the manufacturer designed. You did not buy a box of parts preassembled in one form yet enabling you to reconfigure their functionality from the original design. I'd venture that almost every device you own, assuming there are multiple variants, all have the same components inside only some are disabled in software or via manufacture (internal switch or PCB printing variants).
 
Case in point - for years Home Depot and Lowe's POSs had NFC capability but the manufacturer decided to provide the ability to enable it or not. I'm sure they did that to make it easier on themselves so they didn't have to build two versions: one with NFC that may be used or not at the purchaser's discretion, and one without NFC for ... WalMart.
The only reason for that: WalMart purposely disabling NFC/Tap to pay, to push people to their own Walmart payment system. That's despite Mastercard and VISA requiring it in new terminals.

Walmart only got away with it due to their size and market power.
As @Nuno Lopes said:

It's just Walmart using its market power to block innovation, restrict consumer choice and extract rent, preventing customers from using their device (and the POS terminal's) capabilities in order to collect further fees and protect their revenue by impairing competition."
 
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While I don't agree with all of the NFC policies in the past. Just because a physical component (NFC in this case) is present in the hardware does not mean that the manufacturer of said device must use it or open it up for others to use.

Case in point - for years Home Depot and Lowe's POSs had NFC capability but the manufacturer decided to provide the ability to enable it or not. I'm sure they did that to make it easier on themselves so they didn't have to build two versions: one with NFC that may be used or not at the purchaser's discretion, and one without NFC for ... WalMart.

They could just as easily built one POS platform and loaded software permanently disabling the NFC and tried to sell that version to WalMart.

You bought an iPhone. You bought a physical device that is comprised of parts assembled and configured to work as the manufacturer designed. You did not buy a box of parts preassembled in one form yet enabling you to reconfigure their functionality from the original design. I'd venture that almost every device you own, assuming there are multiple variants, all have the same components inside only some are disabled in software or via manufacture (internal switch or PCB printing variants).

Apple is the manufacturer and the capability was advertised to the market. It's part of the device hardware specs much like the camera megapixels are. Did Apple allowed the user to be able to enable or disable the NFC? No. It hidden it behind a service, Apple Pay and collected fees for its use. So it seams you are going sideways with your example.

The second part has little to do with the first part.

That is just one other instance were the market simple cleaned up the sophism.

More to come. It takes time, because the entire field used to be a minefield of those.
 
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The only reason for that: WalMart purposely disabling NFC/Tap to pay, to push people to their own Walmart payment system. That's despite Mastercard and VISA requiring it in new terminals.

Walmart only got away with it due to their size and market power.
As @Nuno Lopes said:

It's just Walmart using its market power to block innovation, restrict consumer choice and extract rent, preventing customers from using their device (and the POS terminal's) capabilities in order to collect further fees and protect their revenue by impairing competition."
And if I can’t use Apple Pay at Walmart I do t shop there. Market forces at work as they should work. If one believes Walmart blocks innovation, restricts choice and extracts rent (which it doesn’t, because it’s not the definition), than people can show elsewhere. But Walmart is doing well.
 
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Apple didn’t lock down NFC just to “extract rent.”

Yes. Exactly, it created a paywall around specific hardware components, requiring the user to pay more then once of it.

Look, I am not saying you will not find examples of others doing the same. But it does not look like fair play to the user and hasn't been common practice in personal computing.

I'm sure that if the iPhone was marketed has a Gaming Console that also makes calls would have sold far less. No one wanted that.

Instead ...
“Today, Apple is going to reinvent the phone. And here it is. An iPod, a phone, and an Internet communicator. An iPod, a phone … are you getting it? These are not three separate devices. This is one device. And we are calling it iPhone.”

“We think we’ve got the best distribution way to do it. We’re going to solve the problem of distribution for every developer, large and small.”

The App Store is going to be the exclusive way to distribute iPhone applications. Users can download them right onto their iPhones. It’s going to be the best way for developers to reach every iPhone user.”

“The developer picks the price. They get 70% of the revenues right off the top. We keep 30% to pay for running the App Store—credit card fees, hosting, marketing, distribution—it’s basically to cover our costs.”

Jobs sold the 30% fee as cost recovery, not profit extraction — positioning Apple as a benevolent distributor who took on all the heavy lifting so developers could just build apps. The reality is quite different. Not only is applied to Apps but to any money transaction regardless of its nature … Apple picks what transaction it charges a fee. And in my view uses its control to give competitive advantage to their apps and services now and in the future. I remember a time were VOIP as well Video Chat apps weren’t permitted because Apple wanted to compete in Video & Voice Chat. I remember a time when digital books weren’t also permitted because Apple wanted iBooks to succeed.

We all bought what they said both consumers and developers!

Yet so much has changed.

PeriodApple’s FramingKey Quote / MessageStrategic Goal
2008 (Launch – Steve Jobs)Cost recovery“We don’t intend to make money off the App Store… Developers keep 70%. We only keep 30% to cover credit card fees, hosting, distribution.”Convince developers the model is fair, friendly, and not about profit.
2010s (Growth Years)Industry standardApple emphasized that Steam, Xbox, PlayStation also charge 30%.Normalize the fee as “what everyone does,” reducing scrutiny.
2019–2020 (Pushback)Value justification“We provide security, a trusted marketplace, global distribution.” (Tim Cook in US Congress)Deflect criticism by highlighting Apple’s ecosystem benefits.
2021 (Regulatory pressure)Small developer support15% for devs under $1M revenue → framed as “helping small businesses.”Reduce regulatory heat while protecting 30% on large, profitable apps/games.
Today (2020s, EU/US scrutiny)Security & ecosystem defenseApple argues fees fund privacy, curation, fraud prevention.Protect 30% cut against antitrust claims by framing it as necessary for user trust.


But here is the thing. The profit margin of the App Store around 78% (revealed in court) That is a far cry from "it's just to cover costs". Now, I am not against profits at all. I believe any private company should be run for profit, it makes little sense otherwise. I'm glad Apple is run for profit and innovation. Yet if the context was say of a company talking with the Stock Exchange over how it is conducting their approach ... there would maybe arrests mate, I figure. If you have something good for the market and consumers no need for deflection.

False claims and deflection when it comes to App Store practices and charges baked in the device. Since its inception. No surprise that people Apple fans use the same kind of counter arguments. Defection, deflection, deflection and more deflection …

How do you guys conciliate fees basically to cover costs of running the App Store with a retail / agency program with 78% profit margin (as mentioned in court), with a draconian fee program in the EU, etc etc etc. No to mention practices favoring in house services. This is about what the company heads say to the market and what they did.

If they did what they said there would be probably no problem … no investigation into the practices, no regulation. People quickly noticed that was not the case yet turned a blind eye … oh it’s innovation. The thing needed to be taken to court to actually have a record that was not the case as a matter o fact.

Now deflect this all you want. The sad thing is that deflection is happening all over the place regarding all sorts of issues in economics, impacting society, people’s welfare and their financial ability. While only a few companies accumulate astronomical capital. Its became a game of who can deflect better.
 
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Yes. Exactly, it created a paywall around the device hardware, requiring the user to pay more then once of it.
Users aren’t paying twice to tap their phone. On iPhone, issuers pay a commercial fee when a card is tokenized and used with Apple Pay; consumers don’t get charged extra per tap. And opening low-level NFC to any bank/wallet app isn’t free. You’re exposing sensitive payment metadata (probably having it sold off to ad companies in a lot of cases - so actually paying twice) and widening the attack surface. Apple keeps the tap flow at the OS layer to enforce one secure element, one biometric flow, one privacy posture. That’s a benefit to consumers.

You also didn’t address the Australia precedent: when major banks tried to force iPhone NFC access, the competition regulator denied it as likely to reduce or distort competition. “Open by mandate” is not automatically pro-consumer, and just because the EU says something doesn’t make it true. They’ve screwed up tech regulations enough I don’t think they should be given the benefit of the doubt.

Look, I am not saying you will not find examples of others doing the same. But it does not look like fair play to the user and hasn't been common practice in personal computing.
It doesn’t look like fair play to you. But you, a tech enthusiast posting on MacRumors, don’t speak for all users. I’d add that just because something is “common practice” doesn’t mean it’s good for the user. I’d argue that the iOS model is better for the vast majority of Apple’s users. And if you don’t like it, there is choice!

PC norms don’t map cleanly to phones. On mobile, distribution is part of the product (sandboxing, review, parental controls, refunds, privacy disclosures). iOS trades some developer freedom for a safer, more consistent experience that mainstream users actually pick. And there is platform-level choice: Android has long allowed third-party stores, sideloading, and bank-run NFC wallets.

I'm sure that if the iPhone was marketed has a Gaming Console that also makes calls would have sold far less. No one wanted that.
Actually given games are far and away the highest grossing App Category on the App Store; I’m pretty sure it would have sold just as many. And, more to the point, the first iPhone sold well before native apps were allowed at all; adoption wasn’t contingent on an open distribution model. iOS has never been open, was not designed to be open, and shouldn’t be forced open when Android exists and is. Consumers who care have an option, who are you to take it from people who prefer it because you don’t want to use Android? Well I don’t want to use an open platform. What would you recommend I do? Why are your preferences more important than mine or the platform owners? Don’t you think that’s just a little selfish of you?

Jobs sold the 30% fee as cost recovery, not profit extraction — positioning Apple as a benevolent distributor who took on all the heavy lifting so developers could just build apps.
Notice Jobs also called it the “exclusive way to distribute iPhone applications” and (“basically” to cover costs) in your quote. Since Day 1. And a minority of users a developers have been screaming about that since Day 1. First, they said Apple was doomed and Android was going to eat their lunch because “open always wins.” Google ran ads about how much better Android was because it was open. Then, magically, all of a sudden, the exact same people started saying that Apple wasn’t doomed, that in fact being closed was so anticompetitive that regulators should force Apple open. And funny enough, those people usually have financial incentive to open Apple up. I don’t think my experience should be harmed so a bunch of developers can freeload on Apple’s work.

But here is the thing. The profit margin of the App Store around 78% (revealed in court) That is a far cry from "it's just to cover costs". Now, I am not against profits, but if the context was say of a company talking with the Stock Exchange over how it is conducting ... there would be arrests mate, I figure. False claims.

The “78% App Store margin” came from Epic’s expert in litigation. Apple disputed the math as misleading because the App Store is part of the broader iOS platform (shared costs, R&D, security, global infrastructure, etc.). A notably, and the trial court didn’t adopt that number as a finding of fact.

And the quote was “basically” to cover costs.

Do you really think Steve Jobs would be in favor of opening up the App Store? Lets look at the evidence:
  • He originally didn’t want apps at all. According to the Isaacson biography it was because he didn’t any third parties to “mess it up, infect it with viruses, or pollute its integrity.”
  • He was quoted as saying “we have a moral responsibility to keep porn off the iPhone… folks who want porn can buy an Android phone.”
  • In 2010 Jobs publicly and famously rejected Flash on iOS citing security holes, crashes, battery drain, poor touch support, and the risk of a third-party runtime sitting between Apple’s APIs and developers. He was called anticompetitive and regulators threatened to investigate. But the outcome vindicated the call: the industry shifted to HTML5, major sites dropped Flash, and Adobe killed it in 2020 due to security risk. Users got better stability, battery life, and safety.
 
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Notice Jobs also called it the “exclusive way to distribute iPhone applications” and (“basically” to cover costs) in your quote. Since Day 1.

Yes … and? I just wrote exactly SJ words. Why are you adding quotes around such as “basically”. Are you correcting SJ now? Why your choice was not instead of rewriting “basically” … why not “exclusive”?

Are you serious?

Nice deflection.

I have no idea what SJ thought for the future of Apple, just know what he said (Apple) back then and what Tim Cook did along time
 
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Users aren’t paying twice to tap their phone. On iPhone, issuers pay a commercial fee when a card is tokenized and used with Apple Pay

Apple Pay was basically the only way a user had to take advantage of the hardware he bought man. Not even Tile was able to use it until Apple came with their own copy of that product. The hardware was locked down by Apple. Users that bought for instance Tile had to use Bluetooth instead of the more effective NFC on their iPhones man for the purpose. So yes, user has to pay Apple more to take advantage of the hardware they bought, even if indirectly.

It’s well documented in history.

That as changed in the EU. You know what, for payments, here there are better digital services. Unfortunately iPhone user had to make a choice between having the very best camera phone and what could be best contactless payment system in their area. That is what ties do to the market and consumers.it conflates issues pressing the user to make exclusive choices over otherwise disparate things for the only benefit of the OEM.

Why are you doing this? Why so much deflection?

PS: You can still get porn through Safari man. Yes Steve Jobs thought that Web technology was good enough and would evolve to become the facto app standard backed by HTML5 and above.
 
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Whatever epic and Spotify has managed to earn in these few months from being able to offer their own in-app payment options, I hope it has been worth it.

The recent Google search ruling makes me cautiously optimistic that this ruling will eventually get overturned as well. Judge Yvonne was clearly out to get Apple, and while she may have been annoyed at Apple dragging its feet over steering rules, it doesn’t give her the right to impose a decision that was disproportionate to the issue at hand.

Ironically, it may be precisely because the ruling was so unhinged that it ends up helping Apple’s case ultimately.
 
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