Apple Says Epic Games 'Wants Us to Be Android, But We Don't Want to Be'

[hans1972]

Selectively permitting Netflix to have an app on the app store that does nothing unless you have an account with them and allowing them to not use Apple's billing system is 100% selective enforcement of the rules "because its Netflix", while other companies Apple doesn't care about or maybe compete directly with Apple's services are not allowed to do the same. This is a flagrant anti-trust violation.

I don't think that being selective with your business partners is necessary illegal.

Do you have an example of which someone lost an antitrust case because of this?

 

[JMacHack]

There’s literally a competitive OS which is open, has good phones, the majority of market share worldwide, and allows alternative stores and payment options.

The customers who buy iPhones are ones who like the walled garden approach. Those who don’t buy android and mock iPhone users as sheep. That’s the current situation and I really don’t see the problem with Apple having a “monopoly” on a platform that they developed, right down to the processor and sensors, along with the software to write programs for it and all the microcode to implement it.

This isn’t a case of railroad tycoons saying “use our trains or nothing.” There’s a perfectly fine competitor.

 

[DEMinSoCAL]

I think your example is also misleading. You can purchase anything that's for sale in Costco and Costco expect you to pay via their payment counter, but you can probably pay with cash/credit card/voucher/whatever the payment counter accepts. I think this is more app.

I was giving a hypothetical analogy at Costco that mirrors what Apple does with apps and payment.

 

[Td1970]

It's their system. Their product. Naturally, they have control. Monopolists they say but do you want other men to touch your wife?

Way to show respect for the ladies. Low class

 

[deevey]

No matter how this turns out there are many developers who owe Epic some gratitude. The press around this case pushed Apple to reduce the App Store share to 15% for smaller developers.

We don't know that for a fact, it might be that it's been in the works for a long time. Heck it might even come out at trial.

 

[Td1970]

Ive said this from the start, no one has ONCE complained about Sony and Microsoft doing the same with their stores on the Xbox and Playstation but Apple doing it is a problem.

I hate people who say they aren't doing this with bias but thats exactly what it is. ****ing idiots

Not even close. When Xbox or PlayStation has the same amount of users are iPhones. Them that argument works.
A smart phone is basically a necessity a gaming system isn’t

 

[deevey]

You can buy Fortnite V-Bucks gift cards at your local grocery store.

So clearly Epic has already figured out this "outside the App Store" thing...



View attachment 1769406

You forgot to mention the cut epic takes on those gift cards

 

[robco74]

Not even close. When Xbox or PlayStation has the same amount of users are iPhones. Them that argument works.
A smart phone is basically a necessity a gaming system isn’t

Look at the numbers from Epic, they make far more off of console users than smartphone users. Likely why they're going after Apple and Google first, rather than risking their biggest source of revenue.

 

[Act3]

That doesn't apply here since that is about discrimination. Apple isn't refusing to sell apps based on religious beliefs.

try reading the post I was replying to, it was about an owner of business making his or her rules

 

[Act3]

pretty sure Epic gaming has been better than apple's offerings or lack there of

so all these disagree votes, show me one game made by apple that is better than Epic games

 

[SuperMatt]

Wrong. Other developers CANNOT have an App that does nothing until something is purchased outside of Apple.

Amazon does this too.

Buy Books for Your Kindle App - Amazon Customer Service

Learn how to deliver Kindle books to your Kindle app.

www.amazon.com

Here’s a list of many apps that do that. Sorry, your statement is false.

You Download the App and it Doesn't Work

Examples of capriciousness in App Store policymaking.

youdownloadtheappanditdoesntwork.com

 

[Act3]

“I'm sorry I don't follow you. That's like saying 'how can an ant lift fifty times its body weight, but root beer floats are still delicious?'. Are the two even related?”

where does my statement say anything about being related? re read my post, it is pretty factual stand alone

 

[31 Flavas]

Not even close. When Xbox or PlayStation has the same amount of users are iPhones. Them that argument works.
A smart phone is basically a necessity a gaming system isn’t

You can use a different phone - you have countless other not-apple phones. If you need a mobile phone that makes phone calls and runs "necessary" apps like Twitter, Facebook, Snapchat, Spotify, or whatever else - you've got 100's of not-apple mobile phones.

But, you're arguing the technicality that it doesn't matter how large the rest of the entire competing Android market is. You're arguing that Apple is doing something that should be "illegal" and there for it doesn't matter how small or how niche Apple's market is. Well, if it doesn't matter how small or how niche Apple's market is - it doesn't matter how small or how niche Xbox or Playstations market is. You shouldn't be allowing or defending Xbox or Playstation's monopolization of their markets.

 

[Michael Scrip]

You forgot to mention the cut Epic takes on those gift cards

You mean the cut Epic gives to the retailer?

In this example... Epic is selling gift cards inside Walmart. The store (Walmart) gets a cut.

But this whole "Epic v. Apple" case is centered around the fact that Epic wants to sell product inside Apple's store... but they don't want to give Apple a cut.

It's weird.

 

[SuperMatt]

You mean the cut Epic gives to the retailer?

In this example... Epic is selling gift cards inside Walmart. The store (Walmart) gets a cut.

But this whole "Epic v. Apple" case is centered around the fact that Epic wants to sell product inside Apple's store... but they don't want to give Apple a cut.

It's weird.

I think the whole thing is a play for publicity. They’ve only sued one company (Apple) and not every other company that also charges a percentage to have the product in their store. Why don’t they sue credit card companies for charging a transaction fee too then?

 

[deevey]

You mean the cut Epic gives to the retailer?

In this example... Epic is selling gift cards inside Walmart. The store (Walmart) gets a cut.

But this whole "Epic v. Apple" case is centered around the fact that Epic wants to sell product inside Apple's store... but they don't want to give Apple a cut.

It's weird.

Exactly, a retailer takes a cut for product placement in their store. The model is exactly the same.

They pay a % to everyone for v-bucks purchases, but somehow Apple is different ?

 

[DeepWebinar]

In this particular context, EPIC broke their contract with Apple and sued. So I would side with Apple.

The only thing this case is about, Epic violated their contract with Apple. Its really that easy.

But if your stance on this is formed only from the idea that contracts Epic signed with Apple were broken, why do you care? I’m not trying to be rude, but if your reasoning isn’t to do with anything else, who cares about Apple getting contracts broken by some developer?

Do whatever you want with your device, no one is stopping you. What you (and Epic) are demanding is more than that, you are demanding that Apple HELP you do whatever you want with your device even if they’d rather spend their time and resources elsewhere. Additionally you are saying “I don’t care if there are advantages to Apples approach or if some people prefer it, I want it MY way and that’s the ONLY way that should be allowed!”

…just to placate a small number of people who do want it but are too entitled to just buy an Android phone that lets them do all that anyway?

Aside from that aspect of of it there is not wanting to reward Epics disingenuous and self serving behavior.
There is not wanting to set the precedent that eliminates companies like Apple from offering a choice in the kind of devices we can buy.
There is not wanting to reward the people who can’t seem to tell the difference between “I would prefer if Apple did this or that thing different” and “Apple must give me what I want or be forced to!”

Oi vey, where do I even start with you @Krizoitz? Your comment is absurd. First of all, no need for the condescending analysis of what I’m saying. It’s clear you don’t actually understand where I’m coming from at all, so your weak analysis that lead to the embarrassing swing and miss of a conclusion might be a good reminder to take a second before you tap out a comment.

Just because we see differently about this doesn’t make the people who disagree with you “entitled”. That’s a massive generalization and you’re completely mischaracterizing where I’m coming from. I’m not “demanding” anything, don’t paint my argument as if I’m a petulant child having a temper tantrum. The personal attacks are completely unnecessary, we’re talking about smartphones, take a breath and chill out.

Second, Apple is stopping us from having more control over what we do with our devices, that’s the whole point. If “no one” was stopping us from letting us do whatever we wanted like you say, then there wouldn’t be anything to talk about right now.

 

[DeepWebinar]

As you stated yourself, you aren't a person who tends to defend corporations. So I figure you, likewise, would be in favor of breaking up Apple-like control anywhere else it exists. And, likewise, would ask "What are the reasons for defending such companies that control their hardware like Apple does?"

Well, this exists with Sony, Microsoft, and Nintendo's own gaming hardware devices. Just to be sure, I'm asking would your views be applied equally where analogous?

If (anyone's) iPhone is their own device for them to use, customize, and download with what they care to -- Would not any Sony Playstation, Microsoft xBox, or Nintendo Switch, be someone's own personal device for them to use, customize, and download with what they care to?

Yes.

 

[ArtOfWarfare]

"A divorce is too much trouble for me, honey, so I'm suing you."

Suing your spouse and getting a divorce are basically the same thing.

This is more akin to getting together with your neighbors to sue your state, because that's possibly easier than just moving to a different state. Or unionizing. I generally argue against unionizing - in a functioning free market, it's way easier to just leave your employer for somebody else who doesn't suck, and so that incentivizes your employer to not suck. If, however, your employer has a monopoly and is the only person who could possibly employ you because they've driven out all the competition... well, then I guess you unionize. That's where we are with Apple. Our options are basically Apple, Android, or don't have a phone at all...

 

[31 Flavas]

Yes.

Thank you.

 

[mabhatter]

That is actually not a bad idea. The reason I went with iOS since the start and keep it as such was and is the App Store and it's security. I haven't heard of single malware for iOS vs hundreds for Android.

You don't read macrumors much. There are iOS malware that can get into individual developers XCode projects... then the project gets signed by Apple and posted in the App Store. But I don't think there is any malware that can "jump" from app to app yet.

 

[Michael Scrip]

I think the whole thing is a play for publicity. They’ve only sued one company (Apple) and not every other company that also charges a percentage to have the product in their store. Why don’t they sue credit card companies for charging a transaction fee too then?

Correction... two companies.

Epic is also suing Google for the exact same thing: app store payment policies.

But yes... they haven't targeted the Big 3 console makers... yet.

Epic Games Widens Fight Against Google With Australia Lawsuit

Epic Games Inc. filed a lawsuit against Google in Australia, widening a fight against the tech giant over the commissions charged in its app store.

www.bloomberg.com

 

[Analog Kid]

Suing your spouse and getting a divorce are basically the same thing.

You can file suit against people for many different reasons, divorce is one of them. Epic (or you) aren't suing Apple for a dissolution of their relationship, they want to force Apple to maintain that relationship but have iOS change its character.

If, however, your employer has a monopoly and is the only person who could possibly employ you because they've driven out all the competition... well, then I guess you unionize. That's where we are with Apple. Our options are basically Apple, Android, or don't have a phone at all...

You just showed that Apple hasn't driven out all the competition-- there is Android. You are asking to drive out competition by eliminating the only other currently viable model. And Android isn't monolithic-- there are choices within the Android ecosystem.

And, for what it's worth, I wouldn't sue to have Android prevent other app stores or side loading. Android is what it is.

 

[deevey]

You don't read macrumors much. There are iOS malware that can get into individual developers XCode projects... then the project gets signed by Apple and posted in the App Store. But I don't think there is any malware that can "jump" from app to app yet.

There was an issue back in 2015 which did affected published apps. I cant find anything since.

The latest malware was installed on MacOS computers using Xcode to compile the project using the code, not the published iOS apps.

Trojanized Xcode Project Slips MacOS Malware to Apple Developers

In a new campaign, threat actors are bundling macOS malware in trojanized Apple Xcode developer projects.

threatpost.com

 

[SuperMatt]

Correction... two companies.

Epic is also suing Google for the exact same thing: app store payment policies.

But yes... they haven't targeted the Big 3 console makers... yet.

Epic Games Widens Fight Against Google With Australia Lawsuit

Epic Games Inc. filed a lawsuit against Google in Australia, widening a fight against the tech giant over the commissions charged in its app store.

www.bloomberg.com

Thanks for the correction... my mistake.