Apple Says Epic Games 'Wants Us to Be Android, But We Don't Want to Be'

[31 Flavas]

Why am I forced to install app's through Appstore? If you want the exposure and convenience of using the App Store that's fine - but the fact I cannot install whatever software I want on my computer in my pocket is insane.
The same people defending Apple's POV here and the same people who would riot the streets and switch to Windows if Apple forced you to buy all software through App Store on Mac.

iOS devices are computers and should be treated as such.

Hm... I don't want to put words in your mouth.... But, something tells me that you'd find some excuse for the Sony Playstation and Microsoft's xBox -not- being computers despite the fact they're literally using PC parts that are just locked up.

Or would agree they are just regular computers and Sony, Microsoft (and Nintendo) should have to open them up to allow any owner to install any software and any developer to directly sell software downloads? (no required licensing, no required fees)

 

[SuperMatt]

Right. Because that’s what that means. Not caring about what happens in a legal case between Apple and some developer means I don’t care about any law or fairness right? Probably means I’d be totally fine with all kinds of things. Theft, murder, where does it end?? If we don’t move away from this greed of wanting to see our phone work differently and start caring about the interests of the most profitable company in the world, what next??? And you’ve properly identified that I’m the representative for my generation, so once I’m personally in charge, the future of the country is shot.

I mean, honestly, look at the conclusions you’re jumping to. Are we not seeing the massive leaps in logic here?

Hmm… the thing is, you said you DO care about the outcome. You simply don’t care about the merits of the case.

That indicates an attitude. There is no way we can tell how many other situations you have the same attitude towards, but at least in this case, your attitude is that the evidence doesn’t matter to you: only the outcome. That is what you said. Sorry if you don’t like the responses you’re getting, but such a stance indicates your attitude.

And to be clear, I didn’t agree with everything the other poster wrote (I don’t know your age and I don’t assume you represent a majority of people your age).

I am pointing out to you that your disregard for the law and evidence in this case (as long as you get what you want) displays a very negative attitude. Other posters expanded that displayed attitude into an opinion of you. If you don’t want others to have that opinion, then maybe don’t post that you only care about getting the outcome you desire, regardless of the law or evidence.

 

[System Of A Down]

Hm... I don't want to put words in your mouth.... But, something tells me that you'd find some excuse for the Sony Playstation and Microsoft's xBox -not- being computers despite the fact they're literally using PC parts that are just locked up.

Or would agree they are just regular computers and Sony, Microsoft (and Nintendo) should have to open them up to allow any owner to install any software and any developer to directly sell software downloads? (no required licensing, no required fees)

Your argument boils down to 'whataboutism'.

 

[SuperMatt]

Here’s a story about the trial so far. Epic uses Microsoft as a witness against Apple in an anti-trust case? Now that’s funny, and the Apple lawyers pointed that out.

MSN Article

Apple makes their presentation next week.

One interesting thing about Microsoft we learned at the trial: they never made any profit on the Xbox hardware.

Epic v. Apple trial reveals how Microsoft has never made money off Xbox hardware

Microsoft revealed in a court appearance this week that it does not, and has never, earned money on the per-unit sales for the Xbox. Each console is sold at a… Read More

www.geekwire.com

 

[31 Flavas]

Right. Because that’s what that means. Not caring about what happens in a legal case between Apple and some developer means I don’t care about any law or fairness right? Probably means I’d be totally fine with all kinds of things. Theft, murder, where does it end??

Well, yes. It does mean that. In a case of "theft or murder" you bring evidence and make a case tying it to a particular person. Whether it a fictional theft/murder case or Epic vs Apple -- If you say, I don't care what evidence is presented because, "I've made up my mind (regardless of what you present)" then, yes, you don't care fairness or law.

 

[31 Flavas]

Your argument boils down to 'whataboutism'.

Sorry, law gets equally applied unless you can make a specific case. Even the judge, in this case, agrees in their preliminary injunction. Epic asked for the judge to force Apple to open the iOS App Store. To which they said, no -- because that would affect Sony, Microsoft, and Nintendo's systems too. More specifically, they rejected Epic's assinine carve out that Sony, Microsoft, and Nintendo's system are distinct or different.

I mean, let's put it this way -- Are you going to tell me that Apple can fully maintain it's despotism over the iOS App Store (the 30% cut, no 3rd party payments, no independent App Stores, No sideloading, ect) as long as it implements an initial hardware subsidy? Like Sony and Microsoft sell the hardware at a loss?

But, you'll still need to answer why Nintendo can maintain it's own control over it's own hardware and software when they have historically always make a profit on their hardware right out of the gate.

 

[DeepWebinar]

Hmm… the thing is, you said you DO care about the outcome. You simply don’t care about the merits of the case.

That indicates an attitude. There is no way we can tell how many other situations you have the same attitude towards, but at least in this case, your attitude is that the evidence doesn’t matter to you: only the outcome. That is what you said. Sorry if you don’t like the responses you’re getting, but such a stance indicates your attitude.

And to be clear, I didn’t agree with everything the other poster wrote (I don’t know your age and I don’t assume you represent a majority of people your age).

I am pointing out to you that your disregard for the law and evidence in this case (as long as you get what you want) displays a very negative attitude. Other posters expanded that displayed attitude into an opinion of you. If you don’t want others to have that opinion, then maybe don’t post that you only care about getting the outcome you desire, regardless of the law or evidence.

I’ve lost the thread here, what? So now we’re talking about my attitude? I’m so lost on what the point you’re trying to make is. I’ve said so many times I don’t care about the merits or any of the details about this case and all I care about is what I would like to see. You’re not nailing me on that, I don’t know how many times I have to repeat myself there. What’s bizarre to me is y’all are then jumping to some weird conclusions about what that means. You’re speaking from this place as if your position is pragmatic and I guess you view pragmatism as virtue? Idk, but we’re talking about one big corporation making a power play on a massive corporation. This whole situation and conversation is free of any virtue. Where we deviate is, I understand that because I’m subject to the whims of these companies, wouldn’t it be cool if the resulting outcome aligned with my wants? Imagine my surprise to learn that there are some people online who feel that this is reflective of my personal values and feel a need to teach (what you perceive to be) some youngster a thing or two about indifference in “justice” being delivered to a multi-billion dollar corporation. Don’t get me wrong, I’m not mad or wounded or anything. Go ahead with the psychoanalysis, it couldn’t be more off base, but I like seeing the inner clockwork of how people think whose values are sooooooo far away from mine. What else am I doing? I’m all ears.

 

[quarkysg]

Sorry, law gets equally applied unless you can make a specific case. Even the judge, in this case, agrees in their preliminary injunction. Epic asked for the judge to force Apple to open the iOS App Store. To which they said, no -- because that would affect Sony, Microsoft, and Nintendo's systems too. More specifically, they rejected Epic's assinine carve out that Sony, Microsoft, and Nintendo's system are distinct or different.

I mean, let's put it this way -- Are you going to tell me that Apple can fully maintain it's despotism over the iOS App Store (the 30% cut, no 3rd party payments, no independent App Stores, No sideloading, ect) as long as it implements an initial hardware subsidy? Like Sony and Microsoft sell the hardware at a loss?

But, you'll still need to answer why Nintendo can maintain it's own control over it's own hardware and software when they have historically always make a profit on their hardware right out of the gate.

Looks like the critics here are practising double standards.

Suppose it is OK for console makers to take the 30% commission because the hardware is sold at a loss/at cost, why it is OK for them to collect the 30% indefinitely? If the argument is that Apple already profits from the hardware and shouldn't collect 30%, then shouldn't the console makers stop the 30% commission at some point?

The argument put forth are silly. This is a business model that the console maker decided to adopt which they think makes sense. It doesn't mean the Apple business model is bad. Nobody is forced to publish titles in the iOS App Store. The reason there're titles there is because it is an opportunity for developers to make money.

Similarly, we have critics saying that Apple contributes nothing to the titles being published in the iOS App Store, and therefore they are not entitled to the 30% commission. Similar I would like to ask the critics, what did the console maker contribute to the titles in the console's store that the critics find acceptable for the console maker to pocket the 30% commission?

This to me is double standards.

It looks to me that the critics just have an axe to grind with Apple.

 

[SuperMatt]

I’ve lost the thread here, what? So now we’re talking about my attitude? I’m so lost on what the point you’re trying to make is. I’ve said so many times I don’t care about the merits or any of the details about this case and all I care about is what I would like to see. You’re not nailing me on that, I don’t know how many times I have to repeat myself there. What’s bizarre to me is y’all are then jumping to some weird conclusions about what that means. You’re speaking from this place as if your position is pragmatic and I guess you view pragmatism as virtue? Idk, but we’re talking about one big corporation making a power play on a massive corporation. This whole situation and conversation is free of any virtue. Where we deviate is, I understand that because I’m subject to the whims of these companies, wouldn’t it be cool if the resulting outcome aligned with my wants? Imagine my surprise to learn that there are some people online who feel that this is reflective of my personal values and feel a need to teach (what you perceive to be) some youngster a thing or two about indifference in “justice” being delivered to a multi-billion dollar corporation. Don’t get me wrong, I’m not mad or wounded or anything. Go ahead with the psychoanalysis, it couldn’t be more off base, but I like seeing the inner clockwork of how people think whose values are sooooooo far away from mine. What else am I doing? I’m all ears.

Look, I believe I understand that you are disenchanted with large corporations, and it’s turned you off to caring about the details of this case.

But to me, that’s all the more reason to care about the merits of this case. Because if the ruling goes against the merits, it could indicate that something else is at play. And if one of us ever got into a dispute with a large corporation due to injury or something else, we’d certainly want the merits to matter.

 

[5232152]

Hm... I don't want to put words in your mouth.... But, something tells me that you'd find some excuse for the Sony Playstation and Microsoft's xBox -not- being computers despite the fact they're literally using PC parts that are just locked up.

Or would agree they are just regular computers and Sony, Microsoft (and Nintendo) should have to open them up to allow any owner to install any software and any developer to directly sell software downloads? (no required licensing, no required fees)

You're right but also products I don't want or use

 

[5232152]

Judging from the tone of your replies to others, it doesn't seem like you like to discuss any points when getting rebutted.

I take 'active blocking' as in Apple take action every time you tries to do sometime. That Apple puts in security measure to protect iOS from being compromised doesn't mean that Apple is working actively to stop you from jail breaking. I don't see Apple releasing iOS update weekly. Do you?

I would think Apple would have far better issues to attend to than to actively stop anyone from jail-breaking iOS.

Apple should assure user security primarily. But going from there and then say there is no way to introduce a sandbox is a long stretch which I don't see

 

[quarkysg]

Apple should assure user security primarily. But going from there and then say there is no way to introduce a sandbox is a long stretch which I don't see

Has Apple issued any statement claiming that there’s no way to implement any sandbox that you’re referring to?

In any case, why should Apple do it? It’s up to Apple to decide. Whether or not they do it should not be anyone business but their own.

I want Apple’s product to be cheaper, but that doesn’t mean I have any rights to demand for it or get the government to make it happen.

 

[Maximara]

That’s not what the MS rep said on day 3. She was asked specifically if they have ever made profit on the XBox and the answer was “no”. The question was even reframed as something like “surely over time, the prices have come down and you’ve made a profit?” again, “no”.

What does what MS have to do with Nintendo? The statement was "Nintendo doesn't sell at a loss." What MS does doesn't mean jack as Nintendo is also a console and fair game as a counter argument to Epic's claims.

 

[Maximara]

Hm... I don't want to put words in your mouth.... But, something tells me that you'd find some excuse for the Sony Playstation and Microsoft's xBox -not- being computers despite the fact they're literally using PC parts that are just locked up.

Or would agree they are just regular computers and Sony, Microsoft (and Nintendo) should have to open them up to allow any owner to install any software and any developer to directly sell software downloads? (no required licensing, no required fees)

The iPad and iPhone are less computers then the Playstation and XBox so why should MS and Sony have walled gardens but Apple can't? Then you have Nintendo who does not sale their consoles at a loss and is even more of a walled garden than Apple is.

 

[diamond.g]

The iPad and iPhone are less computers then the Playstation and XBox so why should MS and Sony have walled gardens but Apple can't? Then you have Nintendo who does not sale their consoles at a loss and is even more of a walled garden than Apple is.

I think this is the first time I have heard someone argue that the iPad and iPhone are less of a computer than a video game console.

 

[Maximara]

I think this is the first time I have heard someone argue that the iPad and iPhone are less of a computer than a video game console.

Go back to the post I was replying to: "But, something tells me that you'd find some excuse for the Sony Playstation and Microsoft's xBox -not- being computers despite the fact they're literally using PC parts that are just locked up." In fact, there is Turn your Xbox console into a home PC with this guide

Unless there is some way to get a full vorsion of Linux as the native OS and turn iPad and iPhone into devices that can run LibreOffice they are less computers.

 

[MandiMac]

Goback to the post I was relying to: "But, something tells me that you'd find some excuse for the Sony Playstation and Microsoft's xBox -not- being computers despite the fact they're literally using PC parts that are just locked up." In fact, there is Turn your Xbox console into a home PC with this guide

Unless there is some way to get a full vorsion of Linux as the native OS and turn iPad and iPhone into devices that can run LibreOffice they are less computers.

What is a computer?

 

[Maximara]

What is a computer?

There in lies the problem. Back in the day a "computer" was a person. Cars have small computers that control how well they run (and in some cases if they run at all) Heck, there was a toy, called the Computacar, that worked akin to dedicated punch card "computer" (I actually worked with punch cards ugh) and a modern hand-held calculator is considered a computer. Don't think you will be playing Fornite on your HP Prime Graphing Calculator anytime soon. 😁

 

[diamond.g]

Go back to the post I was replying to: "But, something tells me that you'd find some excuse for the Sony Playstation and Microsoft's xBox -not- being computers despite the fact they're literally using PC parts that are just locked up." In fact, there is Turn your Xbox console into a home PC with this guide

Unless there is some way to get a full vorsion of Linux as the native OS and turn iPad and iPhone into devices that can run LibreOffice they are less computers.

With the new M1 iPad you could make the same argument about it vs a M1 MacBook Air as you could about a PS5/XSX vs Dell PC. Realistically the Apple side would be an easier argument because as of right now there is no consumer available AMD APU with RDNA graphics inside, and in the case of the PS5 the storage system is non-standard as well.

But I see your argument.

 

[5232152]

Has Apple issued any statement claiming that there’s no way to implement any sandbox that you’re referring to?

In any case, why should Apple do it? It’s up to Apple to decide. Whether or not they do it should not be anyone business but their own.

I want Apple’s product to be cheaper, but that doesn’t mean I have any rights to demand for it or get the government to make it happen.

Or repair your phone. Or change the battery. Or even get spare parts. And if you try, it could block your phone because Apple didn't approve it - but that would be okay with your standards, right?

This way of thinking is neo-capitalistic which I personally never could condone because people are almost more important than any company on this earth. But hey, you do you.

 

[LordVic]

With the new M1 iPad you could make the same argument about it vs a M1 MacBook Air as you could about a PS5/XSX vs Dell PC. Realistically the Apple side would be an easier argument because as of right now there is no consumer available AMD APU with RDNA graphics inside, and in the case of the PS5 the storage system is non-standard as well.

But I see your argument.

I think there's one thing where making something with complicated and new tech which acts as a barrier to 3rd party OS's and such is realistic.

INTENTIONALLY putting blocks in place for no technical reason other than business motivations? That's where I think many of us get our backs up against the wall.

it's one thing for there to be no "hacking" community because it's not worth it, no interest, or the technical skillset isn't publicly available. There's another thing to perform in an anti-consumer way by forced lockdowns.

For example: There's zero technical reason why I cannot roll back an IOS version on my iPad. That is an APPLE decision to force you to stay on a specific release, even if that release does not run well on the hardware. I SHOULD HAVE The full choice to roll back or install an alternative. it is MY physical phone. I bought it outright. And I OWN IT. not Apple.

 

[I7guy]

I think there's one thing where making something with complicated and new tech which acts as a barrier to 3rd party OS's and such is realistic.

INTENTIONALLY putting blocks in place for no technical reason other than business motivations? That's where I think many of us get our backs up against the wall.

it's one thing for there to be no "hacking" community because it's not worth it, no interest, or the technical skillset isn't publicly available. There's another thing to perform in an anti-consumer way by forced lockdowns.

For example: There's zero technical reason why I cannot roll back an IOS version on my iPad. That is an APPLE decision to force you to stay on a specific release, even if that release does not run well on the hardware. I SHOULD HAVE The full choice to roll back or install an alternative. it is MY physical phone. I bought it outright. And I OWN IT. not Apple.

There could be valid reasons why Apple doesn't permit a rollback of an IOS version. One off-the-wall scenario that comes to mind is that potentially, security vulnerabilities in older software could be used to facilitate some type of zero day vulnerabilities in a newer pathed version, if that older iphone is in direct contact to an iphone with supposed patches.

 

[quarkysg]

Or repair your phone. Or change the battery. Or even get spare parts. And if you try, it could block your phone because Apple didn't approve it - but that would be okay with your standards, right?

This way of thinking is neo-capitalistic which I personally never could condone because people are almost more important than any company on this earth. But hey, you do you.

This is the way the world is now. I can’t do anything if you want to hide your head in a hole and pretend otherwise.

 

[LordVic]

There could be valid reasons why Apple doesn't permit a rollback of an IOS version. One off-the-wall scenario that comes to mind is that potentially, security vulnerabilities in older software could be used to facilitate some type of zero day vulnerabilities in a newer pathed version, if that older iphone is in direct contact to an iphone with supposed patches.

My hardware my choice.

EG: I use my iPad AIR offline as an RDP terminal to my windows computer. it has no internet and only works internally

12.4 was great

12.4.1 rendered it unusable (3 minutes to launch safari, 2-5 minutes to load a single page)

I Should have the right, to accept any risk involved with downgrading to 12.4 without intentially restrictions on me.

 

[LordVic]

This is the way the world is now. I can’t do anything if you want to hide your head in hole and pretend otherwise.

this is defeatest


we should just accept or hegemony corporate overloads because "thats the way it was"

OR

we can fight for our consumer rights