Apple Says Revised U.S. Sideloading Bill Would 'Undermine the Privacy and Security Protections' iPhone Users Rely On

[Macative]

Exactly, users aren’t morons like Apple thinks.

They absolutely are, but that isn't a reason not to do this.

 

[Tanax]

Some people are incapable of forward thinking and can't imagine the inevitable path on which side loading goes from a choice to virtually mandatory once apps used by the masses like Instagram, Tik Tok or Google stop making their apps available in the App Store and make their apps only available to install via sideloading.

You can only resist for so long until an app comes around that you need for work or to fit in your social circle. Then the whole privacy and security deck of cards Apple built with the App Store comes crashing down. Why would any major app offer their app in the App Store with privacy and security protections if they have the chance to acquire all of your data?

You can sideload on Android. Yet most, if not all, major services put their apps on the official PlayStore.
Why would this be different on Apple devices?

 

[Aydo2000]

I agree with the overall intent of your comment.

But wasn't the internet the solution to all the problems with boxed software on retail store shelves?

No more cardboard boxes, CDs, printing paper booklets, shipping, warehousing, etc.

Now it's just a website with a "Purchase" button. And you get an email with a download link.

I honestly can't remember the last time I purchased software from a store shelf...

Yes, but the inception of internet is not the same thing as digital distribution. People didn’t have the internet speed, hardware for such thing to function. Not to mention software used to take many megabytes even on a CD. Some came in multiple discs. Follow the timeline.

iTunes was launched in 2001 with the introduction of iPod. That was an answer to music piracy that programs like LimeWire made popular. I remember with my dial up internet (landline connection) a 2Mb MP3 user to take 30 minutes to download if the person who had the song had faster speeds. It could take 2-3 hours sometimes to download a single song if the person didn’t cancel the transfer.

App Store was launched in 2008.

Apple started to phase out CD drives from Macs in 2008. That was a big outrage at the time and the rest of the industry didn’t follow the suit until 2-3 years later. Even my 2010 Mac Book Pro had built in CD drive at the time.

People still stuck with their CD software for a good few years due to still having their key codes.

It is easy to forget how all this took place and it was over many many years. It didn’t happen overnight. Trust me. I know. I was there ?

 

[Beautyspin]

Wow. Ok. So allow me explain how Facebook makes money and it’s not “other” sources. Clearly you are very misinformed.

Facebook monetizes the user (you) through user data and information harvesting. You are the product!!!

Facebook profiles the user by following you everywhere (likes, swipes, web activity, app usage, information you provide, pictures you post (location, time, tags, etc), knows your bank balance, credit card balance, square footage of the apartment/house you live in, private conversations you have, and 98 other major points or sensitive user information that it leverages to generate money through targeted advertising. Their revenue is dependent on your online engagement. It’s not “other” sources. They provide the service to you as “free” because that’s the tool they use to monetize you.

FYI, WhatsApp and Insta are owned by Facebook (now called Meta). Your messages are being scanned and added to your profile as a user. Insta is the same.

Also, you think it doesn’t cost money to run App Store??? Wow, man. You can’t be serious. Apple spends billions of dollars on the App Store alone. API developers use, it’s provided by Apple. Developers have access to millions of paying customers through App Store. Otherwise, developers would have to spend considerable resources to advertise, promote their apps and marketing spending would be a major sticking point for small developers since they can’t afford any of that. Apple covers that for them! Apple takes care of payments, customer service (both developers and customers), security measures, ecosystem (who makes iPhones, iPads, etc???)

You seem to be oblivious to the fact that pretty much all these apps exist due to App Store. Prior to App Store, there were only brick and mortar stores that software developers had to pay 70% of their revenue to the stores. Yes, that is how it used to work. Do some research what developer life was like prior to App Store. All the packaging cost is something developers had to take on themselves. Stores like Circuit City (doesn’t exist anymore) user to take 70% of the sales for just putting the CDs and boxes on their shelves.

Apple can scale the cost by hosting millions of apps and can sustain the business by minimal cut. 30%, 15% for only in app transactions. Otherwise it’s free to host the app if developer chooses to have ad-supported structure.

So are you clear how each business model works now???

How does Apple's ad platform work? What does it monetize? Everybody is in the same boat. Apple is less efficient so it is not making as much from ads. It will get better as its services income shrinks due to the loss in Appstore income and related stuff due to all the antitrust regulations all over the world.

Apple to restructure services business to focus more on advertising, streaming | AppleInsider

Apple's Eddy Cue is reportedly working to shake up the company's lucrative Services business in order to focus more on streaming and advertising.

appleinsider.com

However, that need not be the only way to monetize. How do I know? i do not, and neither do you. We will know if there are other business models that can make an Appstore profitable without fleecing the develpers only if we allow other appstores, because Apple will never use that business model. F-droid is an appstore that does not charge developers and seems to be sustaining itselves well. If Facebook (just an example) starts an Appstore in the mode of F-droid, it can sustain itself (because F-droid is able to). It even has three huge apps that can anchor the store and provide it all the profits that are needed and let it run the store as a loss leading business. If Apple can bring ATT to spite Facebook, I am sure Facebook can return the favor if it can kill the Appstore.

 

[Beautyspin]

Wait... what?!?!?

Mission accomplished! iOS already has sideloading.

EU... stand down!

?

That is what the report says. However, the sideloading is through MDM. Now, the EU wants it to allow sideloading in a simpler way.

 

[Michael Scrip]

That is what the report says. However, the sideloading is through MDM. Now, the EU wants it to allow sideloading in a simpler way.

Is the EU gonna make it simpler to sideload on Android too?

I hear Google now puts up a bunch of scary prompts when you go down the "unknown sources" route.

Bad Google! Stop keeping the gate!

 

[Beautyspin]

Is the EU gonna make it simpler to sideload on Android too?

I hear Google now puts up a bunch of scary prompts when you go down the "unknown sources" route.

Bad Google! Stop keeping the gate!

I think so. Or Google will pay fines until it becomes simpler. However, I do not know how much simpler it can be when all you have to do is toggle enabling Installation from Unknown Sources.

 

[macjoshua]

I say Apple should allow side loading, but lock those apps out of accessing most of the OS - and require a complete wipe of the phone before they do any support work on it.

 

[siddavis]

Sadly... CSAM imagery can be distributed over any file or messaging app... including Apple's own Messages/iMessage.

?

Then we must ban them. Think of the kids!

 

[Beautyspin]

I say Apple should allow side loading, but lock those apps out of accessing most of the OS - and require a complete wipe of the phone before they do any support work on it.

Apple can go that route but they would become bankrupt paying all the fines until they change the behavior to allow the sideloaded apps access to all the APIs that Apple itself has access to. You know that that is also a requirement under DMA.

 

[siddavis]

You can sideload on Android. Yet most, if not all, major services put their apps on the official PlayStore.
Why would this be different on Apple devices?

Then again, what is the big problem with the way it is?
My question is, why should (to the point government intervention is required) it be different on Apple devices?

 

[Beautyspin]

Then again, what is the big problem with the way it is?
My question is, why should (to the point government intervention is required) it be different on Apple devices?

Because Apple is abusing its position as Gatekeeper and that abuse has reached an unacceptable level.

 

[Michael Scrip]

Wouldn't all this go away if Apple simply lowered their cut?

That's the real problem, right?

I'm not sure too many of the millions of app developers actually want to set up ecommerce websites, CDNs and storage servers, Stripe/PayPal accounts, multi-national tax collection, and all that jazz to facilitate sideloading.

Some people say Apple is too "greedy" with their cut.

So lower the cut!

 

[anthogag]

They (Google, Facebook, etc.,) are the ones that are most affected by this bill.

I read the PDF this Macrumors article provided.

Part 3, "Unlawful Conduct", has (10) sections.

This Bill is all about making a 'fair and level playing field'. I did not see anything about not gathering and using user data. Section (6) said, for a "covered platform" like Google, Google can't use data acquired by a business using Google's platform to compete with that business. However, Google and Facebook are one of the 'umbrella companies' that buys businesses.

This Bill is about fairness. It appears all apps could still be required to be in the App Store for security and privacy vetting but apps would choose their own customer payment setup.

Another thing this Bill addresses is Google paying Apple big ? to make Google the default search engine for iOS. This would be a no-no, Section (1).

 

[webkit]

Are you old enough to remember Circuit City? They used to keep 70% of the software sales simply by putting developer’s CDs on their shelves. All the packaging cost (CDs, labels, boxes, etc.) and logistics were a cost to the developer.

Just curious where you got that 70% figure from. It seems high after factoring in software company cut, wholesale/distributor cut, shipping costs, etc. If a software product retailed for $300, for example, I don't think Circuit City or similar stores kept $210.

Also, it's not "simply" as these stores had the typical brick and mortar overhead like real estate, equipment, insurance, utilities, staff, marketing/advertising, etc. They didn't quite have the captive audience that an Apple App Store has.

 

[siddavis]

Because Apple is abusing its position as Gatekeeper and that abuse has reached an unacceptable level.

By what definition?

 

[The Phazer]

So a company needs to be compelled under the force of law to do something because other companies and developers want it? Sounds petulant to me.

Also, it begs the question WHY most of the mobile app profits are in iOS. So the most profitable setup needs to change to be more like the less profitable setup? And who is this supposed to benefit?

It's most profitable because Apple's blocking of models like upgrade pricing forces the use of gambling simulators.

 

[Aydo2000]

How does Apple's ad platform work? What does it monetize? Everybody is in the same boat. Apple is less efficient so it is not making as much from ads. It will get better as its services income shrinks due to the loss in Appstore income and related stuff due to all the antitrust regulations all over the world.

Apple to restructure services business to focus more on advertising, streaming | AppleInsider

Apple's Eddy Cue is reportedly working to shake up the company's lucrative Services business in order to focus more on streaming and advertising.

appleinsider.com

However, that need not be the only way to monetize. How do I know? i do not, and neither do you. We will know if there are other business models that can make an Appstore profitable without fleecing the develpers only if we allow other appstores, because Apple will never use that business model. F-droid is an appstore that does not charge developers and seems to be sustaining itselves well. If Facebook (just an example) starts an Appstore in the mode of F-droid, it can sustain itself (because F-droid is able to). It even has three huge apps that can anchor the store and provide it all the profits that are needed and let it run the store as a loss leading business. If Apple can bring ATT to spite Facebook, I am sure Facebook can return the favor if it can kill the Appstore.

You are asking legitimate and good questions and I am happy to answer.

Apple’s ad store apps don’t work by collecting user information. It simply puts the app in front and center when you search for certain keywords.

The rest of the ads (Apple News, etc) are publisher posted and revenue is kept 100% by the publisher. They work in line with Differential Privacy which is the practice only Apple uses. What that means is when the publisher posts an add in an article the user reads in Apple News, Apple only collects chunks of data. It doesn’t attach any of that data to user information or profile. So it may know users in east coast read lots of Patriots news but not much more than that. Yes, data and information are not the same thing. Data is raw and meaningless (20, 30, etc). Information has context (20C in Texas on Thursday, 30C on Friday).

FYI, Facebook already has its own App Store.

And yes F-Droid is a good alternative but it comes with many downsides. In theory, it is a great privacy oriented platform. However, it is still reliant on Android and because it’s an outside App Store, it relies on open and weak security on Android. You think it can sustain itself but the truth is they really can’t. Because it’s a small store with small reach, it compromises on many security and standard protocols to save money and to attract more developers. That’s a huge issue and undermines the whole purpose of the platform.

Also, Apple’s App Store is one of the many services Apple has. It isn’t the only revenue source. Apple has iCloud, Apple Music, Fitness+, Apple Pay, Apple TV+, Warranty, Arcade, Apple News, Apple Card and few more that I may be forgetting now.

Also FYI, I am a business analyst so I do know how Apple makes money and how it differs from others. Apple is a publicly traded company and they release financials every quarter. You can download it from their investors page and study all the revenue sources. Advertising revenue is a tiny blip on a big map.

I can go more in details but I now want to enjoy my vacation and get in the roof top pool I am staring at.

Meanwhile, take a look at this link.

A brief and informal analysis of F-Droid security

This blog post has been taken over by PrivSec with my explicit permission, and will be continuously improved by other people. You can access this updated blog post on the PrivSec website. They will continue improving it without me. I decided to take down the original blog post of my own accord...

wonderfall.dev

 

[dk001]

I think it's funny that there's one side who is shouting "Apple must allow sideloading!"

And then there's Google who has had sideloading for over a decade... yet hardly any users or developers do it.

Did you ever wonder why most Android app developers go through the Google Play Store and thus pay Google's 30% fee... even though Google allows sideloading and all these developers have their own websites and could handle the entire transaction themselves to avoid that fee?

Anyway... I just want some sort of solution where we aren't getting three articles per week on this topic.

Can we go back to the days when we argued about market share? Throwback!

?

Honestly the only apps I really sideload on Android are ones that Google, for whatever reason doesn't allow or the app has been "retired" even if it still runs fine. There are a lot of them and most folks do not realize they exist.

I'm with you there.
Mostly.

 

[dk001]

I don’t think you understand all of the downstream effects from sideloading that could be had. Thats the problem. People can never see the downside or they dismiss it. Then later on it becomes the intractable reality.

Sorry but I had to laugh.
I "side load" even if it is a misnomer, on all my other systems except iPhone and iPad.
I think I understand it very well.

 

[Beautyspin]

You are asking legitimate and good questions and I am happy to answer.

Apple’s ad store apps don’t work by collecting user information. It simply puts the app in front and center when you search for certain keywords.

The rest of the ads (Apple News, etc) are publisher posted and revenue is kept 100% by the publisher. They work in line with Differential Privacy which is the practice only Apple uses. What that means is when the publisher posts an add in an article the user reads in Apple News, Apple only collects chunks of data. It doesn’t attach any of that data to user information or profile. So it may know users in east coast read lots of Patriots news but not much more than that. Yes, data and information are not the same thing. Data is raw and meaningless (20, 30, etc). Information has context (20C in Texas on Thursday, 30C on Friday).

FYI, Facebook already has its own App Store.

And yes F-Droid is a good alternative but it comes with many downsides. In theory, it is a great privacy oriented platform. However, it is still reliant on Android and because it’s an outside App Store, it relies on open and weak security on Android. You think it can sustain itself but the truth is they really can’t. Because it’s a small store with small reach, it compromises on many security and standard protocols to save money and to attract more developers. That’s a huge issue and undermines the whole purpose of the platform.

Also, Apple’s App Store is one of the many services Apple has. It isn’t the only revenue source. Apple has iCloud, Apple Music, Fitness+, Apple Pay, Apple TV+, Warranty, Arcade, Apple News, Apple Card and few more that I may be forgetting now.

Also FYI, I am a business analyst so I do know how Apple makes money and how it differs from others. Apple is a publicly traded company and they release financials every quarter. You can download it from their investors page and study all the revenue sources. Advertising revenue is a tiny blip on a big map.

I can go more in details but I now want to enjoy my vacation and get in the roof top pool I am staring at.

Meanwhile, take a look at this link.

1. https://fossbytes.com/apple-data-collection-explained/ - The data Apple collects for its ad business
2. Facebook has its appstore on iOS? News to me.
3. I quoted F-droid to show that Appstores can be free as somebody said nothing can be free.
4. Apple's service revenue is not a point of discussion here as I am not debating it.
5. You may be a BA, but until you expand your horizons and know all the facts, you cannot know how a company makes money. Do you know all the revenue streams that Apple has? There may be many that we are not even privy to. Their ad business depends on data collection and that is the reason why it tripled once ATT came into place as it restricted the data on iOS to only Apple. https://www.emarketer.com/content/apple-ad-revenues-skyrocket-amid-its-privacy-changes - Please pay attention to the last paragraph. I am quoting it here:
"Though Apple is reaping the benefits now, the sheer scale of its growth will be hard for antitrust regulators to ignore for too long. Even though its iOS 14.5 changes were made in the name of privacy, regulators are unlikely to take kindly to how much of an advantage they give Apple’s own ad business."

 

[Aydo2000]

Sorry but I had to laugh.
I "side load" even if it is a misnomer, on all my other systems except iPhone and iPad.
I think I understand it very well.

I think that’s mostly my typing while the sun is face at the roof top pool in the resort I am vacationing. Couple of drinks have an effect too. Can’t blame everything on autocorrect ?

 

[Beautyspin]

By what definition?

EU says Apple abusing its gatekeeper status for music streaming

The case backs complaints from Spotify Technology SA which accuses Apple of imposing its in-app purchase system to take a cut of its subscription fees.

fortune.com

https://www.eureporter.co/business/competition-2/2021/04/30/vestager-accuses-apple-of-abusing-its-role-as-gatekeeper-in-music-streaming/

Overshadowed but not overlooked, Apple faces gatekeeper questions

Apple may not have attracted as much scrutiny as Amazon, Facebook and Google during last week’s Congressional hearing, but its chief executive was forced to defend the company against allegations it has abused its gatekeeper role to target rival app developers.

globalcompetitionreview.com

I could go on, but I am sure I made my point. The EU believes this and hence the new regulations.

 

[I7guy]

How does Apple's ad platform work? What does it monetize? Everybody is in the same boat. Apple is less efficient so it is not making as much from ads. It will get better as its services income shrinks due to the loss in Appstore income and related stuff due to all the antitrust regulations all over the world.

Apple to restructure services business to focus more on advertising, streaming | AppleInsider

Apple's Eddy Cue is reportedly working to shake up the company's lucrative Services business in order to focus more on streaming and advertising.

appleinsider.com

However, that need not be the only way to monetize. How do I know? i do not, and neither do you. We will know if there are other business models that can make an Appstore profitable without fleecing the develpers only if we allow other appstores, because Apple will never use that business model. F-droid is an appstore that does not charge developers and seems to be sustaining itselves well. If Facebook (just an example) starts an Appstore in the mode of F-droid, it can sustain itself (because F-droid is able to). It even has three huge apps that can anchor the store and provide it all the profits that are needed and let it run the store as a loss leading business. If Apple can bring ATT to spite Facebook, I am sure Facebook can return the favor if it can kill the Appstore.

Lots to unpack. If you are not okay with apple ads, just opt out. I'm okay with getting ads regarding apple products and apps in the ios store.

You are assuming wanting all of this legislation to be enacting. I'm am assuming hoping the scenario you want won't materialize. Having said that if you feel you are being fleeced as a developer then go somewhere else. Build a game, go to android. Oh wait. It's cheap, easy and lucrative to build an app on the ios app store. Yeah, you need some knowledge, but that sweat equity is needed regardless.

 

[dk001]

I agree with the overall intent of your comment.

But wasn't the internet the solution to all the problems with boxed software on retail store shelves?

No more cardboard boxes, CDs, printing paper booklets, shipping, warehousing, etc.

Now it's just a website with a "Purchase" button. And you get an email with a download link.

I honestly can't remember the last time I purchased software from a store shelf...

Was remembering my Blackjack - I think I got all my software online or via AT&T. Ran Win Mobile