Apple Says Revised U.S. Sideloading Bill Would 'Undermine the Privacy and Security Protections' iPhone Users Rely On

[Beautyspin]

What part of "I purchased this phone knowing I was in a walled garden that would be safer than Android" do you not understand?

You can want whatever you want. Apple doesn't have to screw its other customers to give it to you.

I do not know if I replied to you or somebody else about this but I am going to respond to you again.
Did Apple not know that governments are going to change laws and bring in regulations that it thinks will benefit its people before setting up businesses in these countries? Why is it whining now? It has to comply with the regulations of a country. It cannot say that it is complying with Chinese laws when handing over the data to China's government and say it will comply with the EU regulations. Apple has shown the EU regulators that it will screw over its customers when it suits it.

 

[ksj1]

Then there are those of us, well qualified, who may agree in part with your premise but thoroughly disagree with your stated outcome.

Opinions differ.

How is Apple not being required to rearchitect IOS to meet this new requirement? How are they not required to rework all of their services to secure them against, or deny them, to iPhones users with sideloaded apps?

 

[ksj1]

I do not know if I replied to you or somebody else about this but I am going to respond to you again.
Did Apple not know that governments are going to change laws and bring in regulations that it thinks will benefit its people before setting up businesses in these countries? Why is it whining now? It has to comply with the regulations of a country. It cannot say that it is complying with Chinese laws when handing over the data to China's government and say it will comply with the EU regulations. Apple has shown the EU regulators that it will screw over its customers when it suits it.

FFS Apple has complied with the law. Now the law is saying F that, do this.

 

[dk001]

Allowing sideloading does not mean buy once and use anywhere. It is true that some apps are available on multiple platforms, not all are. This argument is specious and shows that you are clutching at straws.

I would expect a subscription is cross OS.
Standard apps? In most cases not.
Would be cool if you changes platforms and bought from the dev direct.

 

[dk001]

Explain the large expense then if its not the apps.

I have an iPhone, an iPad Pro, a MacBook Pro, couple of pods and an Apple TV.
I have a couple of hundred apps, maybe more, some free, some paid, some subscription.
I have peripherals that are Apple specific.

Now I am going to change from my iPhone to an Android.
Cost of the phone
Cost of the peripherals
Cost of the Apps
Cost of the subscriptions if they are OS specific

Then there is the Future cost if you decide that Apple is no longer your way and you start looking at your other Apple and supporting Apple products.

In the end it can vary from under $1k (phone cost) to quite a bit more, say a couple of grand. Then you start getting potentially into the other Apple products.

I maintain both Android and iOS/iPadOS And am very aware of the cost.

 

[Beautyspin]

FFS Apple has complied with the law. Now the law is saying F that, do this.

No, it has not.

apple: EU regulators charge Apple with keeping rivals from pay technology - The Economic Times

The Commission's decision to send a charge sheet known as a statement of objections to Apple confirmed a Reuters story in October last year.

economictimes.indiatimes.com

Antitrust: What is it, and why is Apple being investigated? - 9to5Mac

The term antitrust is used to refer to laws designed to prevent companies from engaging in any kind of anticompetitive action – that is ...

9to5mac.com

Antitrust: Commission opens investigations into Apple\'s App Store rules

The European Commission has opened formal antitrust investigations to assess whether Apple\'s rules for app developers on the distribution of apps via the App Store violate EU competition rules. The in

ec.europa.eu

India orders antitrust investigation against Apple for App Store practices - BusinessToday

This makes India the latest country to come at Apple for its App Store practices.

www.businesstoday.in

Moscow court rules antitrust case against Apple is lawful - RIA

A Moscow court on Thursday ruled that it was lawful for Russia's anti-monopoly regulator to open an antitrust case against Apple over an App Store payment dispute, dismissing a case brought by the U.S. company, the RIA news agency reported.

www.reuters.com

Apple settles South Korea antitrust case with $90 million investment | AppleInsider

South Korea's Fair Trade Commission has approved Apple's proposal to pay around $90 million into assorted local support programs, in order to settle an antitrust investigation.

appleinsider.com

Apple's Fines in Dutch Antitrust Case Hit 50 Million Euros

Apple today was fined another €5 million ($5.5 million) in the Netherlands by the Dutch Authority for Consumers and Markets (ACM) as the company...

www.macrumors.com

I literally could go on forever.

 

[ksj1]

No, it has not.

apple: EU regulators charge Apple with keeping rivals from pay technology - The Economic Times

The Commission's decision to send a charge sheet known as a statement of objections to Apple confirmed a Reuters story in October last year.

economictimes.indiatimes.com

Antitrust: What is it, and why is Apple being investigated? - 9to5Mac

The term antitrust is used to refer to laws designed to prevent companies from engaging in any kind of anticompetitive action – that is ...

9to5mac.com

Antitrust: Commission opens investigations into Apple\'s App Store rules

The European Commission has opened formal antitrust investigations to assess whether Apple\'s rules for app developers on the distribution of apps via the App Store violate EU competition rules. The in

ec.europa.eu

India orders antitrust investigation against Apple for App Store practices - BusinessToday

This makes India the latest country to come at Apple for its App Store practices.

www.businesstoday.in

Moscow court rules antitrust case against Apple is lawful - RIA

A Moscow court on Thursday ruled that it was lawful for Russia's anti-monopoly regulator to open an antitrust case against Apple over an App Store payment dispute, dismissing a case brought by the U.S. company, the RIA news agency reported.

www.reuters.com

Apple settles South Korea antitrust case with $90 million investment | AppleInsider

South Korea's Fair Trade Commission has approved Apple's proposal to pay around $90 million into assorted local support programs, in order to settle an antitrust investigation.

appleinsider.com

Apple's Fines in Dutch Antitrust Case Hit 50 Million Euros

Apple today was fined another €5 million ($5.5 million) in the Netherlands by the Dutch Authority for Consumers and Markets (ACM) as the company...

www.macrumors.com

I literally could go on forever.

I'm sure you can. When you can point to a conviction you can say they broke the law. That's how it works in the adult world.

 

[ksj1]

I have an iPhone, an iPad Pro, a MacBook Pro, couple of pods and an Apple TV.
I have a couple of hundred apps, maybe more, some free, some paid, some subscription.
I have peripherals that are Apple specific.

Now I am going to change from my iPhone to an Android.
Cost of the phone
Cost of the peripherals
Cost of the Apps
Cost of the subscriptions if they are OS specific

Then there is the Future cost if you decide that Apple is no longer your way and you start looking at your other Apple and supporting Apple products.

In the end it can vary from under $1k (phone cost) to quite a bit more, say a couple of grand. Then you start getting potentially into the other Apple products.

I maintain both Android and iOS/iPadOS And am very aware of the cost.

That is between you and the developer isn't it? If Apple is prohibiting devs from transferring license's then you could have a point. I would totally agree with Apple making it easier to transfer such licenses. I would note that many devs won't do that. The same way you have to buy a separate license for a PC install and a Mac install.

 

[Beautyspin]

I'm sure you can. When you can point to a conviction you can say they broke the law. That's how it works in the adult world.

It is already there. South Korea settlement and ACM fines are after convictions.

 

[ksj1]

It is already there. South Korea settlement and ACM fines are after convictions.

How long have you worked for Epic? A settlement isn't a conviction, and fines are also not convictions.

 

[Karma*Police]

I'm sorry, this is nonsense. Consumers simply don't buy the product if they feel it has issues. What world do you live in?

Edit - A couple of examples being Blackberry, Windows Phone, etc.

He lives in what we call a clown world where victimhood is a virtue.

 

[Karma*Police]

Honnestly his comment was quite spot on.

Sure, if you honestly believe switching from iPhone to Android is equivalent to moving to another country.

 

[Beautyspin]

How long have you worked for Epic? A settlement isn't a conviction, and fines are also not convictions.

The Apple App Store case in the Netherlands – a potential game changer - Lexxion

Just before 2021 ended, Apple suffered a loss in the Netherlands where a national court in preliminary relief proceedings struck down its attempt to block the

www.lexxion.eu

Dutch Anti Competition authority has fined Apple because it "found" Apple abusing its dominant position.

https://www.acm.nl/sites/default/files/documents/summary-of-decision-on-abuse-of-dominant-position-by-apple.pdf

 

[Michael Scrip]

Dutch Anti Competition authority has fined Apple because it "found" Apple abusing its dominant position.

And here is Apple's solution:

Distributing dating apps in the Netherlands - Support - Apple Developer

developer.apple.com

Apple had to create new developer resources specifically for "dating apps in the Netherlands"

That sentence makes me chuckle.

?

 

[AppliedMicro]

Jeez, I can't believe the mis-information in this thread. It appears a number of Epic, Meta, Google and other Apple competitors have pulled out all the stops

I can't believe the mis-information you are spreading here.
Go back to the Macrumors News article, read the proposed bill linked in it, especially its definition of covered platforms.

? Google and Meta themselves will surely be targeted by this bill.

And that is also true for the European Union Digital Markets Act.

I'm pretty sure this thread is about sideloading, which Android allows and Apple does not. How is this initiative not directed specifically at Apple? How is it directed at "a number of big tech corporations"?

The proposed bill clearly isn't about sideloading only - it's not even about sideloading predominantly. Sideloading is just one point in it.

There are clearly a bunch of people on this thread that don't understand that allowing side loading of apps means that the services those people are using are also now compromised, which means someone who has sideloaded something could use those services to contaminate my device through that service

Security and privacy will not be achieved through preventing sideloading. Especially not given the scam, phishing and spying apps Apple have let through their app store review process in the past and still do today.

It will only be achieved by robust sandboxing and controls in software. You, as a user, deciding what content an app can access.

How is Apple not being required to rearchitect IOS to meet this new requirement? How are they not required to rework all of their services to secure them against, or deny them, to iPhones users with sideloaded apps?

They aren't, because you can sideload today. There are enterprise developer certificates that allow you to host your own App Store and provide installable apps without Apple's review. And some of them are used by shady actors to provider their own alternative app stores today. Also, again, there have been numerous instances of corporations (Facebook, Google) developers abusing these certificates or existing functionality and APIs to collect data.

It's just that Apple contractually makes it impossible for honest and trustworthy developers to distribute their apps to consumers using existing sideloading functionality.

 

[I7guy]

[…]
Security and privacy will not be achieved through preventing sideloading. Especially not given the scam, phishing and spying apps Apple have let through their app store review process in the past and still do today.[…]

True. But part of it is to not let the cat of bad and make targeting iOS users as easy as shooting fish in a barrel.

Because the current system isnt perfect, is a 100% indication of where this will go.

Mark my words.

 

[webkit]

I already told you. Search for Epic’s rate in the 90s. All documented on the court case from EPIC VS APPLE. I am vacation and you can’t even find information from several months ago. Somehow I am the guilty one for not spoon feed you information.

My question wasn't about Epic. I had responded to a reply you had posted to someone else where you wrote, "Are you old enough to remember Circuit City? They used to keep 70% of the software sales simply by putting developer's CDs on their shelves." I asked you where you got that 70% figure from as it seemed high. I haven't found anything to support your claim in old articles, filings, etc. and despite your comment in a follow up rely that "you can find the info online easily", you haven't provided anything and neither has anyone else. Therefore, I will have to assume your statement was incorrect until shown otherwise.

 

[webkit]

It honestly baffles me that there are so many people who obviously hate Apple or want to see them fail on a forum for Apple products.

I get that you might not like the business model, but that's why there's Android, Windows, etc. I don't care how either of those companies do business because I choose not to use them. It's simple.

Someone not liking the way a company conducts part of their business does not mean they hate the company or want to see it fail. I also don't think Apple is that fragile that if they ended up having to allow sideloading, alternative app stores, etc. they'd be out of business. Have more faith in the company.

I don't feel there is any company that deserves 100% support in everything they do in every aspect of their business.

 

[I7guy]

My question wasn't about Epic. I had responded to a reply you had posted to someone else where you wrote, "Are you old enough to remember Circuit City? They used to keep 70% of the software sales simply by putting developer's CDs on their shelves." I asked you where you got that 70% figure from as it seemed high. I haven't found anything to support your claim in old articles, filings, etc. and despite your comment in a follow up rely that "you can find the info online easily", you haven't provided anything and neither has anyone else. Therefore, I will have to assume your statement was incorrect until shown otherwise.

Can’t assume it’s incorrect either. I worked for a small computer retailer and they took at least 50% depending. Just because it’s not provable on the internet doesn’t mean it’s not correct.

However, apple will say what it has to. The laws will either be ratified or not. Challenged or not. We will get to see where it all goes. And we still have death and taxes as a certain future.

 

[dk001]

Explain the large expense then if its not the apps.

I have an iPhone, an iPad Pro, a MacBook Pro, couple of pods and an Apple TV.
I have a couple of hundred apps, maybe more, some free, some paid, some subscription.
I have peripherals that are Apple specific.

Now I am going to change from my iPhone to an Android.
Cost of the phone
Cost of the peripherals
Cost of the Apps
Cost of the subscriptions if they are OS specific

Then there is the Future cost if you decide that Apple is no longer your way and you start looking at your other Apple and supporting Apple products.

In the end it can vary from under $1k (phone cost) to quite a bit more, say a couple of grand. Then you start getting potentially into the other Apple products.

I maintain both Android and iOS/iPadOS And am very aware of the cost.

How is Apple not being required to rearchitect IOS to meet this new requirement? How are they not required to rework all of their services to secure them against, or deny them, to iPhones users with sideloaded apps?

Rearchitect? Not sure where you are coming from on that. If Apple has to “rearchitect” to put into place these small changes there is something significantly wrong with the current design. Looks more like you are limb walking.

btw - as of 15.x - forget which beta - there was code referencing sideloading. It is something Apple has been looking at.

 

[dk001]

That is between you and the developer isn't it? If Apple is prohibiting devs from transferring license's then you could have a point. I would totally agree with Apple making it easier to transfer such licenses. I would note that many devs won't do that. The same way you have to buy a separate license for a PC install and a Mac install.

You really need to stop beating a dead horse.
This allusion was your premise and not something I raised.

 

[dk001]

It is already there. South Korea settlement and ACM fines are after convictions.

There doesn’t need to be a “conviction” for the Government to see , anti-trust, monopoly, anti-consumer behavior and elect to address or regulate the perceived problem.

 

[I7guy]

I have an iPhone, an iPad Pro, a MacBook Pro, couple of pods and an Apple TV.
I have a couple of hundred apps, maybe more, some free, some paid, some subscription.
I have peripherals that are Apple specific.

Now I am going to change from my iPhone to an Android.
Cost of the phone
Cost of the peripherals
Cost of the Apps
Cost of the subscriptions if they are OS specific

Then there is the Future cost if you decide that Apple is no longer your way and you start looking at your other Apple and supporting Apple products.

In the end it can vary from under $1k (phone cost) to quite a bit more, say a couple of grand. Then you start getting potentially into the other Apple products.

I maintain both Android and iOS/iPadOS And am very aware of the cost.


Rearchitect? Not sure where you are coming from on that. If Apple has to “rearchitect” to put into place these small changes there is something significantly wrong with the current design. Looks more like you are limb walking.

btw - as of 15.x - forget which beta - there was code referencing sideloading. It is something Apple has been looking at.

You have sunk costs that there shouldn’t be any expectation of recovering. It’s not an uncommon situation in this world.

 

[dk001]

And here is Apple's solution:

Distributing dating apps in the Netherlands - Support - Apple Developer

developer.apple.com

Apple had to create new developer resources specifically for "dating apps in the Netherlands"

That sentence makes me chuckle.

?

Not when you know why that specific item was allowed to proceed.

 

[I7guy]

There doesn’t need to be a “conviction” for the Government to see , anti-trust, monopoly, anti-consumer behavior and elect to address or regulate the perceived problem.

A conviction is “proof”.