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There needs to be some. Take this "everyday" example: Walk into your local pharmacy (CVS, Walgreens, Walmart), walk to the OTC drug aisle and look at allergy meds, pain meds, other meds. The generic store brands looks very similar to the original OTC brands. So if I launch a new version of Tylenol, a generic look alike will be on the shelves within weeks. As a consumer I know by name the original vs. the generic. You can apply this to TV's, DVR players, computers, printers, etc...
If there is an exact copy of some portion the original developer / owner finds offensive (example: the number and alignment of mascara brush bristles), they sue. Not for hundreds of millions either. If found guilty, the offensive item is changed and commerce / development continues. This Apple / Samsung mess (and I mean that term) is monetarily out of control. The devices are not even the same. They have the same general appearance, but...
This needs to be heard if nothing other than to set realistic limits and boundaries.

You are conflating patent and trademark law as far as consumers knowing the names. As far as patents go, if you patent a new version of a drug, and someone copies your work to sell the copy for less--taking away your sales based on your work--you would have some protection to stop the copying.

It's not the Supreme Court's place to set limits here. This ship has sailed based on the current law. It's Congress' job to set the limits you seek.
 
You are conflating patent and trademark law as far as consumers knowing the names. As far as patents go, if you patent a new version of a drug, and someone copies your work to sell the copy for less--taking away your sales based on your work--you would have some protection to stop the copying.

It's not the Supreme Court's place to set limits here. This ship has sailed based on the current law. It's Congress' job to set the limits you seek.

You miss the point. Most of the alleged infringes Samsung did were not exacts, rather looks or acts like. It's not that they copied the "active ingredient" rather the look and feel of the package. For those few they did an exact copy, the monetary penalty far far exceeds the intent. this is what SCOTUS needs to look at. That single item after the original law does not, should not apply in todays landscape.
 
Much of the country is not siding with Apple, and you know this how?

Hopefully you realized by the context that I was taking about legalists in this country.

Can you list any jurist, company or other group that's gone on record as backing Apple in their opposition to the Supreme Court hearing Samsung's appeal? I don't know of any.

As has been pointed out, the irony is that if Apple wasn't involved in the case, it's a good bet they'd also be supporting Samsung's appeal instead of opposing it.

(When sued, Apple has... just like Samsung... argued time and again that the back royalties they have to pay should be proportionate to a patent's contribution, instead of a larger more arbitrary amount. Heck, they're doing that right now over the VirnetX utility patents.)

--

If it makes you feel any better, the external support is almost entirely only for the part of the appeal that is related to design patent award amounts, which could adversely affect everyone in the future (Apple included).

Few threw in any comments about the other part that was more related to Judge Koh's (lack of) instructions.
 
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Could someone explain to me why they have sued especially Samsung and not any other OEM or Google?

Because Samsung was pretty blatant ripping off phone design, even making the Android interface look more like iOS right out of the box with their skinning and default app placement.

On the other hand Apple's claims about Google copying iOS is just bitter resentment of Google entering into (and eventually dominating) the mobile OS market. Most people will never mistake vanilla Android as iOS simply because Google does not put all app icons on their home-screen and lets users place apps, along with widgets, on their home-screen.

It's a very thin claim that Google "ripped off" iOS design which is why Apple has not pursued it. Apple is only going to go after a slam dunk.
 
There needs to be some. Take this "everyday" example: Walk into your local pharmacy (CVS, Walgreens, Walmart), walk to the OTC drug aisle and look at allergy meds, pain meds, other meds. The generic store brands looks very similar to the original OTC brands. So if I launch a new version of Tylenol, a generic look alike will be on the shelves within weeks. As a consumer I know by name the original vs. the generic. You can apply this to TV's, DVR players, computers, printers, etc...
If there is an exact copy of some portion the original developer / owner finds offensive (example: the number and alignment of mascara brush bristles), they sue. Not for hundreds of millions either. If found guilty, the offensive item is changed and commerce / development continues. This Apple / Samsung mess (and I mean that term) is monetarily out of control. The devices are not even the same. They have the same general appearance, but...
This needs to be heard if nothing other than to set realistic limits and boundaries.

I think there's a lot of grey there. Here's the thing; a company that tweaks the LTE signal to get slightly faster throughput can be protected and earn millions in royalties over 20 years, but a device as revolutionary as the iPhone which upended multiple industries and companies can't be protected?

I think the problem is that the laws are outdated and the judicial system can't keep up; clearly not an easy fix.

As for the case's financial impact, I still think Samsung should consider themselves lucky; maybe even declare it a victory and move on. $550mm is a slap on the wrist compared to how much they made riding on Apple's coat tails.
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It's a very thin claim that Google "ripped off" iOS design which is why Apple has not pursued it. Apple is only going to go after a slam dunk.

It's not a thin claim. Andy Rubin admitted as much when he said they went back to the drawing board once they saw Steve Jobs unveil the iPhone.

http://www.theatlantic.com/technolo...y-google-had-to-start-over-on-android/282479/

The reason why Apple never pursued Google was because Android is free which makes it hard to claim damages in court. That's why Apple went after Android OEMs instead.
 
I think there's a lot of grey there. Here's the thing; a company that tweaks the LTE signal to get slightly faster throughput can be protected and earn millions in royalties over 20 years, but a device as revolutionary as the iPhone which upended multiple industries and companies can't be protected?

I think the problem is that the laws are outdated and the judicial system can't keep up; clearly not an easy fix.

As for the case's financial impact, I still think Samsung should consider themselves lucky; maybe even declare it a victory and move on. $550mm is a slap on the wrist compared to how much they made riding on Apple's coat tails.
[doublepost=1454950749][/doublepost]

It's not a thin claim. Andy Rubin admitted as much when he said they went back to the drawing board once they saw Steve Jobs unveil the iPhone.

http://www.theatlantic.com/technolo...y-google-had-to-start-over-on-android/282479/

The reason why Apple never pursued Google was because Android is free which makes it hard to claim damages in court. That's why Apple went after Android OEMs instead.

I think that is the problem in a nutshell. I did buy a couple of Galaxy devices (S2 and Nexus) however it wasn't because of anything Apple; I owned iPhones at the time. It was that outside of Droid Verizon (I'm on AT&T), the Galaxy was the next best. Look and feel isn't illegal and IMO the penalty was a "huh!?!". Audi headlamps ;)

For the Google - Android remake after seeing what Apple was doing with the iPhone, that is not illegal at all. "ACME is going round? Oh heck yes!!! That's a winner! We have got to go roundish!" and they do. I think that has always been a sore spot with me; Apple showed everything to make Samsung and Apple look as alike as possible while Samsung usually showed it as different. Neither side showed how it was really used by you or me.
 
I think there's a lot of grey there. Here's the thing; a company that tweaks the LTE signal to get slightly faster throughput can be protected and earn millions in royalties over 20 years, but a device as revolutionary as the iPhone which upended multiple industries and companies can't be protected?

If it included new inventions, of course they should be protectable. But the iPhone was almost entirely a consumer refinement of many already known or used features.
  • It was not the first all touch smartphone. The first smartphone in the world, the 1993-4 Simon, was that.
  • Although it was the first consumer phone with multi-touch capacitive touch, it was not the first announced or shown as a prototype. In fact, by 2006 analysts were predicting that capacitive screens would take off in 2007 and replace resistive.
  • It was not the first to use orientation sensors to flip between portrait and landscape.
  • It was not the first mobile device to have an icon grid, or flat screen, or slide-to-unlock, or flick scrolling, or green phone icons, microphone images or any of that other UI stuff that those ignorant of history tend to bring up.
  • It was certainly not the first to have Google Maps, app stores, search and so forth. In fact, it was missing major common items at first like MMS, a video cam, and third party SDK.
a_touch_history1.png


Even the looks were not new. By 2006, there was a nice subset of devices that were heading towards large touchscreens on a rounded rectangle body. For small example:

touch_evolution.png


Heck, at the time that the first iPhone went on sale in summer 2007, Toshiba was selling the world's first "retina" (print quality) smartphone with >300 DPI WVGA screen and fingerprint sensor... things Apple didn't have until years later.

By the way, notice a couple of interesting items there. One is this mid-2006 Samsung touch oriented phone that came out a half year before Apple demo'd their partly working iPhone prototype:

2006_samsung_SGH-Z610.png


Of more interest in relation to the California trial, are these images of phones that Samsung was working on:

samsung_phone_concepts.png


Apple's lawyers were so hot to claim that Samsung had copied the iPhone shape, that they accidentally included the Samsung F700... well known to have been in development beforehand... in their list of infringing devices.

Of course, then Apple's lawyers made sure that the jury never saw the image above. Instead the jury only saw Apple's infamous cherry-picked poster of "Samsung before and after" that I'm sure you know so well.

Apple's lawyers made sure that Samsung's 2006 prototype Ireen UI design was banned as evidence, too. After all, what would a jury think if it had seen this image:

samsung_ui_concept.png


It's also interesting to note that it's well known that in mid 2005, Apple was still using iPods as "iPhone" UI test mules. They even filed for a patent on an iPod phone, which Jobs later mocked as form of self-protection.

after_pidion2.png

What most people do NOT know, is that a Korean smartphone maker came out in 2005 with a device that looked remarkably like the half-decade later iPhone 4... and much like the phone prototype later shown to the jury by Apple.

Spookily, Unwired magazine in 2005 accurately predicted that Apple might use a similar design.

With prior art like that, it's small wonder that Apple's lawyers also got the Pidion banned from the Koh trial. Good idea, since when the Pidion was later displayed to EU courts, Apple lost their "we invented the iPhone shape" trials every time.

This is just the tip of the iceberg. Most consumers have little to no idea of smartphones and ideas that came before Apple decided to take advantage of the world market and infrastructure that so many other companies had spent years and billions creating.

The reason Apple "up-ended" things, was because they were brand new to smartphones and thus had no legacy button devices to stay compatible with. This allowed them to go straight to an all touch device. (Of course later on, Apple got stuck with small screens for a while because of similar legacy issues, but they pushed through that after a few years.)
 
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It's a shame..to be honest. No companies need to deal with this. Apple is total wrong on this one.

So explain to me what the constitutional issue issue is? Absent that, the Supreme Court would be correct to refuse to hear the case, and the lower courts have upheld the verdict for Apple. Also, what is Apple "total wrong" about?
 
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If it included new inventions, of course they should be protectable. But the iPhone was almost entirely a consumer refinement of many already known or used features.
  • It was not the first all touch smartphone. The first smartphone in the world, the 1993-4 Simon, was that.
  • Although it was the first consumer phone with multi-touch capacitive touch, it was not the first announced or shown as a prototype. In fact, by 2006 analysts were predicting that capacitive screens would take off in 2007 and replace resistive.
  • It was not the first to use orientation sensors to flip between portrait and landscape.
  • It was not the first mobile device to have an icon grid, or flat screen, or slide-to-unlock, or flick scrolling, or green phone icons, microphone images or any of that other UI stuff that those ignorant of history tend to bring up.
  • It was certainly not the first to have Google Maps, app stores, search and so forth. In fact, it was missing major common items at first like MMS, a video cam, and third party SDK.
View attachment 615048

Even the looks were not new. By 2006, there was a nice subset of devices that were heading towards large touchscreens on a rounded rectangle body. For small example:

View attachment 615038

Heck, at the time that the first iPhone went on sale in summer 2007, Toshiba was selling the world's first "retina" (print quality) smartphone with >300 DPI WVGA screen and fingerprint sensor... things Apple didn't have until years later.

By the way, notice a couple of interesting items there. One is this mid-2006 Samsung touch oriented phone that came out a half year before Apple demo'd their partly working iPhone prototype:

View attachment 615035

Of more interest in relation to the California trial, are these images of phones that Samsung was working on:

View attachment 615044

Apple's lawyers were so hot to claim that Samsung had copied the iPhone shape, that they accidentally included the Samsung F700... well known to have been in development beforehand... in their list of infringing devices.

Of course, then Apple's lawyers made sure that the jury never saw the image above. Instead the jury only saw Apple's infamous cherry-picked poster of "Samsung before and after" that I'm sure you know so well.

Apple's lawyers made sure that Samsung's 2006 prototype Ireen UI design was banned as evidence, too. After all, what would a jury think if it had seen this image:

View attachment 615045

It's also interesting to note that it's well known that in mid 2005, Apple was still using iPods as "iPhone" UI test mules. They even filed for a patent on an iPod phone, which Jobs later mocked as form of self-protection.

View attachment 615046
What most people do NOT know, is that a Korean smartphone maker came out in 2005 with a device that looked remarkably like the half-decade later iPhone 4... and much like the phone prototype later shown to the jury by Apple.

Spookily, Unwired magazine in 2005 accurately predicted that Apple might use a similar design.

With prior art like that, it's small wonder that Apple's lawyers also got the Pidion banned from the Koh trial. Good idea, since when the Pidion was later displayed to EU courts, Apple lost their "we invented the iPhone shape" trials every time.

This is just the tip of the iceberg. Most consumers have little to no idea of smartphones and ideas that came before Apple decided to take advantage of the world market and infrastructure that so many other companies had spent years and billions creating.

The reason Apple "up-ended" things, was because they were brand new to smartphones and thus had no legacy button devices to stay compatible with. This allowed them to go straight to an all touch device. (Of course later on, Apple got stuck with small screens for a while because of similar legacy issues, but they pushed through that after a few years.)

Innovation never happens in a vacuum. It's merely connecting the dots of past experiences and synthesizing something new. iPhone was a massive leap in smartphone/computing technology and one of the greatest innovations in modern times.

To refute that is to deny historical fact. That's why the current laws are flawed. It does a better job of protecting minor innovations better than major ones.

While I'm all for competition, the fact of the matter is, Google and Samsung aped the iPhone and benefitted tremendously from it so if Virnetx can collect half a billion from Apple, I would say Samsung, especially with its blatant rip offs of Apple's hardware/software designs should owe far more. Like I said, they got off easy and should be celebrating.

If you're trying to convince me that Samsung didn't copy Apple - legal merits aside, which I can agree is debatable - unless I go blind and lose all sense of judgment and reason, I won't be swayed in the slightest so we might as well stop this discussion here.
 
So explain to me what the constitutional issue issue is? Absent that, the Supreme Court would be correct to refuse to hear the case, and the lower courts have upheld the verdict for Apple. Also, what is Apple "total wrong" about?

Sure, Samsung's petition raises many issues here, but has mostly to do with the Title 35 USC § 171 and its scope and applicability -- or, more broadly, this falls under the Article 1, Section 8, of the US Constitution.

And, no worries, the SCOTUS does hear patent cases all the time or (at least the frequency at which patent cases are heard increased in recent decades). There is at least one recent case, the Alice vs CLS decision (no software patents on well-known abstract ideas) in 2014 for instance, that could have invalidated most of Apple's "utility" patents outright, had Samsung argued it early enough.

Apple is "total wrong" because the implication of Apple's myopic win in this case would be devastating for all US industries unless you are a patent troll. Further, such ridiculous ruling would run counter to apportionment rulings (ie "market demand rule") the courts helped to establish in patent cases.
 
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So explain to me what the constitutional issue issue is? Absent that, the Supreme Court would be correct to refuse to hear the case, and the lower courts have upheld the verdict for Apple. Also, what is Apple "total wrong" about?
Getting into patent war. With all that suing vs. samsung and others (don't ask for specifics because I don't remember), this has some influence in causing other businesses to be ruthless among each and go for suing.
 
It's not a thin claim. Andy Rubin admitted as much when he said they went back to the drawing board once they saw Steve Jobs unveil the iPhone.
http://www.theatlantic.com/technolo...y-google-had-to-start-over-on-android/282479/

Rubin didn't say that. He said they couldn't ship the non-touch version they had originally planned on being first. "I guess we’re not going to ship that phone.”

What you're talking about is a comment from a guy named Chris DeSalvo, who has also worked for Apple, and who was working on apps at the time. No doubt he felt he needed to make them more glamorous and finger-friendly after seeing the iPhone versions.

However, as far as changes to the OS itself, Dianne Hackborn, who has more street cred than most people here, and who was a primary Android developer, corrected that misconception right away:

"The quote from DeSalvo is completely not true. As I said in the original quoted piece, pretty much all of the Android system as released in 1.0 was under development in that shape by early 2006. I can say for the stuff I worked on -- resource system, binder, package manager, window manager, activity manager, parts of the view hierarchy and many of the framework APIs -- none of this changed at all significantly due to the iPhone, and it certainly was in no way shape or form started over. At all. Period. It just did not happen."

So explain to me what the constitutional issue issue is? Absent that, the Supreme Court would be correct to refuse to hear the case,

It doesn't have to be a constitutional issue. It can simply be a question about applying a Federal law.

Note that recently they made a major ruling about software patents. That indicates a willingness to help update lower court interpretations about patents.

As for a possible constitutional tie-in, some of the legal experts who sent support for the appeal have noted that disproportionate damages awards such as giving away a company's entire profits for a tiny design patent, could violate the Fifth Amendment. It also could grant a monopoly to someone holding a tiny patent. And finally, one jurist noted that the Supreme Court itself has said, "[W]here a statute is susceptible of two constructions, by one of which grave and doubtful constitutional questions arise and by the other of which such questions are avoided, our duty is to adopt the latter."

and the lower courts have upheld the verdict for Apple. Also, what is Apple "total wrong" about?

The lower court simply said their hands were tied by law, which is bunk since courts quite often have defined parameters as to how to apply laws in patent cases. So "upheld the verdict" is actually more like "stepped aside so it could be appealed higher."

As for what the poster you're replying to meant about Apple being totally wrong, I suspect that's because Apple itself quite often claims in lawsuits that patents should not be rewarded more than their apportioned contribution to the whole device. (Of course, Apple argues the other way when it's their own patent. Go figure.) In other words, if Apple was not directly involved, it's quite probable that they'd be pushing for a similar appeal. In fact, you watch, they'll appeal the VirnetX award using arguments very similar to Samsung's.
 
Personally I think it should be heard.
The level of detail and the alluded sales impact is significantly different enough that SCOTUS should docket this.
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The legal teams are likely on retainer or in-house counsel. Not seeing ho they win.
[doublepost=1454702612][/doublepost]

We will have to disagree. I see this almost every other consumer sector and none of the things I saw in the lawsuits were specific items that made me buy a Galaxy. Or an iPhone.
So, let's get this clarified and decided.

ON TO SCOTUS!!!
[doublepost=1454702731][/doublepost]

Not saying they didn't copy. What I am disagreement with the is the associated alleged impact to sales or lack of sales and associated profit.
I didn't make my point well enough.
Yes, I understand that you did not decide to buy a Galaxy or iPhone based on these infringements. I get it. You are observant and able to decipher the differences. You probably, by nature, are the type of shopper who digs in and compares pretty much anything you buy whether it be phones, cars, TVs, apples and bananas, etc.

But Apple was making the argument that the general public was being PURPOSEFULLY misled by samsung into thinking the devices would give the same results and that wasn't true. They actually advertised having the safari web browser. That alone is false advertising, but apple's arguments were a distillation of all these facets of how Samsung purposefully and willfully intended to copy their product.

Did you not see the multipage report by samsung engineers that specifically compared their device to the iphone in great detail and was summarized with direction that they need to make it more like the iphone?

I'm not saying these things fooled you or made you decide whatever you decided. I'm saying these are the tactics of samsung, proven time and again, and they are illegal tactics.
[doublepost=1455053921][/doublepost]
Getting into patent war. With all that suing vs. samsung and others (don't ask for specifics because I don't remember), this has some influence in causing other businesses to be ruthless among each and go for suing.

Do you realize that in order to hold a patent you are required to fight for it's validity. The responsibility to defend a patent is on the patent holder. Apple patentetd as much as they could for the iPhone prior to it's release because they know it was a revolutionary product. When Steve Jobs unveiled it he specifically said they held X amounts of patents and intend to defend them. They gave fair warning and when samsung decided to copy it, it was Apple's duty to sue them in order to get their patents upheld. It's expected.
 
Did you not see the multipage report by samsung engineers that specifically compared their device to the iphone in great detail and was summarized with direction that they need to make it more like the iphone?

Every company does such comparisons.

Heck, one of the revelations in the trial, was that the origin of Apple coming out with the iPad mini was when an Apple VP used a 7" Samsung tablet for a while. He discovered that smaller tablets really worked well after all... despite Jobs' public claims that you'd need to sandpaper your fingers to use anything smaller than a 10" screen.

Do you realize that in order to hold a patent you are required to fight for it's validity.

You're thinking of trademarks. You don't have to sue anyone to keep a patent valid.

On the contrary, that's a really good way to get others to challenge the validity, and thereafter lose some of your patent claims, as happened to Apple.

The only reason to sue earlier in patent cases, is that after about three years or so of knowing about an infringement, your chances of getting full monetary restitution for that past infringement begin to rapidly fade.
 
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I didn't make my point well enough.
Yes, I understand that you did not decide to buy a Galaxy or iPhone based on these infringements. I get it. You are observant and able to decipher the differences. You probably, by nature, are the type of shopper who digs in and compares pretty much anything you buy whether it be phones, cars, TVs, apples and bananas, etc.

But Apple was making the argument that the general public was being PURPOSEFULLY misled by samsung into thinking the devices would give the same results and that wasn't true. They actually advertised having the safari web browser. That alone is false advertising, but apple's arguments were a distillation of all these facets of how Samsung purposefully and willfully intended to copy their product.

Did you not see the multipage report by samsung engineers that specifically compared their device to the iphone in great detail and was summarized with direction that they need to make it more like the iphone?

I'm not saying these things fooled you or made you decide whatever you decided. I'm saying these are the tactics of samsung, proven time and again, and they are illegal tactics.
[doublepost=1455053921][/doublepost]

Do you realize that in order to hold a patent you are required to fight for it's validity. The responsibility to defend a patent is on the patent holder. Apple patentetd as much as they could for the iPhone prior to it's release because they know it was a revolutionary product. When Steve Jobs unveiled it he specifically said they held X amounts of patents and intend to defend them. They gave fair warning and when samsung decided to copy it, it was Apple's duty to sue them in order to get their patents upheld. It's expected.
There's a point where you need to defend...but constantly attack other companies with patent lawsuit...that's too much.
 
Man, I wish I had a nickel for every poster who has mentioned this document without (a) ever reading it and (b) understanding that every company does such comparisons.

Our company does exactly that but our products don't come out looking exactly like our competitors'. Not even close.

People don't have to read that document to know that Samsung ripped off Apple; just eyes and some common sense. The fact that it exists just proves that the shameless copying wasn't purely coincidental.

Heck, even most Samsung employees (actually everyone that I personally know) will readily admit that they copy Apple, and I know plenty of them... I work with many ex-Samsung employees and have many co-workers who went on to work at Samsung. In fact, they'll joke around about it all the time. It's like in the 90s when Microsoft employees used to joke that their R&D department was in Cupertino.

Personally, I'm more fascinated by why you're so passionate about this, especially on an Apple fan site. Are you employed by Samsung? Or do you just hate Apple with every cell of your being?

BTW, Google's "touch" phone that they speak of was nothing like the iPhone. That was just PR cover up. The frameworks they had in place were meant to work like the "touch" phones of that time (i.e., very badly). There's a reason why it took them 5 years to catch up in usability to the iPhone. I was given a seed unit of the G1 and it was clearly not ready for prime time. The thing had a trackball for crying out loud. There's a reason why there's no physical evidence of an iPhone-like phone having been in development before the iPhone announcement but you saw plenty of pics of the blackberry "inspired" Android phone, right? Trackball and all?
 
I didn't make my point well enough.
Yes, I understand that you did not decide to buy a Galaxy or iPhone based on these infringements. I get it. You are observant and able to decipher the differences. You probably, by nature, are the type of shopper who digs in and compares pretty much anything you buy whether it be phones, cars, TVs, apples and bananas, etc.

But Apple was making the argument that the general public was being PURPOSEFULLY misled by samsung into thinking the devices would give the same results and that wasn't true. They actually advertised having the safari web browser. That alone is false advertising, but apple's arguments were a distillation of all these facets of how Samsung purposefully and willfully intended to copy their product.

Did you not see the multipage report by samsung engineers that specifically compared their device to the iphone in great detail and was summarized with direction that they need to make it more like the iphone?

I'm not saying these things fooled you or made you decide whatever you decided. I'm saying these are the tactics of samsung, proven time and again, and they are illegal tactics.

Not disagreeing with the reports at all.
Personally I made a decision to buy a smartphone, looked at what I wanted, then compared models.
I elected to go with Android and after comparing models bought a Galaxy. I never did a head to head comparison between the iPhone and the Galaxy. I looked at OS's and decided on Android. (btw: I use both these days).

But let's flip this, and this is the only real spot I have an issue with. I buy a home stereo receiver. The top two models (different companies) are both black. Company B copies the knob design and the power switch design of Company A. Company A files a lawsuit, wins, and is awarded pretty much all of or a significant percentage of the profits of Company B.
The look may have attracted my attention but the knobs didn't convince me to buy. This is similar to what I am seeing with a lot of the lawsuits. Copy something small, not significant to the overall working of the device and get seriously (IMO) over penalized based on an antiquated law.

Maybe it's just me.
 
Our company does exactly that but our products don't come out looking exactly like our competitors'. Not even close.

People don't have to read that document to know that Samsung ripped off Apple; just eyes and some common sense. The fact that it exists just proves that the shameless copying wasn't purely coincidental.

Heck, even most Samsung employees (actually everyone that I personally know) will readily admit that they copy Apple, and I know plenty of them... I work with many ex-Samsung employees and have many co-workers who went on to work at Samsung. In fact, they'll joke around about it all the time. It's like in the 90s when Microsoft employees used to joke that their R&D department was in Cupertino.

Personally, I'm more fascinated by why you're so passionate about this, especially on an Apple fan site. Are you employed by Samsung? Or do you just hate Apple with every cell of your being?

BTW, Google's "touch" phone that they speak of was nothing like the iPhone. That was just PR cover up. The frameworks they had in place were meant to work like the "touch" phones of that time (i.e., very badly). There's a reason why it took them 5 years to catch up in usability to the iPhone. I was given a seed unit of the G1 and it was clearly not ready for prime time. The thing had a trackball for crying out loud. There's a reason why there's no physical evidence of an iPhone-like phone having been in development before the iPhone announcement but you saw plenty of pics of the blackberry "inspired" Android phone, right? Trackball and all?

You are son wrong on so much of this post - I just can't.
 
Well, that comment is a lot easier than refuting the facts I guess. :rolleyes:

It's nicer than your own method of replying with personal attacks when you can't refute facts:

Personally, I'm more fascinated by why you're so passionate about this, especially on an Apple fan site. Are you employed by Samsung? Or do you just hate Apple with every cell of your being?

I usually post to correct engineering misunderstandings and to try to help others understand what the basis of patent discussions are about.

I also often post because there are more than a few of us here who have decades long experience in these fields (touch and cellular), and we would not like that history to be lost. The pioneers should not be forgotten.

If you're trying to convince me that Samsung didn't copy Apple - legal merits aside, which I can agree is debatable - unless I go blind and lose all sense of judgment and reason, I won't be swayed in the slightest so we might as well stop this discussion here.

I'm not trying to convince you of anything. As you said, you're not open to discussion.

Others might be interested in details that are almost always left out of the most commonly repeated stories. Then they can make up their own minds.

Innovation never happens in a vacuum. It's merely connecting the dots of past experiences and synthesizing something new. iPhone was a massive leap in smartphone/computing technology and one of the greatest innovations in modern times.

To many of us who had been using touch smartphones and tablets for many years beforehand, it was not such a "massive leap", especially at first when it was missing common items like 3G, GPS, MMS, video and even third party apps.

Certainly though, I appreciated Apple a lot for making a lot of known ideas popular. It helped make my skills more popular as well, since I'd been doing capacitive screens since 1991, and touch longer than that.
 
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Not disagreeing with the reports at all.
Personally I made a decision to buy a smartphone, looked at what I wanted, then compared models.
I elected to go with Android and after comparing models bought a Galaxy. I never did a head to head comparison between the iPhone and the Galaxy. I looked at OS's and decided on Android. (btw: I use both these days).

But let's flip this, and this is the only real spot I have an issue with. I buy a home stereo receiver. The top two models (different companies) are both black. Company B copies the knob design and the power switch design of Company A. Company A files a lawsuit, wins, and is awarded pretty much all of or a significant percentage of the profits of Company B.
The look may have attracted my attention but the knobs didn't convince me to buy. This is similar to what I am seeing with a lot of the lawsuits. Copy something small, not significant to the overall working of the device and get seriously (IMO) over penalized based on an antiquated law.

Maybe it's just me.
Fair enough explanation on your point of view.
Here are a few details that I think highlight why I don't completely agree with you.

Your example is not necessarily based on any patents or copyright. However, when the first amps were designed and made, if Company A had a patent and/or copyright on certain aspects of their invention or their design, those aspects could not legally we copied. If that amp had sliding touch bar instead of a spinning knob, and it was the first to get a patent on that design, then they would rightfully be able to sue Company B for making their amp with a very similar touch bar.

My point here is that these are the rules of the game. This is the game that apple and samsung play. They know the rules. One company played by those rules and the other didn't, so they get slapped/penalized/fined whatever the rules of that game allow for.

You might think the rules of this game are outdated, or that perhaps apple shouldn't have been awarded their patents and copyrights. IF so, your problem is with the game, the legal system that created these rules to play by. You can't honestly hold a grudge against a player who is playing not only by the rules of the game, but by the spirit of those rules. You CAN, get angry at the rule makers and ask them to change the rules perhaps.

Lastly, in your example of the amps these days, the design patents on the first amps that featured a slick front panel with e spinning knob have expired after roughly 10 years. After that point, yes, others can make the same thing essentially. This is why you see amps, blenders, TVs, microwaves, etc that all pretty much use the same design.. because the patent on those designs has expired. The iPhone patents and such haven't past the expiration point yet.
 
My point here is that these are the rules of the game. This is the game that apple and samsung play. They know the rules. One company played by those rules and the other didn't, so they get slapped/penalized/fined whatever the rules of that game allow for.

You're right, but companies also constantly try to change the rules.

Look at Apple and FRAND rates. Most every other phone company on the planet signed cross-patent licenses in order to mutually lower their cellular patent costs, sometimes to almost nothing. Along comes Apple who wanted the same kind of rates... without cross-licensing. They wanted to change the rules so they could be treated special.

In the current example, Samsung's appeal has a lot of backing because most companies (Apple included, judging from their arguments in other trials) believe that they should only pay awards based on the percentage of contribution a patent gives towards a device or its sale.

The whole point of that side of the appeal, is that a design patent should not have artificially higher value than utility patents, nor should even minor design patents comprising a tiny part of a device be allowed to be awarded with full profits on that device.

Leaving company names aside, I think anyone with common sense would agree that the application of this law needs some better definition, which something courts do all the time with patent cases.

Cheers!
 
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