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It's highly unethical for Apple to continue selling Aperture in the App Store.

Why? Because it will be updated only for one more OS version?

There are developers who are selling software that they don't offer any support for whatsoever. Aperture will get at least one more year of support, and even after that, it will not stop working, and it will still benefit from the OS-wide RAW updates.
 
Why not search for a few photography professionals to test the app and provide feedback as well. No offense to the enthusiasts that may work at Apple retail stores.

Some of the folks that work at Apple stores are photography pros. They work part time at places like Apple for the health insurance etc.

At my boyfriends store they have four such folks. They also have three freelance composers among other gigs.

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In how far is that worse for these occasions than the "Events" you currently have in iPhoto? It's just a name.

My only issues are with the apparent elimination of the viewing by places and faces. As being able to tag those as well as add keywords, titles etc.

Otherwise I don't care if they are called events, moments or just dates. I've spent a lot of time organizing my photos, face tagging (with 17 siblings, 27 nieces and nephews and like 60 cousins it's important), etc I don't want to lose that. If this is basically just iPhoto's organization with Apertures editing power etc then okay.

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It's highly unethical for Apple to continue selling Aperture in the App Store.

You might want to check a dictionary cause no it would not be unethical at all.
 
I dumped Aperture for Lightroom when I transitioned to the Surface Pro line. That said, I always enjoyed using Aperture. Sort of sad, it's no longer going to be around. There definitely seems to be a 'dumbing' down of Apple's products as of late. Not in the good way they used to streamline things so it was easier to use, but a definite shift towards targeting basic functions (look at the new Pages app) as compared to something more fully featured but easy to use.

As for the person who thinks that this new app will be destructive - when was the last time Apple released anything that was an editor that was destructive? Even editing photos on my iPhone is non-destructive. I love that about Apple editors.
 
I agree, while it may be fun for an enthusiast to test the new software, and while it is cost-effective for Apple to not have to pay them, a professional photographer would be a much more seasoned beta-tester, and would know what to look for in recommending new features and spotting bugs.

Although professional photographers may know more about the subject area, that doesn't necessarily make them better beta testers. Successful beta testing is as dependent on the user's ability to methodically put an application through its paces, documenting bugs and the steps that produce them, as anything else. In many cases, it's advantageous to recruit less sophisticated users who may be more likely to push the envelope and find bugs, even if inadvertently.

So, if Apple were going to do a limited public beta, as they are with Yosemite, I think they should look for a broad spectrum, ranging from digital photo novices to people with extensive experience.
 
Apple would then laugh at them because Apple has a bigger, more lucrative, picture in mind, clearly.

Oh, clearly. That much is not in dispute. The thing that kills me is that they EOLed the Pro photo app and left the other pro apps alone. It feels like a devaluing of their philosophy. I used to love that 'Steve slide' showing the intersection of technology and liberal arts. Made me feel like Apple was the only company who got it. Now it's looking more like the intersection of technology, the liberal arts and the lucrative angle. This in spite of the fact that they're rolling in cash. The emphasis on this makes Apple feel more like a Microsoft.

I totally get that they're a business. I totally get they need to make money and all that. It just feels like this is the first time that cash truly got the better of what would most benefit the users, or rather one large segment of the users. That's the real bitter pill, and a dangerous precedent.

I mean, I hope against hope that this new solution will blow my doors off and I'll happily eat all the crow you like if it turns out to be so, and the Apple magic delivers. Right now though I can't see how something like a pro photography workflow can be entirely cloud based. There's just too much data, and the technology isn't there to take it off the local machine.
 
I just pulled about 10k photos out of iPhoto and it was a hassle. I had to install some external software and scripts to pull out all the tags and GPS data that I had entered. I got tired of pictures mysteriously disappearing from iPhoto with no idea what the photo was. I really dislike how it stores all the photos in a proprietary location and manner.

As a Pro photographer I converted to Light Room from Aperture a few years ago and its worlds better at everything. At about $80 its a steal for an Adobe product. I am attempting to use LR for all my photos because of its great tagging and other features.

I see the new Photos app as having a few distinct advantages, first, it will integrate easily across devices and the web so if I take an iPhone picture its already at full rez in Photos. Second, it looks like it will have some high end editing ability, perfect for the weekend-warrier DSLR crowd who buy DSLRs and put them on "auto". Also handy for touching up the iPhone photos. Lastly, I'm sure it will have good integration with other services like Facebook/flicker and printing/album making.

I could see my self using the new Photos app for everything but my Pro level images that need re-touching. However, I don't trust apple to manage my photos and metadata anymore. I think they are going in the right direction hitting the mark for 80% of their users. I just dont think I'm their target market.

On a side note, I am a Dev using iOS8 and overnight I hit my iCloud storage limit as apple uploaded ALL of the photos and video to iCloud at full rez and I was forced to disable the feature. It is a great idea but with the 10's of thousands of photos I take a year on all of my cameras I can't afford to pay for another service to host and sync my images. Their are a few iOS apps that will sync/backup with Light Room and replicate apples functionality here.
 
Um, what about developers?

I'm still an "iTunes Pulse" member, Apple's idea of selecting a few to give input on ways to improve iTunes. So far, not many of the comments/idea's have taken hold, and many are great.
 
They should ask pro photographers

They did it for Aperture years ago. Why not now?

As an Aperture user since v1.0. I would be happy to be a beta tester for the new Photos app.

:D
 
This is my biggest worry. Apple hasn't mentioned or shown any evidence that metadata can be viewed or edited with Photos. Smart albums based on ratings, keywords, labels, etc are critical for me. I'm very excited to maintain my library through Photos on iOS, but it will be worthless for me if my whole library is just dumped into the huge mess that Moments is currently. The Dev forums for iOS 8 aren't very encouraging either. It would seem backwards now that they are pushing keywords/tags in Finder. But you'd also think they would have added that to the iPad with the release of the CCK...
That's one of the biggest issues for me, too; metadata management, sorting and searching, all critical, one of the things I disliked about Lightroom when I was evaluating it when LR4 came out. If Apple doesn't provide solid digital asset management, that is an opening for someone to provide a good plugin to do. Moments is fine as a replacement for the Events/Projects view, but metadata tagging and searching is critical. There are many unanswered questions, but since there are no answers forthcoming anytime soon, I just get on with using Aperture and I'll worry more as details start to come out; moving to anything else like Lightroom would be extremely difficult and messy regardless, something I wish to avoid at all cost.
 
It will be *fast moving* since Apple changes their mind every second.

Just when you think its in cermet, Apple pulls a fast one on us :p
 
Oh, clearly. That much is not in dispute. The thing that kills me is that they EOLed the Pro photo app and left the other pro apps alone. It feels like a devaluing of their philosophy. I used to love that 'Steve slide' showing the intersection of technology and liberal arts. Made me feel like Apple was the only company who got it.
They still got it, and they are proving it by making professional features more and more available to non-professional users. Jobs was all about making things simple that should be simple and that are unnecessarily complicated. That is what made Jobs special and that is what makes Apple special - and not catering to niche groups. Computers were unnecessarily complicated. Jobs' answers were OS X and iOS. By creating photo apps that make professional-level editing more accessible to non-pro users, they are doing the same thing. I don't understand the claim that they are doing it for money. Photos will be free, while Aperture is not, yet Aperture will be discontinued. Sure, Apple is not doing this out of charity either, but it's not like they are creating some huge cash cow here.

Watch the presentation of Photos and see how there were sliders to change certain "high level" adjustments that then automatically changed the "lower level" adjustments. That makes this kind of adjustment more accessible to non-pros, and they can learn how it actually works, while the pros can still tweak the sliders for the lower level adjustments, just as they have done before. Some pros might feel that this is a dumbing down, but to me that claim is just elitism of a group that would prefer to have elite knowledge and skills that others can't replicate too easily.

You complain that Apple is leaving a group behind and even call it a dangerous precedent. Yet you completely neglect to mention that a much much larger group is benefitting from this. An astonishing level of egoism in my eyes.

Sure, Apple could just improve iPhoto with new features and leave Aperture alive, but then they'd have two applications with 98% overlapping features.

I mean, I hope against hope that this new solution will blow my doors off and I'll happily eat all the crow you like if it turns out to be so, and the Apple magic delivers. Right now though I can't see how something like a pro photography workflow can be entirely cloud based.
Who said that it will be entirely cloud based?

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This is my biggest worry. Apple hasn't mentioned or shown any evidence that metadata can be viewed or edited with Photos. Smart albums based on ratings, keywords, labels, etc are critical for me. I'm very excited to maintain my library through Photos on iOS, but it will be worthless for me if my whole library is just dumped into the huge mess that Moments is currently.

I strongly doubt it, as they are planning to offer up to 1TB of cloud storage space for photos, which indicates that they know quite well how big photo libraries can become.

And in the end, I don't see a reason why it should not be possible to have a complex album hierarchy in Photos while maintaining compatibility with the iOS photos app.
 
"Today, with cameras as pervasive as they are there’s no such thing really as professional photographers."
 
Note the wording of what Apple is looking for:

"We are seeking a technical and passionate photography enthusiast to join our Quality Assurance team working on Photos for OS X. You will be part of a fast moving team of specialists tasked with delivering the next generation of photography tools for Apple."

They are looking for an enthusiast, singular. One person (or perhaps not more than a handful), who will work directly at Corporate alongside the development team.

This is standard procedure for Apple... Retail staff are invited to apply for three to six month "career experiences" in non-retail teams away from the store.

It's not an open beta. Not knowing the context of this announcement makes it easy to assume such. Retail staff go to Corp (Cup, SCV, Austin, and others) on career experiences all the time.
 
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Some of the folks that work at Apple stores are photography pros. They work part time at places like Apple for the health insurance etc.

At my boyfriends store they have four such folks. They also have three freelance composers among other gigs.

Thank you for calling this out. Despite the derision sometimes aimed here at Specialists, Apple hires a pretty diverse and knowledgable group of people from many professions as part-timers. Teachers, musicians, engineers, you name it.
 
Here's hoping some of the testers have thousands of photos already filed under iPhoto and they need to maintain logical simple access to them.

The filing of photos into folders on iPhoto is a Byzantine mess leaving this user scratching f his head while trying to find his pics in the finder.

Apple please don't abandon us longtime iPhoto users who have 1 TB of photos in iPhoto. There should be a path to normalize at least the finder storage of iPhoto's pics.

Thanks

Well iPhoto is a database and library manager. You're not supposed to look for your photos using the finder. You're supposed to look for them using iPhoto or Aperture. The new Photos app is supposed to have some built in smart searches to make searching through your photos a whole lot easier.
 
Sounds interesting in theory. I use most of the photo programs available including Adobe products, CaptureOne, DxO, iPhoto and Aperture. Of the lot I prefer Lightroom as the most reliable and well supported.

With consideration to Apple's history, I'm not sure they have the will to make this thing' work. They have a horrible track record on publishing updates and bug fixes with this type of software, especially with Aperture.
 
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The differentiation of wether or not someone makes their living out of photography says little to nothing about their skill levels as a photographer or their demands for post-processing software.

But it actually does. If you're an amateur, you're probably dealing with a different set of needs. You're not dealing with clients because your only "client" is yourself. You're not under as much time/efficiency pressure because you have all weekend to noodle around until you like what you see, vs. having another shoot to get to to pay your bills. You don't have to collaborate with assistants handling your files. You are probably archiving a fraction of the number of files a professional is generating. The list could go on and on.

How "good" of a photographer you are is basically irrelevant in this discussion when we're talking about the demands of a *professional* workflow in running a *business*. Sure, the input of enthusiasts is probably quite valuable, but the general trend a lot of people are bothered by is that Apple is moving away from software aimed squarely at working professionals and toward software aimed at enthusiats. Two different groups of people with different (though overlapping) needs.
 
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They still got it, and they are proving it by making professional features more and more available to non-professional users. Jobs was all about making things simple that should be simple and that are unnecessarily complicated. That is what made Jobs special and that is what makes Apple special - and not catering to niche groups. Computers were unnecessarily complicated. Jobs' answers were OS X and iOS. By creating photo apps that make professional-level editing more accessible to non-pro users, they are doing the same thing. I don't understand the claim that they are doing it for money. Photos will be free, while Aperture is not, yet Aperture will be discontinued. Sure, Apple is not doing this out of charity either, but it's not like they are creating some huge cash cow here.

Watch the presentation of Photos and see how there were sliders to change certain "high level" adjustments that then automatically changed the "lower level" adjustments. That makes this kind of adjustment more accessible to non-pros, and they can learn how it actually works, while the pros can still tweak the sliders for the lower level adjustments, just as they have done before. Some pros might feel that this is a dumbing down, but to me that claim is just elitism of a group that would prefer to have elite knowledge and skills that others can't replicate too easily.

You complain that Apple is leaving a group behind and even call it a dangerous precedent. Yet you completely neglect to mention that a much much larger group is benefitting from this. An astonishing level of egoism in my eyes.

I'm willing to bet many of the complainers aren't professional photographers so I'm not convinced that its elitism or egoism. I'm not a photographer but I use DSLRs professionally and Aperture and other apps too. The issue for me, and maybe for others is not that these 'professional features' are being given to the unworthy, its that they could be effectively taken away from the professionals. How? By putting the features into software that just isn't appropriate for the workplace.

I'm certain Photos is going to be heavily iCloud integrated, so much so that I'm prepared to bet that all the big sell features when it's demoed will be all about iCloud. Sure, it will have some neat editing features, but the new stuff will be focussed on multi-device sync, feature parity with iOS and personal sharing features - to friends, blogs, flickr etc. For the professionals we'll have no more than we had five years ago, possibly less, and quite probably a UI that over promotes personal usage and a reliance on a cloud service that just isn't remotely geared towards professional use.

Hints of this are scattered throughout OSX and iOS and it seems to be getting worse. People make music on Macs, but all the music organisation feature concern personal music collections. People make movies, but Apple thinks they are all 'home movies'. When we make photos Apple will think we want them to pop up on our TV during our leisure time.

As to how Apple are making money off this, I've said it before - they're giving us freebies to get us tangled into a cloud infrastructure, retaining more and more of our data, so that we are constantly at the mercy of iCloud's hardware spec. Photos is an app, but Apple will claim its a core OS component so they can control the OS versions that have access to the service. Professionals can't work like this, upgrading OS all the time, which is why IMO they're being thrown under the bus.
 
They still got it, and they are proving it by making professional features more and more available to non-professional users. Jobs was all about making things simple that should be simple and that are unnecessarily complicated. That is what made Jobs special and that is what makes Apple special - and not catering to niche groups.

Not catering to niche groups? Apple was founded on catering to niche groups. For a while there, the only Apple stalwarts were the pros. Even today, with all their popularity, they are still catering to the niche group of people who can afford the products they create. They make the best. Those who can afford it or care about it are a niche group.

Making things simple is why it's grown. You're totally right. Apple simplifies the best. I've always appreciated that. There's a limit though. Eventually when you *over*simplify the casualty is in feature-richness. I don't doubt that the new photos app will do most of what most want. But it won't do all of what it used to do. The real question is if what's lost was flotsam that could be simplified, or real features that were used by real users. Apple's been mis-guessing this metric lately. Pages can't even do facing pages anymore, and that's just stupid. Books might be on the way out, but they're far from dead. Same with photography. DSLRs might be on the way out, but no way is any phone camera going to replace one today. It seems like the new photos app is aimed squarely at the iPhone's camera though. They're tossing the baby out with the bath water on this one.

Watch the presentation of Photos and see how there were sliders to change certain "high level" adjustments that then automatically changed the "lower level" adjustments. That makes this kind of adjustment more accessible to non-pros, and they can learn how it actually works, while the pros can still tweak the sliders for the lower level adjustments, just as they have done before. Some pros might feel that this is a dumbing down, but to me that claim is just elitism of a group that would prefer to have elite knowledge and skills that others can't replicate too easily.

You complain that Apple is leaving a group behind and even call it a dangerous precedent. Yet you completely neglect to mention that a much much larger group is benefitting from this. An astonishing level of egoism in my eyes.

Disagree. There's truly nothing wrong with making 'pro' features available to everyone, and making the software smart enough to guess what people might want. That will never negate what pros do in a digital darkroom. In my experience, the hobbyist will reach a point where a photo is "good enough for them" and that's great. Pros will take that a step farther, and I don't think that's about to change. The thing Apple's done though is stopped the train at "good enough" and not left the option for better. I haven't ever been threatened by anyone getting better shots. The only ego I have in this is that people who *do* care about getting the very best out of their art form are having their tools taken away.

Sure, Apple could just improve iPhoto with new features and leave Aperture alive, but then they'd have two applications with 98% overlapping features.

Honestly what I was expecting was for iPhoto and Aperture to merge leaving a complete powerhouse where the pro features could be automated and available to all, and there'd be no limit on where you could take it. What happened was iPhoto was improved and moved to the could and Aperture was axed.

Who said that it will be entirely cloud based?

What I meant by that is that Apple wants the photos app to be used with iPhone to upload all photos to the cloud. I don't know how arduous a process this would be for those of us who may want to get our DSLR photos there, although even if it were dead easy, I still wouldn't want to do it. I shudder to think what a (dare I say it) hellstew it could be to manage a pro photo libray of raw camera files in the cloud. But even if I didn't, and the OSX client could handle local photo libraries, the capabilities would be built on the idea that cloud storage is where it's at, and that sorta sucks. There's an article on 9to5 Mac that said it well: "most will end up frustrated with the company’s insistence on a unified experience across platforms where everything needs to conform to the capabilities of the lowest common denominator."

I'm not eletist, I don't want to hold back anything from anyone. It's Apple who has chosen to hold back from everyone. Or so it seems. Again, I hold out hope that they blow me away. I'm just not expecting it.
 
My only issues are with the apparent elimination of the viewing by places and faces. As being able to tag those as well as add keywords, titles etc.

Otherwise I don't care if they are called events, moments or just dates. I've spent a lot of time organizing my photos, face tagging (with 17 siblings, 27 nieces and nephews and like 60 cousins it's important), etc I don't want to lose that. If this is basically just iPhoto's organization with Apertures editing power etc then okay
Granted, there's a lot of uncertainty here. They mentioned in the keynote that you can search your photos by location, so "Places" can't be lost completely. Anything else is currently still in doubt.
 
Maybe this is the writing on the wall. Apple throws professionals under the truck. The type of person Apple are targeting are enthusiasts who are not advanced enough to be a paid-Pro, but the sort of person who likes photography but has a different day job. That tells you where the app is headed, i.e. not a replacement for Aperture.

I think this is the democratisation of iPhoto, Aperture and Photos. Creating one App that is as powerful as you need it to be, a great strategy if you ask me. Hard to use tools are becoming a thing of the past...

Let's wait until it's released before passing judgement.

On a side note, I really hope Apple are working on the same thing for iTunes. I've been thinking about this a lot lately and now Photos in Yosemite removes the only remaining reason to connect your iOS device to a computer (Syncing your iPhoto/Aperture photos). They could mirror the iOS Apps on OS X - Music, Videos, Podcasts instead of iTunes... even the name doesn't make sense anymore.
 
Why not search for a few photography professionals to test the app and provide feedback as well. No offense to the enthusiasts that may work at Apple retail stores.

There's nothing to think that they might not already be doing -- or planning to do -- the same. Those folks would just probably be barred by an NDA to comment.
 
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