Apple Silicon M1 Chip in MacBook Air Outperforms High-End 16-Inch MacBook Pro

[cmaier]

Uhm. I’m really sorry to say but you’re just wrong here.

Integrated memory is absolutely built onto the same wafer as the rest of the SoC. Multiple copies of the SoC are printed onto the wafer which is then cut into a single die for each chip.

There is often confusion about the use of the term die when discussing system on a chip design. As traditionally each die had a specialized purpose where as now the same die houses components serving multiple discrete purposes but more tightly integrated (removing the waste of copper interconnects/silicon wafers etc that a longer traversal to a separate SoC would require.

Testing these complex arrays of components requires more of a hybrid / real life simulation to suss out the most insidious of errors that can occur with poor yield quality.

No, you are wrong. In all of Apple’s A-series processors, and in the die photo that has been circulating of the M1, there is no RAM on the SoC die. The RAM is on separate die, in the same SoC package. There are multiple reasons for this:

1) so you don’t have to make a separate chip for each RAM configuration
2) the reticle size is too small to allow the RAM to be on the same reticle as the SoC
3) DRAM processes are very very different that CMOS logic processes. They are optimized completely differently.
4) It is a very bad idea to put dynamic circuits of such size on the same die as logic circuitry, as they would then interact via substrate currents, etc.

The SoC does contain multiple discrete parts, but those parts are the GPU, CPU, caches, I/Os, LPDDR channels, neural engine, etc. Not the RAM.

Here’s the die photo:

https://images.anandtech.com/doci/16226/M1.png

You can literally see there is no RAM, and instead there are LPDDR channels, which communicate OFF CHIP to the RAM.

 

[cmaier]

you keep bringing logic and facts to emotional reactions. How are they supposed to hate properly if we keep proving them wrong?

He just told me *I* am wrong. It’s always fun when a CPU designer gets mansplained by some random person on a forum about how this stuff works

 

[gnasher729]

Indeed!

But imagine a higher TDP allowance, coupled or not with more cores ? Just bring in an M1X with 12 CPU cores (8 hi perf) and 16 GPU cores !

I think it will be the M2 with 8+4 cores (should beat every Mac except 18+ core 2020 MacPro). M3 with 12+4 cores.

 

[BigSplash]

Is "throttling" (clock management) actually used in AS or is thermal management left to core scheduling (selection of performance cores vs efficiency cores)?

 

[Alan Wynn]

So who are going to be the new Mac customers other than those who would buy whatever Mac is available anyhow?

People coming from iPads that can now run those apps (for native-is experiences they could not get before) and people looking for better battery/performance.

 

[cmaier]

I think it will be the M2 with 8+4 cores (should beat every Mac except 18+ core 2020 MacPro). M3 with 12+4 cores.

Would be really interesting to profile to figure out what the right combo is. Seems like more low-power cores may get you more bang for the buck by off-loading stuff from the high power cores that don't need to be there. So maybe 6+6 and 8+8.

 

[gnasher729]

There are only 24 hours in a day... How much more battery life does one need?

Some people have to work in the night as well.

 

[AgeOfSpiracles]

I think it will be the M2 with 8+4 cores (should beat every Mac except 18+ core 2020 MacPro). M3 with 12+4 cores.

I don't think so. More sense to add an X or Z or S to "M1", and then next year put out the next gen M2. That's how the A, W, and S series chips were named, more or less.

 

[simidene]

Anyone out there have any opinion on whether the MBP 13 " fan is going to make a big difference in performance vs the Fanless MBA?

 

[gnasher729]

This is going to be what ends up being a big disappointment. Compared to iGPU performance, sure, it's amazing, compared to Nvidia RTX 3000 series or AMD Big Navi? Yeah, no.

I just looked up: Nvidia RTX 3070 = £469, 3090 = £1,399. Yes, people will be disappointed What would be the battery life of a MBA with an RTX 3070? People will be even more disappointed.

 

[simidene]

If the "Pro" in MBP is only better speaker, Touch Bar, and a little brighter screen? well????

 

[ScreenSavers]

If the "Pro" in MBP is only better speaker, Touch Bar, and a little brighter screen? well????

Don’t overlook active cooling

 

[simidene]

Don’t overlook active cooling

I don't know much about that can you elaborate please?

 

[simidene]

Don’t overlook active cooling

Do you expect the MBP to perform better with longer more intensive tasks?

 

[ScreenSavers]

Do you expect the MBP to perform better with longer more intensive tasks?

Yes I’m sure it will. Look at the 12 inch MacBook from the past versus the MacBook Air of the time.

 

[simidene]

Yes I’m sure it will. Look at the 12 inch MacBook from the past versus the MacBook Air of the time.

the 12inch was very lite, sleek, but you could never do anything intensive on it? So, what are the two types of users for the MBA and MBP?

 

[Piggie]

I saw a geekbench showing the macbook pro with a higher score than the mac mini.
Why would that be?
Given the mini is running of mains power, and has more space for cooling.
The mini should be the very fastest of all 3 at this moment in time shouldn't it?

 

[JohnnyGo]

the 12inch was very lite, sleek, but you could never do anything intensive on it? So, what are the two types of users for the MBA and MBP?

The average user and light/casual user will tend to opt for the MBA.

The user with more disposable income, needs/works with video editing, have long sustained workloads other than video, power users that want to jump into the new architecture (and will later upgrade to more powerful machines) will mostly opt for the MBP.

 

[JohnnyGo]

I saw a geekbench showing the macbook pro with a higher score than the mac mini.
Why would that be?
Given the mini is running of mains power, and has more space for cooling.
The mini should be the very fastest of all 3 at this moment in time shouldn't it?

Mac Mini may be using binned parts i.e. SOC that did not meet the best performance criteria and is being clocked at slight lower frequency

 

[polaris20]

No I didn't, just keep seeing M2, D1, Monkey-doo for these chips. I get it it's speculation, but we have M1s now... confirmed. These are 10V versions of the A14 designs. All great and how they go from here is just guessing.

Gotcha. Yeah, read the whole post for the user you're quoting. It'll make more sense.

 

[Piggie]

Mac Mini may be using binned parts i.e. SOC that did not meet the best performance criteria and is being clocked at slight lower frequency

I thought that was the case for the Air and not the Mini ?
Given the mini is a desktop machine, dare I say more meant for serious work when sitting at a desk on a big screen, I'm surprised they would consider doing that.

I guess we'll have to wait for more numbers/tests to come out before we really know for sure.

 

[Alan Wynn]

Would be really interesting to profile to figure out what the right combo is. Seems like more low-power cores may get you more bang for the buck by off-loading stuff from the high power cores that don't need to be there. So maybe 6+6 and 8+8.

I would expect some asymmetry would make sense, just not sure which direction (12+8, 12+6, 6+12, 8+12) depending on what their analysis of real workloads is.

 

[theorist9]

....In all of Apple’s A-series processors, and in the die photo that has been circulating of the M1, there is no RAM on the SoC die. The RAM is on separate die, in the same SoC package. There are multiple reasons for this:

1) so you don’t have to make a separate chip for each RAM configuration....

Interesting! That explains why they can offer both the 8 GB and 16 GB RAM options without needing two chips.

But does this also mean that Apple could have, had they wished, offered the AS Mini with 32 GB and 64 GB RAM options (as they now do for the Intel Mini) without having to make a different chip? Or would those larger RAM options require more LPDDR channels (and thus a different chip)?

 

[simidene]

The average user and light/casual user will tend to opt for the MBA.

The user with more disposable income, needs/works with video editing, have long sustained workloads other than video, power users that want to jump into the new architecture (and will later upgrade to more powerful machines) will mostly opt for the MB

The average user and light/casual user will tend to opt for the MBA.

The user with more disposable income, needs/works with video editing, have long sustained workloads other than video, power users that want to jump into the new architecture (and will later upgrade to more powerful machines) will mostly opt for the MBP

Would you say that the MacBook Air(fanless) is a souped up iPad Pro (fanless). The iPad Pro you have to admit is a beast for what it can do while staying cool...intensive games, some editing etc??

 

[theotherphil]

Yeah, when it comes to gaming, Apple silicon is actually a step back.

That's okay for Apple, they're way more interested in renting fun, quirky, ultra casual games with the Arcade to you.

All the "hardcore" games, for lack of a better word, are on x86 (PC, XBox and PS5), and with a new console release just around the corner, that will be the case for a LONG time.

How is this a step back with Apple Silicon? The GPU‘s in these announced devices are way quicker than what was in the prior model.

Have a look at Apple’s State of the Union video and some of their Apple Silicon developer videos....they specifically stated that what they are most excited about are their custom GPU’s “which are going to be great for pro applications and games”.

I doubt very much that the higher end SOC’s are going to have just an 8 core GPU.