Apple Spent More Than $10 Billion on Apple Car Before Canceling Project

Okay we can’t prove either assertion.

Turns out we can:

Tesla is having a hard time producing the pickup truck and it’s going to lose money on every truck it sells until it can boost production figures. “So, I just want to temper expectations for Cybertruck,” Wards Auto reports Musk said during the quarterly call. “It’s a great product, but financially it will take, I don’t know, a year to 18 months before it is a significant positive cash-flow contributor.”

Tesla has a sizable lead in ev manufacturing and importantly battery supply chain, no matter how it is sliced. Tesla already went through putting its supply chain in effect while legacy automakers are failing behind. Witness the chevy blazer ev.

Yes, lost. In q4 2023 Tesla is making a profit. Like I said we are today looking forward not today looking back.

You can't start the clock today in making the argument you're trying to make. Tesla has a lead in EV marketshare because they lost billions of dollars for decades. The word you use when you spend money in preparation of making more money is "investment". Tesla has made that investment already. GM and others are starting to.

Tesla lost money before they made money. Others will need to lose money before they make money. That's how R&D and production start works-- pointing to new entrants losing money isn't saying anything more than what stage of development they're in.

That’s what Tesla did last year and enabled me to acquire a long range model 3 with 19 nice wheels for $38K after rebates and taxes.

I know this was a typo, but it did give me a moment to ponder a 19 wheeled Tesla... 😄
 
I may not like Musk for many reasons, but he is hardly gimmicks. Dude slept in the factory and assembly lines/literally lived there till they got it right and became profitable.

Makes a great piece of lore, right? Did it make a difference? Self immolation gets attention, but it does less to affect real events. In this case it's fed his cult of personality, but I'm not sure it helped build cars. I've yet to hear anything productive Musk has done other than continually berate people. If he was living on the factory floor so he can stopwatch people's bathroom breaks, that doesn't make him a hero in my eyes.
 
What is the scale? Scale is important. Ford and GM are losing billions on their EV effort. Tesla posted a profit 2023. Now granted Tesla is more than EVs. It's the supercharger network, which will bring in billions for non-Teslas and solar energy and powerwall. But the point is that Tesla knows it can make a profit on cybertruck, while it is working on ramping up and smoothing out production. In addition, the article is from oct 2023 and a few months makes a difference. While everyone has an opinion of Musk, Tesla vehicles are selling. Obviously volume is dependent on price and Telsa having complete control of the price causes funny things to happen, like a S plaid selling for just under $90K, down from $130K. But we will see how the cybertruck sells in the next year or so. Sales is the equalizer.
You can't start the clock today in making the argument you're trying to make. Tesla has a lead in EV marketshare because they lost billions of dollars for decades. The word you use when you spend money in preparation of making more money is "investment". Tesla has made that investment already. GM and others are starting to.
The fact they lost billions yesteryear is irrelevant. Today in 2024 Tesla has a sizeable lead in the EV marketplace. The #1 best selling car in the world is the model y. At a time when attention is really being drawn toward alternative transportation. Most legacy automakers are trying to make EVs with an ICE business model, imo. Tesla has a sizeable lead and their gigapresses investments and battery supply chain have already paid off. GM with their sizeable expertise in cars, produced a bomb with the Chevy Blazer EV.
Tesla lost money before they made money. Others will need to lose money before they make money. That's how R&D and production start works-- pointing to new entrants losing money isn't saying anything more than what stage of development they're in.
As I said, the legacy automakers seem to be using an ICE model to build EVs, Tesla started as an EV company from the ground up. It's going to be years before they turn a profit on EVs. The only company that seems to have hope is Volvo, with their affordable EV solution that doesn't have as much range as the model 3/Y.
I know this was a typo, but it did give me a moment to ponder a 19 wheeled Tesla... 😄
LOL, I meant the 19 inch wheel as as $$$ upgrade. Tesla because it doesn't have a dealer network can change prices to meet supply, demand, interest rate and tax incentives. While not having a dealer network has both positives and negatives, the fact that I bought my Tesla online without dealer intervention lowered my blood pressure considerably.
 
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Makes a great piece of lore, right? Did it make a difference? Self immolation gets attention, but it does less to affect real events. In this case it's fed his cult of personality, but I'm not sure it helped build cars. I've yet to hear anything productive Musk has done other than continually berate people. If he was living on the factory floor so he can stopwatch people's bathroom breaks, that doesn't make him a hero in my eyes.

Musk’s record at Tesla is no secret. He was hands off for years, only providing funding. Since he’s been directly involved with development and strategy it appears the company is less well off than before. He appears to have replaced key members with sycophants and attempted to use the company as an ATM to build a giant glass mansion amongst other egregious abuses and questionable strategic moves. The Cyber Truck is an obvious piece of garbage. Musk isn’t the wizard his followers sell him as.
 
What is the scale?

I believe you set the scale at "every vehicle":
To be fair, while GM is hand building the Escalade, Tesla is hand building the cybertruck...
Sure, but Tesla is making money on every vehicle sold
(they aren't)

In addition, the article is from oct 2023 and a few months makes a difference
A few months don't make much difference when Tesla said they'll be losing money for 12-18.

The fact they lost billions yesteryear is irrelevant. Today in 2024 Tesla has a sizeable lead in the EV marketplace.
I'm going to say this one more time: Tesla has a sizeable lead because they lost billions yesteryear. That's called investment. So comparing another company's investment phase to Tesla's post investment phase is disingenuous.

Ford and GM are losing billions on their EV effort. Tesla posted a profit 2023. [...] But the point is that Tesla knows it can make a profit on cybertruck, while it is working on ramping up and smoothing out production.

Ford and GM posted larger profits in 2023 than Tesla and were able to do so while also dealing with production issues on their new EV lines.

2023 gross profit:
Ford$25.64B
GM$19.14B
Tesla$17.66B

And Tesla's profits are falling at a more than 15% rate year over year.

Nobody knows Tesla can make a profit on something they aren't making a profit on-- they just hope they can. If they knew they could, they'd be doing it already.
 
I believe you set the scale at "every vehicle":

(they aren't)
We don’t know about the cyber truck in mar of 2024. There have been price adjustments and unless Elon has said very recently they aren’t making money on the cyber truck, it’s indeterminate as to the outcome.
A few months don't make much difference when Tesla said they'll be losing money for 12-18.
But as I said, there have been price adjustments and right now we don’t really know the outcome.
I'm going to say this one more time: Tesla has a sizeable lead because they lost billions yesteryear. That's called investment. So comparing another company's investment phase to Tesla's post investment phase is disingenuous.
Apple also lost money in the past, but so what. It’s where they are today relative to the markets they are in. Same with Tesla. You can call that argument disingenuous if you want.
Ford and GM posted larger profits in 2023 than Tesla and were able to do so while also dealing with production issues on their new EV lines.

2023 gross profit:
Ford$25.64B
GM$19.14B
Tesla$17.66B

And Tesla's profits are falling at a more than 15% rate year over year.

Nobody knows Tesla can make a profit on something they aren't making a profit on-- they just hope they can. If they knew they could, they'd be doing it already.
Did you purposefully ignore my statement on EVs? I’m not discussing Corporate net profit.

 
We don’t know about the cyber truck in mar of 2024. There have been price adjustments and unless Elon has said very recently they aren’t making money on the cyber truck, it’s indeterminate as to the outcome.

But as I said, there have been price adjustments and right now we don’t really know the outcome.

The problem with the Cyber Truck is that it’s the Cyber Truck. It’s heavy, under powered, prone to rust and a dozen other major issues. They could give them away and still not make a dent in the established truck markets.

Apple also lost money in the past, but so what. It’s where they are today relative to the markets they are in. Same with Tesla. You can call that argument disingenuous if you want.

Apple has an estimated 73 BILLION dollars of CASH IN HAND. Apple burning mountains of money on various projects is nothing remotely similar to Tesla losing mountains of money they don’t have to lose.

Same deal with Ford. Ford is the single largest manufacturer of vehicles in the world. They can afford to sink money into the segment.
 
The problem with the Cyber Truck is that it’s the Cyber Truck. It’s heavy, under powered, prone to rust and a dozen other major issues. They could give them away and still not make a dent in the established truck markets.
Your opinion of the cybertruck wont affect the sales. Future sales and profits of the cybertruck will depend on the buying public. You’d have to ask Elon if their business plan is to make a dent in the established truck market.
Apple has an estimated 73 BILLION dollars of CASH IN HAND. Apple burning mountains of money on various projects is nothing remotely similar to Tesla losing mountains of money they don’t have to lose.

Same deal with Ford. Ford is the single largest manufacturer of vehicles in the world. They can afford to sink money into the segment.
Ford may be able to afford it, but they scaled back their EV production. I guess it’s okay since Ford has a war chest of reserves to lose billions on manufacture and sale of BEVs.
 
Your opinion of the cybertruck wont affect the sales. Future sales and profits of the cybertruck will depend on the buying public. You’d have to ask Elon if their business plan is to make a dent in the established truck market.

It’s a crap product. You can quote me.

Ford may be able to afford it, but they scaled back their EV production. I guess it’s okay since Ford has a war chest of reserves to lose billions on manufacture and sale of BEVs.
Temporarily. Try reading the whole article, not just the headline.
 
Is that true? Thought it was Toyota...

Oops. We were both wrong. It’s VW:


Toyota is number two and Ford is number five.

But the point stands. These gigantic, global companies can afford to sink lots and lots of money into the EV market. Tesla can’t.
 
It’s a crap product. You can quote me.
Your opinion is irrelevant.
Temporarily. Try reading the whole article, not just the headline.
No matter how you slice it their business is losing money and both ford and Gm cut back on their plans. CEO of Gm has been quoted saying they will outsell Tesla in evs in 2023 or 2024. They willl have to sell a hella lot of evs to make that happen.
 
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Oops. We were both wrong. It’s VW:


Toyota is number two and Ford is number five.

But the point stands. These gigantic, global companies can afford to sink lots and lots of money into the EV market. Tesla can’t.
Tesla already has a viable EV business that offers a unique end to end experience for the customer. The model y is the best selling car on the planet, selling more than other vehicles costing less. While the legacy automakers ramp up, Tesla has a sizable lead and is poised to release their model 2 (or whatever the mass market ev will be called)

Gm can sink more money into Evs than Tesla but the Chevy blazer ev proves money can’t manufacture a good car - and that vehicle is expensive at $60 grand.
 
The way Rvian and Lucid are losing Millions/Billions in a quarter, Apple was smart to pull the plug. Rivian is losing few tens of thousands of dollars on every sale. EV market is Tesla, pretty much all others are pulling back and losing money.
And the way Chinese EV car manufacturers are dumping their cars everywhere they could there is no market outside of America and Europe either.

And who can say EV is the future of car. There're still a lot of uncertainty as long as it's still needed a lot of time to charge battery.
 
Your opinion is irrelevant.

It’s no more or less relevant than yours, actually. But I have a list of problems with the Cybertruck as long as my arm backing mine up. What you have appears to be “but other car makers scaled back some!”

No matter how you slice it their business is losing money and both ford and Gm cut back on their plans. CEO of Gm has been quoted saying they will outsell Tesla in evs in 2023 or 2024. They willl have to sell a hella lot of evs to make that happen.
They will. And Cybertruck will fail. It’s already a flop and it’s going to drag the whole company down with it. You think the lunatic who destroyed Twitter is competent to save a struggling EV company. I don’t.
 
Tesla already has a viable EV business that offers a unique end to end experience for the customer. The model y is the best selling car on the planet, selling more than other vehicles costing less. While the legacy automakers ramp up, Tesla has a sizable lead and is poised to release their model 2 (or whatever the mass market ev will be called)

Gm can sink more money into Evs than Tesla but the Chevy blazer ev proves money can’t manufacture a good car - and that vehicle is expensive at $60 grand.

So what? Most people will continue to buy ICE and hybrid trucks over full EVs in the short term. What they aren’t going to do is switch to the idiotic Cybertruck. They’ll wait a little longer for the big makers to figure it out. Because those companies know how to make excellent trucks. Tesla does not.
 
No matter how you slice it their business is losing money

Ford is not losing money. They are more profitable than Tesla. You are trying very hard to tell a very narrow story in which Tesla is special-- but you're losing credibility by distorting the reality of the situation.

You realize cybertruck was scaled back substantially too, right? It was supposed to start shipping in 2021... All the time that Tesla was working on it but not shipping it, they were losing money on it.
 
Tesla is apple.

It will be interesting to see how long they can use the "only approved repair centers or the warranty may be void" stance as regulators take notice, much like Apple.

They already have the best selling car in the world. While GM is hand building a $350K electric Cadillac Escalade, Tesla is focusing on the affordable model 2.

Except BYD sold more EVs than Tesla in 2023. It will be interesting to see if they can pull of the Model 2 and when it finally comes out.

Rivian and lucid are both bleeding money.

So did Tesla for about 10 years; and Tesla's gross and operating margins have declined. I think we've seen peak Tesla, and while they my stick around long term they are going to face major challenges as competition increases.

These majors have to be in the $25k range and drive like something worthwhile. A $60,000 be isn’t the idea of mass affordability.

Tesla isn't exactly in that range either.

And they are not for mass consumption. Sure you want to spend north of $70K on an ev go for it. But tax credits are great as well.

For me, Tesla's are to bland, and the truck too weird. The Mustang, Lightening and BMWs are more to my taste.

live in the state that is third in ev adoption. Everyone I know that has an ev also has l2. One has to know how to plan for a trip in an ev, similar to a gas vehicle.

With a gas vehicle you don't need to plan fuel stops and can be in and out quickly. Not so with an EV, and tehre is no assurance the chargers will be viable and working, and you can't just go across the street to another. Nor do you have to worry about how you will charge at your destination. The infrastructure issues are holding them back.


I know people say it, but that doesn’t mean the masses believe it.

Given the adoption rates and companies slowing plans seems to point to many people not wanting an EV, and charging concerns, as well as price are major reasons. As the rebates go away there will be large real price increases even if the sticker price is the same. Friends that have the also complain the insurance is significantly higher.

PHEVs are the worst of ice and bevs combined.

Depends on the use case. For local commutes they offer electrical as for long trips no charging concerns.

I love driving my Tesla model 3 long range. It’s my daily commuter. Costs about $1 a day. And after all credits $38K. My spouses crv was over $36k.

That's great. The thing about the credits is as the go away Tesla is either going to have to cut prices or lose sales. Price cuts are great but that hurts the resale value of used ones, rising the TCO.

From a power industry perspective, as adoption increase it will strain the grid and require new plants; and I suspect you'll see more nighttime peaks and higher prices for electricity.

I think EVs are the future, but there's a lot of things that need to happen before they become mainstream; it's not just build them and they will come.
 
Ford is not losing money. They are more profitable than Tesla. You are trying very hard to tell a very narrow story in which Tesla is special-- but you're losing credibility by distorting the reality of the situation.

You realize cybertruck was scaled back substantially too, right? It was supposed to start shipping in 2021... All the time that Tesla was working on it but not shipping it, they were losing money on it.
Ford (am GM) is losing money on its battery electric vehicle business. The losses were big enough so they decided to retrench.

I don’t claim that Tesla had a smooth sailing to get its cybertruck production to where it is. Obviously it was vaporware for years. But at this point in time Tesla is making a profit.
 
So what? Most people will continue to buy ICE and hybrid trucks over full EVs in the short term. What they aren’t going to do is switch to the idiotic Cybertruck. They’ll wait a little longer for the big makers to figure it out. Because those companies know how to make excellent trucks. Tesla does not.
So what that “most people” will buy ICE and hybrid in the short term, that is neither here not there? What is relevant however, is how Tesla does in the next few years. I don’t have a crystal ball but the cybertruck could be the sleeper you believe won’t happen.
 
It's still very capital intensive manufacturing...

Which is the growth challenge as it requires a ot of upfront investment.

That’s what Tesla did last year and enabled me to acquire a long range model 3 with 19 nice wheels for $38K after rebates and taxes. So yeah they’ll slash margins. At least they won’t lose their figurative shirts.

If you look at Tesla's profit of around 8.3K$ and rebates of 7.5k$; when rebates go away Tesla will either slash prices, killing margins and profitability, or lose sales due to higher actual prices.

The assumptions the other side is making are all related to "what can Apple recoup from this investment" but they keep forgetting that this project revolved around an entirely new field that Apple has never been in before. There is not much they can get out of it if they didn't follow through to make it a success.

No one knows here on MR what tech Apple developed and how they will use it, but I suspect a good bit will trickle into other non-automotive products.

And that's also why they gave up. They saw no value at all in the endeavor, and continuing on would have just made it even more of a money sink for them.

Which is the smart move.

Ford may be able to afford it, but they scaled back their EV production.

Temporarily in the face of slacking demand. They can always ramp it up once the see demand grow; and have ICE to keep them in business.

But at this point in time Tesla is making a profit.

True, but a good bit of that is from rebates and carbon credits; as they go away Tesla will need to seriously reduce costs to maintain margins. Tesla may be a better battery / charging station company play in the end.

I don’t have a crystal ball but the cybertruck could be the sleeper you believe won’t happen.

I don't either but see it more as a "Look at me vehicle," much like the early Tesla adopters. Truck buyers are a different breed and given most truck sales are in the US, Tesla may find it hard to win them over.
 
It’s no more or less relevant than yours, actually. But I have a list of problems with the Cybertruck as long as my arm backing mine up. What you have appears to be “but other car makers scaled back some!”
The first TM3s had a list of problems as well. And now it’s a best seller. I can provide a list of luxury automakers with models that have had issues. So what? And yes what I have about the legacy automakers (possibly except for Volvo) scaling back, because it is big news. (Even if you don’t think it is)
They will. And Cybertruck will fail. It’s already a flop and it’s going to drag the whole company down with it. You think the lunatic who destroyed Twitter is competent to save a struggling EV company. I don’t.
Whether people believe “X’ is “dragged down” or not is up for debate, there is no metric. Now that it is a private company.

I think that “lunatic” knows what he is doing.
 
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It will be interesting to see how long they can use the "only approved repair centers or the warranty may be void" stance as regulators take notice, much like Apple.



Except BYD sold more EVs than Tesla in 2023. It will be interesting to see if they can pull of the Model 2 and when it finally comes out.
BYD isn’t doing that great either and they don’t sell in the US at this point. The Chinese electric car market is in a bit of trouble as I understand it.
So did Tesla for about 10 years; and Tesla's gross and operating margins have declined. I think we've seen peak Tesla, and while they my stick around long term they are going to face major challenges as competition increases.
Of course, we’ll have to see where this all goes.
Tesla isn't exactly in that range either.
They are working on a model 2 (rumored)
For me, Tesla's are to bland, and the truck too weird. The Mustang, Lightening and BMWs are more to my taste.
I like the bland of my model 3. The mech-e isn’t my taste at all and while the German automakers produce a nice car, I don’t think they are worth the price. Tesla has the best overall execution of an electric vehicle, imo.
With a gas vehicle you don't need to plan fuel stops and can be in and out quickly. Not so with an EV, and tehre is no assurance the chargers will be viable and working, and you can't just go across the street to another. Nor do you have to worry about how you will charge at your destination. The infrastructure issues are holding them back.
Of course, this is the ev haters mantra.
Given the adoption rates and companies slowing plans seems to point to many people not wanting an EV, and charging concerns, as well as price are major reasons. As the rebates go away there will be large real price increases even if the sticker price is the same. Friends that have the also complain the insurance is significantly higher.
There has been focus literally on very granular adoption rates. The overall trend is headed in the right direction as far as I can tell. It’s true insurance on an electric vehicle is higher than, let’s say a civic, but less than an s63 amg Mercedes. And repair costs are higher as well compared to a less expensive vehicle but in line with more expensive vehicles.
Depends on the use case. For local commutes they offer electrical as for long trips no charging concerns.
My opinion are PHEVs are the worst of the two technologies.
That's great. The thing about the credits is as the go away Tesla is either going to have to cut prices or lose sales. Price cuts are great but that hurts the resale value of used ones, rising the TCO.
Again, we will see.
From a power industry perspective, as adoption increase it will strain the grid and require new plants; and I suspect you'll see more nighttime peaks and higher prices for electricity.
The grid needs an update. But I suppose it’s better to keep pumping oil out of the ground. Pollute the air while transporting it. Pollute the air and ground while refining it. Pollute the air while pumping it and pollute the air while driving.
I think EVs are the future, but there's a lot of things that need to happen before they become mainstream; it's not just build them and they will come.
Where I live in the great garden state, it’s the third most populous state for EVs. You can’t throw a stick without hitting a Tesla.
 
[…]

Temporarily in the face of slacking demand. They can always ramp it up once the see demand grow; and have ICE to keep them in business.
[…]
You think they can start and stop an bev supply chain like turning a light bulb on and off. From what I’m reading it takes years to ramp up production. So when the automakers are ready to start ramping up it could still be years.
True, but a good bit of that is from rebates and carbon credits; as they go away Tesla will need to seriously reduce costs to maintain margins. Tesla may be a better battery / charging station company play in the end.



I don't either but see it more as a "Look at me vehicle," much like the early Tesla adopters. Truck buyers are a different breed and given most truck sales are in the US, Tesla may find it hard to win them over.
Obviously none of us has a crystal ball, but I understand people want Tesla to fail, just like people want apple to fail. Don’t think either will happen,
 
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