Conversely, what's to prevent Apple from adding NFC to *all* its devices? The iPad with Square dongle is a very popular combination with small retailers - once the next iPad Air has NFC, I'm sure it will be able to act as a payment receiver. Heck, there is nothing preventing Apple from enhancing existing iPads and iPhones to make payments to each other via Bluetooth LE.
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Apple, Square Acquisition Talks Went South Over $3B Offer [Update: Nope]
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Conversely, what's to prevent Apple from adding NFC to *all* its devices? The iPad with Square dongle is a very popular combination with small retailers - once the next iPad Air has NFC, I'm sure it will be able to act as a payment receiver. Heck, there is nothing preventing Apple from enhancing existing iPads and iPhones to make payments to each other via Bluetooth LE.
Except a year from now no one will accept credit cards, because it's a liability. A security that depends on a 16-digit number that never changes and you give it away everywhere is simply stupid.
It'll be interesting to see how the credit card companies adapt to Apple pay. I've heard the NFC token-based authentication used by Apple pay is much more secure than the chip method. If so, the credit card companies are likely to push for Apple pay, as that'll help decrease fraud (and thereby increase credit card companies' profits).
HobeSoundDarryl
macrumors G5
A year from now??? A year from now only a fraction of the world's population that use credit cards will have an iPhone 6 that is required to pay with Apple Pay.
I agree that this is a much better system- even the future of CC payments (NFC, not just Apple Pay)- but if Apple Pay has replaced credit cards everywhere in one year, Apple will be ruling the world in one year.
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Or refuse and have the company you built valued at $6B just a few months later.
I don't think Apple wants to become a payment processor, ever.
I see Apple as forever remaining the middleman, skimming a tiny amount of the money. Right now, apple is simply handling payments between a user and a store/restaurant/vendor/etc.. However, future versions of iOS will likely expand this to include payments between users, between a user's bank and other places, etc., etc..
(I think apple would have to handle user-to-user payments as a transfer between user A's bank account and user B's bank account. I don't think apple wants to become a financial institution, along with all of the legal and regulatory issues that goes with that.)
I can't imagine that Square will be able to maintain its $6 billion valuation after a successful launch of Apple Pay.
Square's advantage today is that anyone can buy a card reader and accept payments. But in the near future, Apple will have sold tens of millions of NFC-enabled iPhones, iPads and Watches with TouchID biometric security built-in.
Apple will then inevitably update iOS so that we can make secure, person-to-person payments just by bumping our phones together - with no additional hardware or apps required.
Won't that negate most of the reason Square exists?
Square's advantage today is that anyone can buy a card reader and accept payments. But in the near future, Apple will have sold tens of millions of NFC-enabled iPhones, iPads and Watches with TouchID biometric security built-in.
Apple will then inevitably update iOS so that we can make secure, person-to-person payments just by bumping our phones together - with no additional hardware or apps required.
Won't that negate most of the reason Square exists?
It's very simple. Square was greedy, they will pay within a year for being greedy. 2 years from now, mark my word, they will be out of business.
Deal.
Deal.
The only way, in the immediate future, thatPay disrupts Square is by giving merchants a reason to consider alternatives to Square.
...I also don't see Apple *giving* away those little card swipe readers either.
Two possible problems with Apple Pay disrupting Square is that (a) Square sends you the little scanner, and all your customers already have credit cards so that works very well; and (b) Apple's method puts the onus on the merchant and the customer, which means they'll have to have the necessary tech to make it work - Apple with Pay and Merchants with the little reader thing - and to be truly successful long term it will have to work equally well with Android and Windows NFC phones.
- oops
There is probably discussion about it internally. If there are billions to be had, and the FTC won't block them, that makes it tough not to get greedy.
Agreed w/ the p2p payments though. Outside of Square, a lot of payments startups must be ******** bricks right now.
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...I also don't see Apple *giving* away those little card swipe readers either.
Not what I intended. Square is just another merchant processing option. What if the merchant talks to an ISO that is making
Pay a selling point. "Not only will your fees be lower than Square, you can accept Pay" - 2 huge reasons to not consider using Square. It is on the processor to figure out how to set the merchant up with his equipment, because as pointed out above, Apple is not going to be the merchant processor.
Unless you are talking about contractors, or people who take payments with the Square reader and not Square Stand. So I asked a question that I didn't think got answered. What happens when a payment service gives you a free reader and integrates its app with Apple's NFC. Because if NFC exists, it must be able to communicate with another phone. So the reader itself doesn't need NFC, just the app. Not all payment services share Square's aggregate model (2.75% transaction fee). Some are traditional merchant accounts that pass through interchange.
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small business or big business, not planning to grow is always a downfall. if Square's business model is sticking with only small business, they will fail.
apple WILL go after the small business and even personal transaction sooner or later. Yes they are not in the business of getting into financial transaction. BUT they are in the business of becoming part of your lifestyle. everything you touch must be apple product. the more you can't live without one, the happier and richer they are.
up until now forgot your phone? can't make calls. no big deal, i still have my debit cards i'll be fine.
in the next few years. no phone? you're SOL. no money, no calls.
Square was too shortsighted to see it that far. plastic will be gone. even your precious mag-stripe. Coins will have that problem soon. That's what happen when you build your business around outdated tech.
apple WILL go after the small business and even personal transaction sooner or later. Yes they are not in the business of getting into financial transaction. BUT they are in the business of becoming part of your lifestyle. everything you touch must be apple product. the more you can't live without one, the happier and richer they are.
up until now forgot your phone? can't make calls. no big deal, i still have my debit cards i'll be fine.
in the next few years. no phone? you're SOL. no money, no calls.
Square was too shortsighted to see it that far. plastic will be gone. even your precious mag-stripe. Coins will have that problem soon. That's what happen when you build your business around outdated tech.
But why would Apple plan to acquire another company for 3 Billion dollars when they had the capability to start a paying system themselves at (likely) much cheaper coast? Makes no sense.
the existing customer base Square already acquired. Particularly the small moms/pops business
HobeSoundDarryl
macrumors G5
Is that like how Dropbox was greedy when Apple wanted to buy them? http://www.electronista.com/articles/13/11/21/dropbox.chief.says.icloud.was.direct.shot.at.dropbox/ and http://tekbloggers.com/2011/09/12/apple-tried-to-buy-dropbox-for-800m-to-help-icloud/
Apple's answer to putting Dropbox out of business was iCloud. Since, Dropbox has continued to grow and grow. I'm still waiting for much Dropbox-like functionality with iCloud.
It seems that Apple Pay can use either NFC or Bluetooth to complete payments. So it would seem that iPhone 6 to iPhone 6 payments should be quite possible with very limited development. No?
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HobeSoundDarryl
macrumors G5
See Beats acquisition.
Then see Beats acquisition threads where it was rationalized that 1 or 2 guys were worth $3B or the subscription business was worth $3B, etc.
I agree, Square has made a good business in helping small business. I think they can remain the same over time. However I doubt the current customer base would have been abandoned and would have likely benefitted from the acquisition.
I think Square was foolish for not taking the 3 billion. That is far from a low ball price and far from an insult.
HobeSoundDarryl
macrumors G5
Square can help a business accept payments from anyone with a credit card.
iPhone 6 to iPhone 6 transactions would be limited to a tiny fraction of that many people even after Apple sells 100-200M units. It's like rationalizing why Skype is obsolete because we can just use FaceTime instead.
There's a HUGE world beyond everyone that owns Apple iPhones- a much, much greater population of people who have money and buy things every day.
I think Apple is trying to be more nuanced in how they address cloud storage and have it be more seamless than than a mount point. However they implementation has been less than "Just Working" and since people are used to mount points the adaptation has been slow. Apple has failed to give end users a compelling reason to abandon mount points and move to application driven storage.
All of Apple's cloud based systems struggle with giving users compelling reasons to use them when the user already has a similar solution.
Payments on the other hand, have been a big part of iPhone -- Starbucks app is a prime example. I think people who have adopted some of those interfaces will be drawn to Apple Pay. I know I am..
Also like to add that apple is known to be a slow and patience chess player. Every move has bigger long term impact. Only see it once it has been played
Example. TouchID and apple pay and NFC. Which idea came first? Chicken or the egg. They could have jump on the NFC bandwagon long time ago. But they waited for touchID. OR all the chess pieces lined up for apple pay?
Square acquisition would only have been a small move to them
Example. TouchID and apple pay and NFC. Which idea came first? Chicken or the egg. They could have jump on the NFC bandwagon long time ago. But they waited for touchID. OR all the chess pieces lined up for apple pay?
Square acquisition would only have been a small move to them
Maybe. While I don't think the FTC (not FCC) would block them, I'm thinking that Apple doesn't want to deal with the legal regulatory hassles. I think Apple would then be a bank, and would have to deal with all of the FDIC, Federal Reserve, and whatever else regulatory bodies there are.
While I'm sure the apple zealots would love to be a part of the "Bank of Apple", I'm not sure apple really wants to grow in that direction ....
Yeah, that raises some interesting questions: if it's really generic, square should be able to build an Apple pay-compatible NFC terminal (or maybe write software to turn an iPhone into one, assuming apple allows this). If so, then google or samsung can do that, too, with android. What patents does apple have on Apple pay?
HobeSoundDarryl
macrumors G5
Me too. I think Apple Pay is TERRIFIC!!! I just don't see it killing off everyone's credit cards in one year or putting a "greedy" player like Square ("greedy" because they didn't take Apple's $3B offer when they would be worth $6B just a few months later) out of business.
For all this gushing love for Apple Pay and the NFC that underlies it, I encourage anyone to use this site's Search-Advanced Search function, type NFC and choose "search titles" and then hop back a year or two and read threads where "we" were bashing NFC as "useless", "insecure" and on and on even just 2 years ago. Now Apple is rolling it out and it is going to transform the world almost immediately. I like Apple as much as the next guy but wow!!!
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If I was guessing, I'd guess the "secure element" or something similar will lock anyone and everyone not working with Apple out.
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It's coming with iOS 8 (and Yosemite??). This also includes some microsoft windows support. However, the reliability/usability still remains to be seen (outside of developers).
Dropbox's pricing is still better, though.
Of course! I was merely pointing out that Apple doesn't need to rely on an NFC reader in the phone if they want to go the direction of accepting payments too.
I for one hesitate to hand my plain boring mag strip only card to many folks holding what looks like a smartphone enabled skimmer.
square is a last resort for me if I simply don't have enough cash.Support for the lowest common denominator is what stops us from getting a more secure payment system. All you need to know is 23 numbers to complete many transactions. (Number, exp date and verification code).
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