Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.
Putting fun gadget ideas aside here for a moment.
Apple is supposed to be a green company "Save the planet" and all that. Which is great and something we should hope all companies actually do, and not just say.
The most green way is to charge our hundreds of millions of devices in the most efficient, non wasteful method possible to save power station usage.
Unless something dramatic happens and we get a breakthrough new tech, all this wireless charging is very bad.
It seems wireless is around 50% as efficient as a wire connection.

We currently have around 15 Billion mobile devices in the world.
Do we really want to double the amount of power generated to keep these devices running if they were wireless?
You can't beat physics. There is no possible way to make wireless charging as effient as wired charging, end of story. Yes, you can improve the efficiency to some degree with incremental improvements in materials and manufacturing quality, but the real impediment is the physical lack of an iron core in the "transformer". The transformer in your wired charger that brings the mains power 110V/220V/240V (depending on your country) down to the 5V for your devices has a core that is a loop of material (such as iron), and two wire coils, one wire coil connected to the mains power, and one to the 5V out. In a wireless charger, there is no looped core, due to the fact that both wire coils are in two different devices, one in the charger, and one in the phone. The looped core in a normal transformer is made of a material such as iron, that is efficient at channeling the magnetic field that transfers the electric field from one wire coil to the an electric field in the other wire coil. Without this core, the efficiency is dramatically diminished. And even with this core, the efficiency isn't as good as simply a wire carrying the charge. So, in the wireless charger, there is actually two transformers, one bringing mains down to 5V, then the second one that transfers this 5V from the charger to the 5V in the phone. So not only do you have an inefficient transformer that has no joined looped core, but it is an extraneous second transformer, so you have a double inefficiency. In summary, you can't beat physics, and wireless charging will always be inefficient. The only thing it's efficient at, is improving the profit margins at Apple. It most certainly doesn't do anything good for the environment.

Even more insane is the idea of long distance wireless charging. This seems to me to be pure fantasy dreamt up by con artists trying to scam money out of investors.
 
But until wireless charging is actually efficient, it would be a bit wasteful to encourage it as the primary method of charging. Maybe Apple can come up with a better solution that doesn’t waste quite so much energy.
It already exists. Wired charging. No wireless solution can ever beat it for efficiency. Pure physics.
 
long range charging is the worst idea ever. the distance to bridge is proportional to the diameter of the coils used in power transfer, and the losses are massive (at least inverse square law level).
No.. this is obviously the future, the problems will be worked out and this will be standard in 10 years.
 
  • Haha
Reactions: TheSapient
Nikola Tesla begs to differ.
IMO, one of the greatest urban legends.
while not trying to downplay the genius of Nikola Tesla and his achievements with alternating current (and many other things) it is quite doubtful that he actually managed to make it work in an efficient and sustainable way, and literally nothing but a steel skeleton of a weird tower was left, no documentation, no publications, nothing. nothing but a story people tell one to the other.

and yet after more than 100 years and countless of outstanding achievement in every technical fields he ever worked with, today's scientists simply cannot reproduce the 'wireless energy transfer' with all the new tech and research at their fingertips.

to me this story is a bit of a 'steampunk version of the classic fantasy novels', where the secret/sacred knowledge of the ancestors was lost during the eons of darkness.

but i do respect your opinion.
 
No.. this is obviously the future, the problems will be worked out and this will be standard in 10 years.
Is this the future because you want it to be, or do you really think we can bend the laws of physics to make it work? I don’t see how we safely compensate for the necessary massive power densities at the source.

This is a different problem than data transfer. We can detect data at very, very low power levels. We can’t solve power transfer with receiver sensitivity— we need raw power and that raw power will be much higher at the source than at the device.
 
It piques my interest how this Long Range Wireless Charging will work. It will be awesome if Apple can make a groundbreaking innovation again.
 
You can't beat physics. There is no possible way to make wireless charging as effient as wired charging, end of story. Yes, you can improve the efficiency to some degree with incremental improvements in materials and manufacturing quality, but the real impediment is the physical lack of an iron core in the "transformer". The transformer in your wired charger that brings the mains power 110V/220V/240V (depending on your country) down to the 5V for your devices has a core that is a loop of material (such as iron), and two wire coils, one wire coil connected to the mains power, and one to the 5V out. In a wireless charger, there is no looped core, due to the fact that both wire coils are in two different devices, one in the charger, and one in the phone. The looped core in a normal transformer is made of a material such as iron, that is efficient at channeling the magnetic field that transfers the electric field from one wire coil to the an electric field in the other wire coil. Without this core, the efficiency is dramatically diminished. And even with this core, the efficiency isn't as good as simply a wire carrying the charge. So, in the wireless charger, there is actually two transformers, one bringing mains down to 5V, then the second one that transfers this 5V from the charger to the 5V in the phone. So not only do you have an inefficient transformer that has no joined looped core, but it is an extraneous second transformer, so you have a double inefficiency. In summary, you can't beat physics, and wireless charging will always be inefficient. The only thing it's efficient at, is improving the profit margins at Apple. It most certainly doesn't do anything good for the environment.

Even more insane is the idea of long distance wireless charging. This seems to me to be pure fantasy dreamt up by con artists trying to scam money out of investors.
I suspect the bigger problem is just the resistance of the wires. Wired charging sends DC down a fairly stout set of conductors for the meter or so it takes to get to the device. Wireless charging wraps very long, very thin wires that present a higher resistance and burn more power off as heat.

1638246746639.png


In theory if you charge a primary coil and that energy doesn't couple to a secondary and dissipate in a load, that reactive near field is captured back to the source and no energy is lost. So in theory, the iron core doesn't really matter much-- if your transformer coupling is weak, your complex impedance is mostly imaginary and you build up and collapse a big reactive field that stores a bunch of energy and returns it to the charger. No (real) load, no power dissipation.

In theory, theory and practice are the same, but in practice they are not. In practice, every time you build up that field and tear it down, your pushing current through those windings and those windings have resistance that converts that current to heat. If you're coupling coefficient goes down because you have an inefficient core it means you need to push more current on the primary to get enough power on the secondary and thus are generating more heat for the same transfer.

That said, I think the cores aren't half bad in the iPhones. For the flat coils used in phones, I'm sure there's a ferrous sheet on the backside of each coil and the coils are pretty close together-- you can also see that in the picture above, and you can see ferrite in the middle of the coil as well. Sure, there's an airgap in the magnetic circuit, but it's common to include an air gap in most power transformers. The Qi chargers are resonant (hey look, Tesla reentered the conversation!), so they are designed to oscillate at the frequency that best matches the impedance and maximizes power transfer.

The biggest efficiency problem with most wireless chargers is coil misalignment-- if the coils aren't aligned then the coupling coefficient goes way down. Magsafe solves that problem by ensuring alignment. So while people love to call Apple hypocritical on efficiency, they found a way to make wireless charging about as efficient as it can be.


However you stack it, the problem is resistive losses in the coils made worse by the thin wires needed to put that coil in a thin phone. Faraday's law is fun but all bows to Ohm's law.
 
Last edited:
Putting fun gadget ideas aside here for a moment.
Apple is supposed to be a green company "Save the planet" and all that. Which is great and something we should hope all companies actually do, and not just say.
The most green way is to charge our hundreds of millions of devices in the most efficient, non wasteful method possible to save power station usage.
Unless something dramatic happens and we get a breakthrough new tech, all this wireless charging is very bad.
It seems wireless is around 50% as efficient as a wire connection.

We currently have around 15 Billion mobile devices in the world.
Do we really want to double the amount of power generated to keep these devices running if they were wireless?

And now much is this extra power consumption as a percentage of total global power usage overall? We have people mining crypto, running power-hungry alder lake CPUs etc and nobody bats an eyelid. A billion iOS devices using more power for wireless charging may not end up using all that much extra power in absolute terms.
 
If Apple makes their phone portless they can’t care that much about the earth unless something big changes with regards to wireless charging efficiency.
I’m surprised Apple hasn’t implemented MagSafe more similar to the original Mac version on iPhones, or even use their Smart Connector (which is effectively a version of MagSafe) for charging iPhones. Either implementation would eliminate the need for the current Qi style charger coil in the iPhone, and it would be easier to protect it from dust or water incursion than a Lightning or USB-C port.

I assume the issue is how to move large amounts of data off of the iPhone if you’re not able to do so with a wire connection.
 
Apple introduced Lightning in 2012, as a replacement for the 30pin connector they had been using as the alternative to micro and mini-USB ports most mobile devices used at the time (which were and are complete crap). USB-C didn’t really show up until 2017, and that wasn’t widespread at that point. This idea that Apple is keeping Lightning around is just because of the MFI program profits is short-sighted at best.

It was difficult enough for Apple to make the shift from 30pin to Lightning given the millions of devices that were on the market that utilized 30pin connectors at the time, and that was after just 5 years of iPhones being on the market. Not sure if you remember, but there were tons of people complaining about needing to buy all new cables and speakers and such at the time. I still have a Bose speaker that uses 30pin, although I did chip it to make it Bluetooth capable once our 30pin iPhones all died.

And the number of iPhones grew exponentially over the past decade, so no one should be surprised that they haven’t made the shift to USB-C yet.

I personally would love for them to make iPhones USB-C, given I’ve been working with an iPad Pro for the past 3 years, so I’m already carrying around a 20+ watt USB-C charger and cable. That being said, I do currently have an old Apple Lightning iPhone desk stand on my desk, that I still use occasionally. I’ve kept it mainly because it looks good and holds my iPhone up so it faces me at a similar angle to what my iPad Pro screen is at, which is way better than having it lay flat on my desk, imho.
Apple may have come out sooner than USB-C but either other companies didn’t want to adopt an Apple standard for cabling or Apple wanted too much money and/or conditions. I don’t know which. But USB-C has won this battle, and Apple should just use it until they have something better AND that other companies can and will use.

If Apple ends up developing a wonderful charger with a cable that can slice/dice/make Julian fries as well as flawlessly stream 8k video then we can revisit this issue.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Agile55
Magsafe Duo is terrible, someone gave me as a Christmas gift and every single third party charger is better than that. I only carry with me on travels so I don't have to take 2 different chargers.

Looking forward to see what they can do with the sucessor of Airpower if it eventually happens.
I love my MagSafe Duo, partly for the reason you state. Also, it's really compact. Also, the magnets keep everything in optimal charging position. Also, it charges the iPhone at a fairly high rate. Not sure how that makes it "terrible".
 
Apple may have come out sooner than USB-C but either other companies didn’t want to adopt an Apple standard for cabling or Apple wanted too much money and/or conditions. I don’t know which. But USB-C has won this battle, and Apple should just use it until they have something better AND that other companies can and will use.

If Apple ends up developing a wonderful charger with a cable that can slice/dice/make Julian fries as well as flawlessly stream 8k video then we can revisit this issue.
There is no way that Apple would have licensed Lightning to other phone manufacturers. An interesting thing that I think people may not realize, or forget that it’s the case, is that Apple is part of the USB consortium, so they know full well what’s being worked on and when new ports were coming to market. They chose Lightning because there was no USB-C in 2012 and in the proceeding 5 years to when USB-C did hit the market, Apple already had a huge base of devices using Lightning and tons of accessory makers offering MFI Lightning products that were also in consumer’s hands. And there was just far less reason to implement it at that point.

They probably should have made the jump to USB-C with the iPhone already, but again they’re working on things 3-5 years out and they know what’s coming before any of us tech enthusiasts or pundits hear about what’s next as far as chargers / cables / ports go.
 
Does anyone remember how many references of the long range charging we had prior to iPhone X launch? That phone was supposed to have this cool true wireless feature where you just plug in the brick and magically charge your device… I think this feature has become somewhat of colored home button on iPhone 5S: a bunch of rumors before launch that no one mentions after.
(I meant that colored ring around home button that was supposed to change colours depending on the actions of user)
 
There is no way that Apple would have licensed Lightning to other phone manufacturers. An interesting thing that I think people may not realize, or forget that it’s the case, is that Apple is part of the USB consortium, so they know full well what’s being worked on and when new ports were coming to market. They chose Lightning because there was no USB-C in 2012 and in the proceeding 5 years to when USB-C did hit the market, Apple already had a huge base of devices using Lightning and tons of accessory makers offering MFI Lightning products that were also in consumer’s hands. And there was just far less reason to implement it at that point.

They probably should have made the jump to USB-C with the iPhone already, but again they’re working on things 3-5 years out and they know what’s coming before any of us tech enthusiasts or pundits hear about what’s next as far as chargers / cables / ports go.
I knew that Apple was part of the USB consortium. And if Apple had used the time to seriously try and make the Lightning cable a viable option for charging and data then maybe it would be USB-C that is the technology that people would be saying should throw in the towel. But either competitors actively didn’t WANT to use Lightning (very possible) or Apple didn’t want them to have it-also very possible. In fact, both possibilities could have been true.

When Apple made first the iPod and then the iPhone there wasn’t a universal power/data cord. USB -A and B existed but there were lots of other cobbled together power/data solutions and if Apple had tried maybe we wouldn’t be looking at all of the Lightning/USB-C cable combination ends that are used for iPhone/IPad to power brick and how some iPads still using Lightning inputs and others using USB-C. My guess is that USB -C can supply more power as Apple is using that as an option on some M1 models of laptops.
 
In my home and work lives, I'm constantly up and down, taking my phone with me everywhere. If I had to plug in and unplug it every time I sat down, that would be frustrating. Instead, I have wireless chargers throughout my home and business and just set the phone down for a moment.

Remember, not everyone's situation is the same as yours.
Sure! Everyone is different, but your phone has a 10 hour (or more battery) and it charges in 30min up to 80% (or something like that, I'm giving some approximate numbers), so you don't need to plug it in everytime. As long as you plug it in every 5 hours 30min for example it's perfectly fine. Also, if you're in an office environment it may be easier just to keep it plugged in all the time if you use it so much and then a cable will be more stable than a wireless dongle, that way you never run out of battery.
But yeah, it's a personal opinion of course, not everyone would agree. I'd much rather have USB-C than wireless charging.
 
Register on MacRumors! This sidebar will go away, and you'll see fewer ads.