Apple Stock Smashes Previous All-Time High For Second Month Running

[IJ Reilly]

Right but I also left out the fact that consumers are also willing to spend more money as well. I'm having a hard time with people who keep denying Trump any sort of credit for helping the economy in general. He's doing it but the hate is still blinding everyone.

He gets no credit for it, because he deserves no credit for it. It's about facts, not hate.

 

[JimW47]

Incredible.

Expectation for future growth and sales must be high. Amazing.

 

[Chupa Chupa]

Effective Tax rate on paper. What they actually write the check for, around 8%. That hide the money overseas thing big corporations do. If we stop the overseas money laundering and dropped the corporate tax to 15%, Apple would pay more. Why corporations like Apple are very careful about corporate tax reduction plans.

The money isn't hidden overseas, it's earned there. Apple just isn't repatriating it. Difference. But Apple pays the taxes due in every country it operates in subject to that country's laws. There is no shenanigans going on. The whole EU debacle is based on an agreement Apple made with Ireland. EU is objecting. We'll see how it works out. Whatever is legally due Apple will pay in the end.

 

[citysnaps]

...and from a business perspective that is smart, very smart. Apple is in a great position to really milk their customers. I can't think of any other company that had a better opportunity to do that (that did NOT have a monopoly). It would be fiscally irresponsible if Apple didn't take advantage of the opportunity.

Most customers don't care about a "same ol' iPhone" and those loyal customers who DO care aren't going anywhere. Apple has zero incentive to do anything differently.

If everyone who said that they'd leave the Apple ecosystem actually did, then MAYBE that would be enough of a blip for Apple to take notice. But what happens is they say they're waiting for Apple to change... but continue to buy their products in the meantime. That's some great incentive for Apple to change. LOL

"If everyone who said that they'd leave the Apple ecosystem actually did, then MAYBE that would be enough of a blip for Apple to take notice."

You mean the couple of dozen people here? Out of around or close to a billion customers? Not even a blip.

And... it's clear those here don't have the courage to make the move and get on with their life. Much easier to let loose with a tiny whine and get that feeling of power.

 

[sracer]

"If everyone who said that they'd leave the Apple ecosystem actually did, then MAYBE that would be enough of a blip for Apple to take notice."

You mean the couple of dozen people here? Out of around or close to a billion customers? Not even a blip.

And... it's clear those here don't have the courage to make the move and get on with their life. Much easier to let loose with a tiny whine and get that feeling of power.

I'm not going to argue that point, but suffice it to say that there are far more than the couple of dozen people on this forum. The world is much larger than MacRumors.

 

[kaneda]

Maybe they know something we don't know - except for the iPhone 8?

Probably iphone 8 rumors causing the stock to go up. Once the announcement is over, you will see some sell off...

 

[IJ Reilly]

The money isn't hidden overseas, it's earned there. Apple just isn't repatriating it. Difference. But Apple pays the taxes due in every country it operates in subject to that country's laws. There is no shenanigans going on. The whole EU debacle is based on an agreement Apple made with Ireland. EU is objecting. We'll see how it works out. Whatever is legally due Apple will pay in the end.

Discussing this in terms of "hiding" and "shenanigans" or even "legality" will never get to the bottom of the matter. The reality is corporations are pretty good at lobbying for a tax system that works for them and playing countries off against each other to ensure that it works for them. Call it whatever you like, but it won't change what is happening, and doesn't alter the underlying issues.

 

[citysnaps]

I'm not going to argue that point, but suffice it to say that there are far more than the couple of dozen people on this forum. The world is much larger than MacRumors.

OK... From your survey, what's your number? Still mice nuts compared to the total.

 

[npmacuser5]

It's more like 21% for the last 3 years combined and 18% for FY 2016. But, yes, the effective tax rate (of 25-26%) that often gets reported for Apple includes a significant amount of deferred tax liability that Apple hasn't actually paid yet.

In very broad strokes (I'm happy to discuss it in more detailed terms if you'd like), this is Apple's situation when it comes to paying income taxes:

Apple pays quite a high rate of U.S. income taxes if we look at the profits it makes from domestic sales - above the (federal) statutory rate of 35% even. That's because (1) it pays U.S. income taxes on a considerable portion of the profits it makes from sales in other parts of the Americas as the U.S. is were it considers the value to be created, (2) it pays a (relatively) small amount in state income taxes, and (3) it pays some U.S. income taxes on profits it makes from sales in other parts of the world as it remits those profits to the United States (i.e. to the parent company).

On the other hand, Apple pays quite a low rate of foreign income taxes if we look at the profits it makes from foreign sales. Most of those profits don't get remitted to the U.S. (i.e. to the parent company) so Apple doesn't pay U.S. income taxes on most of them. That isn't Apple shifting profits offshore as some companies do, those are profits that can legitimately be said to be made outside of the United States. Apple does, however, effectively shift where those foreign profits are accounted for (i.e. based on where the value is considered to be created) such that it avoids quite a bit of foreign taxation. Also, Apple has accounted for - but hasn't yet paid - U.S. income taxes on about half of those foreign profits which it hasn't yet remitted to the United States.

So... Apple doesn't really avoid paying taxes on legitimately domestic earnings, but it does avoid paying (a lot) of taxes on legitimately foreign earnings. Mixed together those dynamics mean that Apple pays an aggregate tax rate of around 20% (on all of its earnings) and accounts for taxes (i.e., as you refer to it, on paper) at an aggregate rate of around 25%.

Apple would make out pretty well if the U.S. lowered the corporate tax rate to 15%, even if that came with an elimination of corporate tax expenditures (i.e., among other things, Apple would have to pay U.S. income taxes on those foreign profits). Apple has advocated for just that, an elimination of corporate tax expenditures and a lowering of the corporate tax rate. And Apple has done that not necessarily based on the rate going down to 15%, but rather at something higher that might mean that Apple ended up paying a little more in taxes. Apple thinks simplified tax policies and the flexibility that would come with them would be worth the (tax) cost to it.

Thank you for the detailed information, very informative. While we disagree on the extent of the deviation in the effective rate, a very real deviation nonetheless. A misleading number, large or small in accounting, is still misleading and not acceptable when publishing those numbers to represent financial responsibilities. Example in a financial report. Ask almost anyone and they will most likely use the 25% number for Apple tax liability. Actual, 7% points from reality based on the above input. From this discussion, one might conclude the effective tax rate is a bogus misleading number in many cases. Love to see the actual dollar amount on the tax payment transaction. Thank you again for the information.

 

[wjw0111]

Lesson here: Abandon core product, outsource R&D, use same unoriginal designs year after year, and get involved in transgender bathrooms......stock goes up. Proof that the stock market is a flawed system.

What core product was abandoned? The Mac? I don't know. I just got my new MacBook Pro and am pretty impressed and loving it. Far from abandon, they've innovated once again in lots of ways. Sierra is a great OS. I actually LOVE the new keyboard (didn't so much like the 1st-gen butterfly in the MacBook, but the 2nd-gen is fantastic). I use a 5K iMac at work, I'd say launching into 5k is pretty impressive when they did it.

I think people get upset because Macs aren't on a frequent refresh cycle like phones are. But really, what do people want from new Mac's? I feel like they've continued to innovate (new form factor for Mac Pro, 5K for iMac, touch bar and new keyboard for MacBook Pros, shedding old ports to force adoption of a new standard just as they did for floppy drives and optical drives in days gone by. I think it's more just that in the decades-old world of computers there is just less innovation to do because so much has already been done. iPhones and iPads are less than or just reaching their 10th birthday and there is still more room for innovation.

As for the bathrooms, I don't get too political about it. I think everyone should just pee where they feel comfortable. The bathrooms in my house have been gender neutral my entire life.

 

[Carnegie]

Thank you for the detailed information, very informative. While we disagree on the extent of the deviation in the effective rate, a very real deviation nonetheless. A misleading number, large or small in accounting, is still misleading and not acceptable when publishing those numbers to represent financial responsibilities. Example in a financial report. Ask almost anyone and they will most likely use the 25% number for Apple tax liability. Actual, 7% points from reality based on the above input. From this discussion, one might conclude the effective tax rate is a bogus misleading number in many cases. Love to see the actual dollar amount on the tax payment transaction. Thank you again for the information.

You're welcome.

The dollar amounts for the last 2 fiscal years...

FY 2016

U.S. (federal and state) paid: $8.642 billion
U.S. (federal and state) deferred: $4.905 bilion

Foreign paid: $2.105 billion
Foreign deferred: $.033 billion

FY 2015

U.S. (federal and state) paid: $12.995 billion
U.S. (federal and state) deferred: $3.188 bilion

Foreign paid: $4.744 billion
Foreign deferred: ($1.806 billion)

 

[jjcaspar]

Thank you Donald!!

 

[62tele]

That will only do damage to Mac sales in the long run. In other words, the situation would have been better if they just kept the earlier MacBook Pro design but kept bumping the specs. Unfortunately, instead of improving the design, they moved towards a wrong direction (at a wrong time). To make things worse, they also increased the unit price at a insane percentage.

You know this how? I purchased one in December and it's fantastic. You have nothing to back up any of those opinions. Yes, the price increase was huge but, other than that, the design and performance is excellent.

 

[wjw0111]

You know this how? I purchased one in December and it's fantastic. You have nothing to back up any of those opinions. Yes, the price increase was huge but, other than that, the design and performance is excellent.

Agreed! Just got my MacBook Pro and it is fantastic. Love the new design and the price wasn't too bad at all (I got mine refurb, as I always do with Apple stuff)

 

[jujufreeze]

Sack Tim, sack him now, it's tanking, ITS TANKING!!!

Per your Wallstreet metric Steve Ballmer was one of tech's CEO greats. He presided over a six-fold increase in server-software sales, now one of Microsoft's largest businesses. Sales from the Office unit tripled. Ballmer instituted dividends that would have yielded $8.23 for investors who have held the stock the whole time the CEO was in charge. (Many of them didn't.) He was great for the stock market, but just didn't innovate much and left Microsoft floundering behind Apple.

 

[polbit]

Hmm, that reminds me of my Blackberry stock. It was doing so awesome! And then.... Used to be over 200 10+ years ago. And now? yep...

 

[Abazigal]

The watch market is easy to dominate at the moment. Give it a few years and Apple will loose all that market share just like the iPhone. AirPods are never going to dominate...they are cheap headphones with a battery. Only the Apple elitists are interested in them. The rest of us buy higher quality brands than Beats with an Apple logo.

Do you need reminding that it is the iPhone which continues to garner the bulk of the industry's profits despite having minority market share?

Probably iphone 8 rumors causing the stock to go up. Once the announcement is over, you will see some sell off...

That's the whole idea behind stocks no? Sell when the price is higher to earn a profit?

 

[MacBH928]

I can only imagine there are a bunch of people with billions of dollars in money not knowing what to do with it and their financial adviser is like "Just buy Apple stock, that will never fail"...

Unfortunately this "reward" will encourage Tim to walk his old path: No Mac Pros, high prices, underpowered hardware, more bands and forget about software development. We might be at last stage capitalism.

 

[firewood]

Paying out dividends is an admission that the company is making money faster than they can spend it.

That's the goal of most businesses that are owned by people.

 

[Cineplex]

What core product was abandoned? The Mac? I don't know. I just got my new MacBook Pro and am pretty impressed and loving it. Far from abandon, they've innovated once again in lots of ways. Sierra is a great OS. I actually LOVE the new keyboard (didn't so much like the 1st-gen butterfly in the MacBook, but the 2nd-gen is fantastic). I use a 5K iMac at work, I'd say launching into 5k is pretty impressive when they did it.

I think people get upset because Macs aren't on a frequent refresh cycle like phones are. But really, what do people want from new Mac's? I feel like they've continued to innovate (new form factor for Mac Pro, 5K for iMac, touch bar and new keyboard for MacBook Pros, shedding old ports to force adoption of a new standard just as they did for floppy drives and optical drives in days gone by. I think it's more just that in the decades-old world of computers there is just less innovation to do because so much has already been done. iPhones and iPads are less than or just reaching their 10th birthday and there is still more room for innovation.

As for the bathrooms, I don't get too political about it. I think everyone should just pee where they feel comfortable. The bathrooms in my house have been gender neutral my entire life.

There isn't any innovation there. The TouchBar is stolen from an older PC laptop, they keyboard isn't an improvement..just another compromise for the sake of pointless thinness. All the Mac OS X releases since 10.6 have been crap. They are piled with notification nonsense, pointless code signing for apps, and questionable stability. The Mac has become bloated and inelegant.
[doublepost=1489807035][/doublepost]

Do you need reminding that it is the iPhone which continues to garner the bulk of the industry's profits despite having minority market share?


That's the whole idea behind stocks no? Sell when the price is higher to earn a profit?

Yes. That always happens when douchebags buy things to be like other douchedags. It's a status symbol. It's like the Motorola Razr back in the day. The rest buy it to send iMessage confetti messages to their friends and family. It's all gimmicks and marketing lies. I would say the quality of 3rd party apps keeps them going. As each release goes by.... Apple is ruining iOS slowly.

 

[I7guy]

There isn't any innovation there. The TouchBar is stolen from an older PC laptop, they keyboard isn't an improvement..just another compromise for the sake of pointless thinness. All the Mac OS X releases since 10.6 have been crap. They are piled with notification nonsense, pointless code signing for apps, and questionable stability. The Mac has become bloated and inelegant.
[doublepost=1489807035][/doublepost]
Yes. That always happens when douchebags buy things to be like other douchedags. It's a status symbol. It's like the Motorola Razr back in the day. The rest buy it to send iMessage confetti messages to their friends and family. It's all gimmicks and marketing lies. I would say the quality of 3rd party apps keeps them going. As each release goes by.... Apple is ruining iOS slowly.

So to make the point, as weak as it is, throw some ad-homs to generalize a point that you can't prove. Got it.

 

[BuddyTronic]

I wish I was five years ahead in life to have the means to make some minor investments

Time is your most valuable asset. Enjoy it

See if you can put away some savings monthly and invest it in something
[doublepost=1489808383][/doublepost]

Discussing this in terms of "hiding" and "shenanigans" or even "legality" will never get to the bottom of the matter. The reality is corporations are pretty good at lobbying for a tax system that works for them and playing countries off against each other to ensure that it works for them. Call it whatever you like, but it won't change what is happening, and doesn't alter the underlying issues.

Hey the trump rally is real. It's as real as anything. For example, it's as real as technical analysis Fibonacci predictions. I mean to say, even if it's a self fullfilling prophecy is it still real

I happen to think the Trump rally is real because of the promise of tax relief good business policies My opinion is that the world will become a better place because Trump was elected but my opinion doesn't matter.

It's not just a fluke that the market rallied - it truly is a Trump rally

 

[Radon87000]

There isn't any innovation there. The TouchBar is stolen from an older PC laptop, they keyboard isn't an improvement..just another compromise for the sake of pointless thinness. All the Mac OS X releases since 10.6 have been crap. They are piled with notification nonsense, pointless code signing for apps, and questionable stability. The Mac has become bloated and inelegant.
[doublepost=1489807035][/doublepost]
Yes. That always happens when douchebags buy things to be like other douchedags. It's a status symbol. It's like the Motorola Razr back in the day. The rest buy it to send iMessage confetti messages to their friends and family. It's all gimmicks and marketing lies. I would say the quality of 3rd party apps keeps them going. As each release goes by.... Apple is ruining iOS slowly.

Nothing new here. Apple's iPhone 8 is basically a mishmash of features Androids have had for years

 

[AppleFan360]

He gets no credit for it, because he deserves no credit for it. It's about facts, not hate.

Pretty lame answer. Enjoy your piles of money thanks to Trump.

 

[wjw0111]

There isn't any innovation there. The TouchBar is stolen from an older PC laptop, they keyboard isn't an improvement..just another compromise for the sake of pointless thinness. All the Mac OS X releases since 10.6 have been crap. They are piled with notification nonsense, pointless code signing for apps, and questionable stability. The Mac has become bloated and inelegant.

Respectfully I disagree. I much prefer this new keyboard versus the old one, and also appreciate the thinness of this laptop. I'm the type that's coming from a MacBook Air though, never wanted a big bloated MacBook Pro. I sacrificed the better components for the thin and light form factor of the Air; but I love that now I can have best of both worlds with the new Pro.

I don't remember seeing a PC that replaced function keys with a multi-touch OLED panel, but I don't really follow the PC landscape. In any case, Apple typically "steals" from others. The iPod wasn't the first MP3 player, but it revolutionized that industry. The iPhone wasn't the first smartphone but also revolutionized that industry (just ask BlackBerry). Apple's never been the first to an industry, but many of us think when they entered the market they were the ones that did it right.

I still find Sierra very clean, especially compared to current Windows incarnations. When I use a friend's Windows laptop I'm shocked at the amount of security warnings and **** one has to work through to do virtually anything. I used to be in the Linux world and miss parts of it, but at the same time it had it's own pains, typically related to compatibility.

I'm surprised Snow Leopard was the last version of MacOS you liked. I couldn't imagine going back to an 8 year-old OS.

If you haven't liked the OS since Lion launched in 2011, 6 years ago, and you don't like the current hardware either why are you still following an Apple message board? Shouldn't you go get a Dell or Lenovo or something and forget visiting MacRumors?