Apple Stops Selling iPhone 14 and iPhone SE in More EU Countries

[surferfb]

No, why should I? I do want to have iPhone, but I also want to sideload apps. So either let people sideload or get punished by EU. So easy

I want my PS5 to play Xbox exclusive games. Should the EU come in to force them to work together? I want my Tesla to offer CarPlay - can the EU fix that please? I prefer McDonalds French fries but otherwise like Burger King - can the EU fix that for me?

Every product is about trade offs. If you don’t like what they’re offering the correct solution is to not buy it.

Still, that’s monopoly abuse.

No, Apple is literally not a monopoly and it’s literally not abuse.

 

[I7guy]

If you cut the compatibility on purpose to not make it compatible with standards and refuse to open up then it becomes imho a governmental issue. That’s why the EU has to intervene, for the sake of all customers. If you don’t like it that’s up to you.
Again, why don’t let people use their phones who the fk they want?

Sorry that’s just a sorry excuse for the EU. And if you believe all manner of regulation is good, you will eventually see why it is not good.

 

[jlc1978]

No, you're misinterpreting the spec. Power delivery is not optional for a USB-C cable. It's optional for chargers and devices to support the USB-PD protocol, but all USB-C cables passively support power at 3A.

I'm not sure what part of (except OIAC) in the spec is unclear:

All of the defined USB Type-C receptacles, plugs and cables (except OIAC) support USB charging applications, including support for the optional USB Type-C-specific implementation of the USB Power Delivery Specification

An OIAC cable is not intended for charging applications and thus does not need to support it as an electrically isolated cable.

It's similar allowing retro gaming emulators in non-EU App Stores: They don't want the rest of the world clamouring for something imposed upon them by EU regulation. And they absolutely want to negative backlash for not giving something to the rest of the world that EU regulation has forced them to do in the EU.

Retrogaming is an interesting topic. For all the "you can get homebrew games" its main use is to pirate titles, even if they are available still from the copyright owner in some format. Now that emulators are allowed, Apple should be shielded from contributing to copyright infringement by making emulators available. I suspect there will be outrage if Apple releases the information on a developer offering an emulator in response to a copyright holder's request. They won't even have to in the EU if there is a charge for the emulator as then as a trader the developer must provide contact information.

Personally, as someone who likes many of the old arcade titles, I think Nintendo/Atari/et. al. are missing a market for those games, along with PS1/N64 etc. by not making them more widely available on smartphones, Apple TV, Macs, PCs, etc. They used to release Arcade Classics for game consoles, why not go all in on other devices? Too small a market? Price point too low to make a reasonable ROI?

 

[Hank001]

View attachment 2466790
gone in the netherlands, cant say im surprised

What happens when you click on "Shop iPhone"? That icon still has the SE showing...

 

[Stiksi]

Messed up replying, feel free to delete.

 

[DeepIn2U]

I’m surprised Apple got to the point of having to remove the SE from sale before the new USB-C model is available.

This law isn’t a surprise and there’s been plenty of time to plan for it.

The law specifically states any phone already in market can continue to be sold just now new models havin old ports. So this move is odd if not only 6o restock in ither regions.

 

[Reason077]

An OIAC cable is not intended for charging applications and thus does not need to support it as an electrically isolated cable.

OK, fair enough, you've got me there!

But optical USB cables are very expensive (hundreds of $!), and used for specialised applications. I don't think I've ever come across one myself. In any case, they will be specially marked as such and It's very unlikely that a typical consumer will pick one up and wonder why they can't charge their device with it.

 

[jlc1978]

OK, fair enough, you've got me there!

But optical USB cables are very expensive (hundreds of $!), and used for specialised applications. I don't think I've ever come across one myself. In any case, they will be specially marked as such and It's very unlikely that a typical consumer will pick one up and wonder why they can't charge their device with it.

Oh, I agree you’re not likely to see one in the wild.

The likely scenario, IMHO, is the proliferation of certified and nonstandard cables means users will not be certain any cable will do what they need until they try it.

Standardizing on USB-C is a good idea but far from one cable to rule all; and those that might won’t be cheap relatively speaking.

 

[DownUnderDan]

I want my PS5 to play Xbox exclusive games. Should the EU come in to force them to work together? I want my Tesla to offer CarPlay - can the EU fix that please? I prefer McDonalds French fries but otherwise like Burger King - can the EU fix that for me?

Every product is about trade offs. If you don’t like what they’re offering the correct solution is to not buy it.


No, Apple is literally not a monopoly and it’s literally not abuse.

Europe chooses to not agree with your point of view.You will have to adapt to the fact your way of thinking of the world around you doesn't align with 449 million other people. Stuff happens.

 

[surferfb]

Europe chooses to not agree with your point of view.You will have to adapt to the fact your way of thinking of the world around you doesn't align with 449 million other people. Stuff happens.

I suspect the vast majority of the 449 million people in the EU don’t care what charger the iPhone uses, that iPhones don’t allow side loading, or that developers don’t get access to private APIs.

But if Europeans truly want worse products designed by bureaucrats in Brussels rather than better products designed by engineers in tech companies that’s their business. It’s a shame it also makes the rest of the world’s products worse too, but it is what it is.

 

[Reason077]

I prefer McDonalds French fries but otherwise like Burger King

Weird, I'm the opposite. The fries are the best thing about Burger King! Much nicer than McDonald's ones.

 

[Reason077]

But if Europeans truly want worse products designed by bureaucrats in Brussels rather than better products designed by engineers in tech companies that’s their business.

If there were actual evidence of this then you'd have a good point. But in the case of Apple, the opposite was true: we were getting worse products because Apple wanted to lock consumers in to an inferior, proprietary plug standard.

 

[surferfb]

If there were actual evidence of this then you'd have a good point. But in the case of Apple, the opposite was true: we were getting worse products because Apple wanted to lock consumers in to an inferior, proprietary plug standard.

This was primarily a reference to the EU’s software regulations, which have already made iOS worse for everyone (all of the time Apple engineers are having to spend implementing those regulations is time not spent on fixing bugs and creating new features) so Apple’s competitors can freeload off of Apple’s intellectual property and R&D.

But as I’ve repeatedly stated, mandating a connector is a bad idea that will eventually lead to worse products than we would have had otherwise. And it is particularly silly when Apple was already moving to USB-C. I won’t be able to point and say “I told you so” because I can’t point at a negative, but products will be worse in the future - maybe not soon, but eventually they will be.

The fact that anyone thinks a connector should be mandated after the EU wanted to mandate micro-usb blows my mind. Just because usb-c is the best today (and again it’s actually slightly worse at being a connector than lightening even if it’s ubiquity makes it more convenient) doesn’t mean it would have been the best in ten or twenty years. And if you believe the EU will ever change the standard I have oceanfront property in Austria you’ll be interested in buying.

 

[jlc1978]

If there were actual evidence of this then you'd have a good point. But in the case of Apple, the opposite was true: we were getting worse products because Apple wanted to lock consumers in to an inferior, proprietary plug standard.

I'm not convinced it was necessarily inferior given its history. Apple needed to replace the 30 pin connector with something better, and USB-C was still in the future; and thus the Lightening connector was born. Lightening had many of the advantages USB-C would later have - small, flippable, and robust.

the USB-C spec came out 2 years later, but it took a while for USB-C to start gaining traction and by the time it did there was an ecosystem around the Lightening connector for iPhone/iPad users. Apple faced a quandary - do we dump Lightening early on and basically make all the existing accessories unusable without a dongle and upset users as well as force accessory makers to retool their products, or ride with Lightening until USB-C becomes widespread and then sunset Lightening.

The EU may have speed up the switch but it was inevitable. From a financial perspective, I'm guessing the sale of cables, chargers and dongles made up for any lost MiFi revenue, especially since most stuff was never certified anyway but simply a knockoff of the connector.

Side note: My earlier "what part of ..." reply was a bit snarky, and I apologize for that. I try to stay civil but sometimes I can't resist temptation.

The fact that anyone thinks a connector should be mandated after the EU wanted to mandate micro-usb blows my mind. Just because usb-c is the best today (and again it’s actually slightly worse at being a connector than lightening even if it’s ubiquity makes it more convenient) doesn’t mean it would have been the best in ten or twenty years. And if you believe the EU will ever change the standard I have oceanfront property in Austria you’ll be interested in buying.

The next standard will no doubt be designed by the USB-IF, which takes time. I have no doubt once they get serious about a replacement, discussion will take place to allow a transition to a new connector; and we'll make the same arguments for and against it.

I am not a big fan of government regulation, as it distorts markets, creates barriers to entry and often ultimately favors incumbents. But am not an anarchist either, and realize some level of government regulation is needed for a market to function, the question always remains, "How much is enough?"

As for ocean front property, I hear Sydney has some beautiful ones...

Edit: Grammar fix

 

[Baslea]

This was primarily a reference to the EU’s software regulations, which have already made iOS worse for everyone (all of the time Apple engineers are having to spend implementing those regulations is time not spent on fixing bugs and creating new features) so Apple’s competitors can freeload off of Apple’s intellectual property and R&D.

But as I’ve repeatedly stated, mandating a connector is a bad idea that will eventually lead to worse products than we would have had otherwise. And it is particularly silly when Apple was already moving to USB-C. I won’t be able to point and say “I told you so” because I can’t point at a negative, but products will be worse in the future - maybe not soon, but eventually they will be.

The fact that anyone thinks a connector should be mandated after the EU wanted to mandate micro-usb blows my mind. Just because usb-c is the best today (and again it’s actually slightly worse at being a connector than lightening even if it’s ubiquity makes it more convenient) doesn’t mean it would have been the best in ten or twenty years. And if you believe the EU will ever change the standard I have oceanfront property in Austria you’ll be interested in buying.

So you really believe Apple didn't already made their products on purposely worse? Let me guess, you're also in favor of the dumb CTF, although developers are already paying for the Dev account and the devices.
But that's nice to see, people like you are the reason the ones in Brussels/Strasbourg have to intervene.

 

[jlc1978]

So you really believe Apple didn't already made their products on purposely worse? Let me guess, you're also in favor of the dumb CTF, although developers are already paying for the Dev account and the devices.

Developers already have to pay for devices no matter what platform they use, and Apple's developer account is very cheap; enabling a lot of people to become a developer with very little capital at risk.

If Apple is forced to do things that significantly reduce the App Store revenue I would expect them to change the pricing of a lot of things currently included in the developer account fee, to make up for that, which could hurt small developers.

But that's nice to see, people like you are the reason the ones in Brussels/Strasbourg have to intervene.

Intervention is not necessarily bad; the challenge is the unintended consequences and collateral damage form intervention.

The real fight will be between the big players over who gets what cut of the revenue, if the big revenue ones want access to the App Store user base Apple will find a way to make them pay for it.

The small developers may simply end up road kill.

 

[surferfb]

So you really believe Apple didn't already made their products on purposely worse?

Correct. In fact, I think the idea is laughable. Apple's opinion on what is "better" and "worse" is simply different than yours. I think if Apple leadership ordered product designers to intentionally make their products worse to make more money, the rank and file inside of Apple would have absolutely leaked that to the tech press. I also don't think Apple is the type of company to rest on their laurels or think their products are "good enough" particularly in a market as competitive as smartphones.

And again, even if Apple wanted to make its products intentionally worse, that's not a problem the EU needs to step in and solve. No one is forcing anyone to buy an iPhone, switching to Android is simple. The market is perfectly capable of dealing with that without draconian regulations dictating what private APIs Apple has to share with Meta.

Let me guess, you're also in favor of the dumb CTF, although developers are already paying for the Dev account and the devices.

I am in favor of Apple being properly compensated for the developers' use of Apple's intellectual property (and Apple's development and maintenance of said intellectual property). I'd personally prefer that to be through the existing method of requiring all apps to be sold in the App Store, but since the EU has decided that Google's model is the only one allowed (so much for competition!), the CTF seems to be a decent enough workaround to ensure Apple is properly compensated. Yes it's complicated, but that's what happens when your regulators think they are qualified to design foreign companies' hardware, software, and business models for them.

But that's nice to see, people like you are the reason the ones in Brussels/Strasbourg have to intervene.

The EU didn't have to intervene. Apple has 25% market share in the EU, and Android has 75%. Android allows alternate app stores, side loading, and uses USB-C. The platform winning in the EU provides everything they say they want. The market is working! If you prefer the design of the PS5 but want to play Xbox-exclusive games you have to decide what is more important to you. Same here - if you prefer iOS but want an open ecosystem you should have decide what is more important to you. Not have the government come in and outlaw a business model so others can freeload off of that company's hard work.

When all you have is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail. What the EU doesn't seem to realize is their impulse to regulate everything and everyone is a large reason for their inability to compete in consumer tech.

 

[surferfb]

I'm not convinced it was necessarily inferior given its history. Apple needed to replace the 30 pin connector with something better, and USB-C was still in the future; and thus the Lightening connector was born. Lightening had many of the advantages USB-C would later have - small, flippable, and robust.

the USB-C spec came out 2 years later, but it took a while for USB-C to start gaining traction and by the time it did there was an ecosystem around the Lightening connector for iPhone/iPad users. Apple faced a quandary - do we dump Lightening early on and basically make all the existing accessories unusable without a dongle and upset users as well as force accessory makers to retool their products, or ride with Lightening until USB-C becomes widespread and then sunset Lightening.

The EU may have speed up the switch but it was inevitable. From a financial perspective, I'm guessing the sale of cables, chargers and dongles made up for any lost MiFi revenue, especially since most stuff was never certified anyway but simply a knockoff of the connector.

Agree 100%

The next standard will no doubt be designed by the USB-IF, which takes time. I have no doubt once they get serious about a replacement, discussion will take place to allow a transition to a new connector; and we'll make the same arguments for and against it.

I'd argue that USB-C came out in large part as a response to Lightening. If no one is developing an alternate charger we're not going to see improvements. I suspect our only hope is that small, wearable devices eventually require smaller, more advanced chargers that work their way into smartphones. Or that wireless becomes the norm, but I expect if that happens the EU will write a regulation demanding all smartphones have a charging port.

I am not a big fan of government regulation, as it distorts markets, creates barriers to entry and often ultimately favors incumbents. But am not an anarchist either, and realize some level of government regulation is needed for a market to function, the question always remains, "How much is enough?"

Agree 100% I've worked in government and with government regulators for twenty years now. I've actually helped write government regulations! I'm not an anarchist, I just think most things are best left to industry, unless they're related to things like health, safety, financial security, etc. In my opinion "what charger a smartphone uses", "what private APIs must be shared with competitors", and "business model of the smartphone platform with 25% market share" don't come within 1,000 miles of rising to the level of "things the government should dictate." It's clear that very vocal people on MacRumors disagree - that's fine and to be expected. Ultimately it doesn't matter what any of us think, (well, unless one of us happens to work for the EU in the area of tech regulation 😂).

As for ocean front property, I hear Sydney has some beautiful ones...

Edit: Grammar fix

Sydney yes, Vienna no

 

[jlc1978]

I'd argue that USB-C came out in large part as a response to Lightening. If no one is developing an alternate charger we're not going to see improvements.

Apple, IIRC, played a role in developing USB-C as part of the USB-IF, and USB-C shares some similarity with Lightening. Which is why I think USB-C for phones was the plan all along, just a different timeline.

I suspect our only hope is that small, wearable devices eventually require smaller, more advanced chargers that work their way into smartphones.

100% agree on that.

Or that wireless becomes the norm, but I expect if that happens the EU will write a regulation demanding all smartphones have a charging port.

The USB spec allows for phones that charge only wirelessly without requiring a USB-C port. I suspect, however, they will mandate some sort of wireless standard.

Sydney yes, Vienna no

Nur ein bisschen Wiener Schmäh

 

[Reason077]

I'm not convinced it was necessarily inferior given its history. Apple needed to replace the 30 pin connector with something better, and USB-C was still in the future; and thus the Lightening connector was born. Lightening had many of the advantages USB-C would later have - small, flippable, and robust.

Oh, I'm not suggesting that Lightning wasn't the right solution for its time. It's just that Apple clung on to it for years longer than they should have. The writing was on the wall by 2019 or so, especially considering they'd already transitioned iPads and MacBooks by then.

 

[Reason077]

The next standard will no doubt be designed by the USB-IF, which takes time. I have no doubt once they get serious about a replacement, discussion will take place to allow a transition to a new connector; and we'll make the same arguments for and against it.

I don't think there'll be a need for a replacement connector for a very long time. By design, USB-C has a lot of "legs" in terms of extending it to higher speeds and new alternate signalling/operating modes, meaning it can be used for applications we haven't even thought of yet, without breaking backwards compatibility. Potentially it could even be extended to yet higher power levels (beyond 240W).

You can certainly argue that the connector is too big to fit on future devices as they get smaller and thinner, but in that case it makes more sense to go to wireless / inductive charging, like Apple Watch & AirPods, rather than invent some new tiny plug.

I do think there's a need for a standardised higher-power DC connector for large consumer devices (e-bikes, garden tools, etc), so that these devices can share chargers. Right now every brand has its own proprietary charger and plug and it's a real pain if you have a garage full of them. But this category needs higher power levels than USB-C can provide.

 

[Reason077]

The USB spec allows for phones that charge only wirelessly without requiring a USB-C port. I suspect, however, they will mandate some sort of wireless standard.

Indeed. And there already is a wireless charging standard, "Qi". You can charge an Android phone wirelessly on an Apple MagSafe charger and it works just fine.

 

[AppliedMicro]

To MR posters accused = guilty.

That's not what I said.

Hence my post was worded precisely that way

Whatever clever rhetorical trick you tried to pull off there does not change the facts:
Apple was accused by multiple competition regulators in the world - and fined/sued by some.

I want my PS5 to play Xbox exclusive games. Should the EU come in to force them to work together? I want my Tesla to offer CarPlay - can the EU fix that please?

And I want with the replacement broom heads on offer at the local supermarket to work with the stick I already own. And likewise for the razor blades.

I'm sure the different natures of the products is not lost to "vast majority of ... people (to reuse your own words).
And neither is the issue with the manufacturer gatekeeping access to accessories/services. Smartphones have become essential tools in communication, media consumption and organising our daily lives - whereas gaming consoles are merely used to play games (basically).

Also, why do you want CarPlay support in your Tesla?
Can't you just vote with your money and buy a phone that offers such integration

The fact that anyone thinks a connector should be mandated after the EU wanted to mandate micro-usb blows my mind

Just because usb-c is the best today (and again it’s actually slightly worse at being a connector than lightening even if it’s ubiquity makes it more convenient)

You can cling to Micro-USB argument (which the EU did not mandate on smartphones) and conjecture about (inhibited) development of "superior connectors" all you want...

But if Europeans truly want worse products designed by bureaucrats in Brussels rather than better products designed by engineers in tech companies that’s their business

👉 The inclusion of USB-C has made it a better product.

For the same reasons that Apple began to introduce it to their iPad lineup ages ago (6 years - a long time in tech).

It allows for faster charging, faster transfer speeds. And importantly, connection of peripherals with a standard connector. iPhone users - a minority of device buyers in Europe (by your own argument) - were long enough ridiculed for Apple's slower, proprietary connector, the price premium for their cables and inability to plug in...things like a normal flash drive. No one's shedding a tear for Lightning.

 

[jlc1978]

Smartphones have become essential tools in communication, media consumption and organising our daily lives

For which regulators share the blame for allowing companies to get rid of perfectly good non smart phone options snd move to apps only solutions that can track your every move.

 

[I7guy]

That's not what I said.


Whatever clever rhetorical trick you tried to pull off there does not change the facts:
Apple was accused by multiple competition regulators in the world - and fined/sued by some.

And whatever spin you put on it, apple has not lost any of these suits. With a budge of $1B/year, Apple has defended itself successfully. Can you name one app store suit that has succeeded. Or are you going to post nonsense from the ebook days.

[...]

It allows for faster charging, faster transfer speeds. And importantly, connection of peripherals with a standard connector. iPhone users - a minority of device buyers in Europe (by your own argument) - were long enough ridiculed for Apple's slower, proprietary connector, the price premium for their cables and inability to plug in...things like a normal flash drive. No one's shedding a tear for Lightning.

Don't speak for me, when you claim "no one is shedding a tear for lightning".