Apple Store Managers Being Trained On "Union Awareness"

[blue22]

don't hate, appreciate...

Right because the employee benefits system in Europe is so efficient and not a drain on economies at all.

Employee benefits don't drain the system at all, its the abuse of benefits that is the problem.

Bingo!

Corruption and/or mis-managment can invade either side of the this coin, but it's still better to have an option of a union than none at all.

Otherwise, businesses (most especially Big Business like all those Blue Chip companies) would be able to go unfettered in potentially neglecting their worker's most basic of rights along with taking advantage of them behind their backs. Y'know, like participating in things such as Dead Peasant policies and such. So if you give an inch they'll take a yard as the saying goes. Just some food for thought.

 

[TMar]

I'm sorry; I didn't mean to ignore any of your points. I was merely pointing out that "passion" isn't much of a basis for motivation. My argument would be that doctors should be paid more than enough to "make a living" off of it. They go to school (and very difficult school at that) for a great deal of time, and at great personal and financial expense. The only way to justify that hardship to some kid who's staying in and studying, and going broke, while his friends are having a blast enjoying their twenties, is to offer a substantial profit motive.

The same goes for teachers. If we want the best schools, the best students, and ultimately the best future for our society, we should offer substantial profit motives to recruit the very best instructors and administrators. Or we could do what we've always done - which is to offer teachers the opportunity to just scrape by - and get what we've always gotten.

The problem with all that is when any profession makes good money you get a large number of people doing it just for the paycheck. Having a bunch of teachers that don't really want to teach and aren't doing their jobs is just as bad as having too few just scraping by. It's same with doctors.

A good example would be nurses. It's a easy education to get and pays decently so a lot of people do it. The problem is turnover with them is so high because most of them don't really want to do it. It's not easy work and a takes a certain skill set to be able to deal with people.

 

[StyxMaker]

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You have health benefits at your job? You have personal days or sick days? Protection on getting fired if as a female you become pregnant or bedridden while pregnant? Vacation time? All of those things do not exist without unions. Know your history, get educated before you spout off.

Just because a good thing can be abused does not void its existence.

I have all of those benefits without a union at my job. Unions are not required for benefits and treating employees right. Know what you are talking about before you spout off.

Union members died to get us these, now standard, working conditions. They will quickly disappear if unions are destroyed.

 

[nptski]

Unions simply mean everyone is considered the same in every respect. Raises and advancement is measured in seniority, not merit. It is a failed system. It is built around the lowest common denominator. Good workers cannot negotiate on their own behalf. The abuse is rampant.

Look at the public sector, it has gotten patently ridiculous. In our city, we have a 911 operator that costs $176,000/year. Ask her what she makes, she will say $68,000 but conveniently leaves off the overtime (absurd union work rules cause and allow), sick days (meant for actually being sick, not to bank and get paid because you weren't a liar), huge pension, and some other goodies.

The average in the fire dept. $175,000/yr., that's the average! retire at 50, spike your pay in your last year of work aided by everyone in the dept. to unsure they get the same treatment. Gotta love the firemen but it has gotten way out of hand. There are literally millions that would happily do it for a lot less and do an equal or superior job.

Plainly said, unions are killing this country. They have enormous funding through involuntary dues and huge influence over politicians. They are themselves the evil corporations they so often berate. Does anyone really believe the bosses do what they do because they care? They do it because it is in their self interest, pure and simple.

 

[darkplanets]

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Union members died to get us these, now standard, working conditions. They will quickly disappear if unions are destroyed.

Oh really, how so? Seriously, pray tell how a union dissolution is somehow going to lead to the degradation of worker's rights in the face of labor laws and other social norms now firmly established for some time.

You do realize that many industries don't have unions right now, and STILL have those "rights," right? Look at professional industry XYZ... lets call it pharma. They employ higher education professionals, who sure as hell aren't dumb enough to join a union. Do they still have the aforementioned rights? Yep. It's because of a wonderful concept called labor laws. Look them up.

 

[TMar]

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Union members died to get us these, now standard, working conditions. They will quickly disappear if unions are destroyed.

I'm sorry, how did those only union members deaths change anything? Non-union workers dying got standards on working conditions along the way too so I don't see how you can give them credit for that...

 

[darkplanets]

The average in the fire dept. $175,000/yr.

Dear god. I know a lot of PhD's who make less than that.

 

[RRNYC]

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Union members died to get us these, now standard, working conditions. They will quickly disappear if unions are destroyed.

Even anti-union folks appreciate what unions had done many years ago but to think that if unions cease so will the benefits is BS. That's what the unions want their members to think.

 

[StyxMaker]

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You have health benefits at your job? You have personal days or sick days? Protection on getting fired if as a female you become pregnant or bedridden while pregnant? Vacation time? All of those things do not exist without unions. Know your history, get educated before you spout off.

Just because a good thing can be abused does not void its existence.

IMO, there was a time when unions made sense. It protected employees before we had employment laws. All companies provide those benefits you listed and others, like protection for pregnant women, have actually become laws.

Nowadays, unions are more extortionists who protect bad employees from getting fired.

Tell that to the bad employees I've fired at my unionized work place.

 

[blue22]

don't get it twisted...

Unions had their time and place. There's a lot of things wrong with them on many different levels.

Well, you can say the exact same thing about government in general AND corporations as a whole. Yet who watches the Watchmen?

Why should someone's vocation dictate what they expect to get paid? Teachers should want to teach so they can teach not so they can make money. Don't get me wrong they should be able to make a living off of it but a lot of them expect to much out of it. Same with doctors where they should become doctors because they want to help people not to make $X amount per year.

It's the problem with society that people choose their vocations on what want to make per year instead of what they want/what motivates them. Most people choose a way of life to make money when they should choose what their passionate about.

So, by your rationale, one should be a drug dealer if they're really only about "making money" at the end of the day, yes? C'mon now...

Sorry, but you sound very naive of some of the most basic facts of our society. Being a teacher is one of the hardest jobs in the world these days and it doesn't help that these people are constantly underpaid for what they're actually expected to do, along with managing all the distracting administrative politics while enduring those stubborn and lazy parents that don't want to help discipline their own children and be more active in their children's education, and doing it in often over-crowded classrooms of 30+ students at a time for 6 periods a day. Having a "passion" for the profession doesn't mean you should have to tolerate a sub-par working environment prone to burnout just to get your "passion" on. And don't get me started on the various state school boards, what a self-serving joke most of them are!

And as for doctors, most of them do initially get into the profession to try to help others, but after 7+ years of studying your ass off to pass all your exams and be certified and land that initial residency, you better hope they're making some money to help pay off all those gigantic student loans they took out just to tread water, especially if they're going to be operating on you as you want them to be happy & well paid in your clutch time of need, right? The problem isn't so much about the doctors individually as much as it's about the hospital facilities they actually work in/for -- in the U.S.A. hospitals are runned primarily as A BUSINESS FIRST so the $$$ almost always gets into the way, i.e. compromising sound patient care and medical assessments in favor of promoting company policies aligned with the various drug & insurance companies insatiable appetite for profits that the particular hospital's executive board is in bed with.

So, again, there's only so much that "passion" can do for you when you're actually trying to do right by the world in a particular profession, but if company policy, gov't, and society at large is jerking you around as you embark on being a "passionate professional" after putting up with this crap for some time you're eventually not going to be as inclined to do your best after a while, now will you?

The same goes for teachers. If we want the best schools, the best students, and ultimately the best future for our society, we should offer substantial profit motives to recruit the very best instructors and administrators. Or we could do what we've always done - which is to offer teachers the opportunity to just scrape by - and get what we've always gotten.

Well said.

 

[firewood]

Union members died to get us these, now standard, working conditions. They will quickly disappear if unions are destroyed.

Wrong. Unions have gone away for some factories, the benefits did not disappear.

 

[StyxMaker]

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The average in the fire dept. $175,000/yr.

Dear god. I know a lot of PhD's who make less than that.

What's their base pay? How much of that is overtime? How much pay would it take to get you to run into burning buildings?

 

[theheadguy]

Unions are a way of an individual having more power. It's a basic contract. You swap individual choice for the power of the union and collective choice. In the UK some jobs tend to be very unionised. For instance I am a teacher and most teachers tend to be in a union. My union as well as negotiating on pay and conditions also employ lawyers to protect members against legal claims by employers and students. They also arbitrate in complex situations where the relationship between employer and employee has broken down or become strained.

Businesses are in the game to make money. If they can get away with something, then they will. Some businesses think it is a good model to get as much work out of people as possible. Other businesses take a longer term view and may treat their employees better. It's good if good will is the modus operandi but when your employer or it's managers are bullies, it is good to have a strong union on your side.

This is perfectly said. My career is in labor relations (in the US) on the side of management. Does it get annoying sometimes? Yes -- but if managers do their jobs, you can absolutely fire an incompetent employee. That being said, I absolutely believe in the power of collective bargaining.

What is interesting is the people who hate unions usually love "business associations" (i.e. the National Restaurant Association, etc.) What do people think those places are? They are basically unions between companies versus the courts, local and federal governments, and consumers as a whole.

It is inherent in the principle of democracy that people can combine together and leverage the power of a group if they choose to.

 

[RRNYC]

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Tell that to the bad employees I've fired at my unionized work place.

After how many offenses? How did it take? We've got hundreds of teachers in NYC that have been taken out of the classrooms for disciplinary reasons yet still receive a paycheck. Mon-Fri they all go to what can be best described as an adult game room and hang out, surf the web on city funded computers.

If your union is swift acting, than you are an exception. NYC doormen belong to a union. Our building has been trying to get rid of one of our doormen for 2 years. He downstairs as I type this, watching porn in our lobby on our buildings computer. He doesn't give a crap because he knows he won't get fired

 

[FrankieTDouglas]

Sure, unions can serve a purpose. But they can also be a tremendous roadblock to getting a job done.

I work in art education. I am not part of a teacher's union, but I deal with a campus plant that is unionized. This means for anything and everything that can be physically done on campus, they must be the ones to do it. I am remodeling one room in my department, but I can't place a single nail. I'd get written up because of their union contracts. Instead, I have to put in a work order, wait a week, or two weeks, or a month, and hope they deem it legitimate enough for them to schedule it into their to-do list. So while they're doing all of this, I'm losing valuable time in my department that is instead spent waiting (for a job I could very easily do, considering we are such a hands-on field in the first place).

I can't even hang curtains in my own office.

Forget about painting my door.

And let's not even forget what happens when I realize that my standard for a job well done, and their standard, is too completely different things. They just want to get in, make an attempt, produce a sloppy result, and call it done. And then I'm stuck with ****** craftsmanship that becomes a reflection of me, and again, I can't go behind them and do the work correctly. All because they are unionized. To get them to do the job right is like tip-toeing so as to not offend the delicately sensitive blue-collar workers who didn't give a **** in the first place, now being told that they need to go back and do it correct now.

 

[TMar]

Well, you can say the exact same thing about government in general AND corporations as a whole. Yet who watches the Watchmen?


So, by your rationale, one should be a drug dealer if they're really only about "making money" at the end of the day, yes? C'mon now...

Sorry, but you sound very naive of some of the most basic facts of our society. Being a teacher is one of the hardest jobs in the world these days and it doesn't help that these people are constantly underpaid for what they're actually expected to do, along with managing all the distracting administrative politics while enduring those stubborn and lazy parents that don't want to help discipline their own children and be more active in their children's education, and doing it in often over-crowded classrooms of 30+ students at a time for 6 periods a day. Having a "passion" for the profession doesn't mean you should have to tolerate a sub-par working environment prone to burnout just to get your "passion" on. And don't get me started on the various state school boards, what a self-serving joke most of them are!

And as for doctors, most of them do initially get into the profession to try to help others, but after 7+ years of studying your ass off to pass all your exams and be certified and land that initial residency, you better hope they're making some money to help pay off all those gigantic student loans they took out just to tread water, especially if they're going to be operating on you as you want them to be happy & well paid in your clutch time of need, right? The problem isn't so much about the doctors individually as much as it's about the hospital facilities they actually work in/for -- in the U.S.A. hospitals are runned primarily as A BUSINESS FIRST so the $$$ almost always gets into the way, i.e. compromising sound patient care and medical assessments in favor of promoting company policies aligned with the various drug & insurance companies insatiable appetite for profits that the particular hospital's executive board is in bed with.

So, again, there's only so much that "passion" can do for you when you're actually trying to do right by the world in a particular profession, but if company policy, gov't, and society at large is jerking you around as you embark on being a "passionate professional" after putting up with this crap for some time you're eventually not going to be as inclined to do your best after a while, now will you?

Most drug dealers don't make that much money, I think you've seen too many movies.

Teaching is one of the hardest jobs in the world? Come on now.

Doctors. They wouldn't need to pay off gigantic student loans if (watch the circle complete) they didn't have to pay the huge tuition's if it wasn't for secondary education charging huge tuition's to a) to make a profit b) pay overpriced professors aka teachers. I'm not going to get into how collage's/university's should make be out to make a profit.

For the rest of it you say having a high paid doctor is a happy doctor. So money makes everyone happy and makes them perform better? You lost all credit the second you equated making a lot of money to being happy. How naive is that!

 

[nizzard]

You have health benefits at your job? You have personal days or sick days? Protection on getting fired if as a female you become pregnant or bedridden while pregnant? Vacation time? All of those things do not exist without unions. Know your history, get educated before you spout off.

Just because a good thing can be abused does not void its existence.

ALL of those things exist without unions, douche.

 

[JoeG4]

I love the strawman arguments on how all unions must die because of a certain teacher's union.. or a certain fireman's union. Or rather, all public unions? I am sick of hearing the "We can't AFFORD TO PAY FOR THAT" line from my State's representatives as an excuse to cut programs that are cheaper than their alternatives (which cost more, but those costs partially go into their pockets so they're totally for it).

Unions are definitely necessary - they can afford to lobby in a system where companies lobby to violate our rights as citizens. Just like organized protesting, sometimes you actually do need a group of people to make problems heard and taken seriously.

 

[MacVidCards]

Unions have absolutely GUTTED the film biz here in LA.

I was in Local 44 for many years, it was a complete joke.

Basically at this point, if a TV show is on a network, then any moron who can load boxes into a truck and move couches gets $450/day, with lunch bought. Did I mention the fully paid health benefits? The pension and IRA getting another $3-4/hr? This on top of the $35+/hr.

So, the 17 or 18 people who can get a Union Set Dressing job in LA are very well taken care of. However, as a result any film or TV show that wants to get some work done and a decent image on tape at the end of the day has moved. Where? ANYWHERE ELSE.

We call it "Runaway Production" but can you really blame the Producers? That same "load boxes into a truck and move couches" job pays $15/hr anywhere else. Why pay $200-300 extra per day PER WORKER when you can just shoot in Utah or Michigan and have a workforce that WANTS to get work done.

The Union folks on set walk around as if they had PHds and are some sort of Super Race. "You can't ask me to move that, it isn't my department. I'm on my 15 minute break. I have to ask my supervisor first" Anything to avoid lifting a finger.

Oddly, the Leadmen and Decorators who are one step up the Union ladder make a TINY amount more. For loads more responsibility and hours of organizing at home, you get an extra dollar or two an hour. Why? Because the Lowest Common Denominator were asked "Would you like to make more money?" Oddly enough, they said "YES !!!" and now, as a result, the film business has gutted itself in LA. THe people who make up the bulk of the workforce, the "Stong Backs and Weak Minds" who load trucks and move couches have the most votes. The management level people are far fewer in number and have little voice in the Union. So it is HEAVILY focused and getting those truck loaders a nice "Professional Level" paycheck. (BTW, when I joined in 1996, the "buy in" for Local 44 was like $3,000. It is $5,000 or so now. Never quite clear what that money was for or where it went)

I worked on "Power Rangers" for awhile. Somehow, despite being a long running subsidized 1/2 hour commercial for toys, they had gotten a sweetheart deal from the Union where the workers got $15/hr instead of the usual $25-30 at the time. It was widely understood that each year the business agent had a meeting with the Producers and left with an envelope. He sold out dozens of workers for a little "more" himself. He was eventually booted from office when it was discovered that after multiple DUIs he had lost his driver's license. He was having some assistant working on the Local's payroll making scale DRIVE HIM AROUND to maintain his job. When told he was voted OUT, he barricaded himself in his office and refused to leave. He just couldn't give up all those juicy bonuses and benefits and join the rest of us who have to get paid for work based on our actual value to the world.

The underlying problem is human nature. When you give someone the power to decide if they should be paid more money for less work, they will almost always say "yes".

It is in every companies best interest to treat their employees well and make sure they don't lose respect for their managers. That is best way to keep a Union out. Very little good will come from Apple getting Unionized in their retail stores. Mandatory Cigarette breaks aside, these are simple retail jobs. Any bozo who can read the company script can do these jobs.

Unions should be run by members who rotate in for a year. They should never stay longer or be voted in. Members should put their name in a hat and get chosen randomly. Just like politicians, the people who want to run Unions are exactly the sort of people who should NOT run Unions.

 

[einmusiker]

Unions are a way of an individual having more power. It's a basic contract. You swap individual choice for the power of the union and collective choice. In the UK some jobs tend to be very unionised. For instance I am a teacher and most teachers tend to be in a union. My union as well as negotiating on pay and conditions also employ lawyers to protect members against legal claims by employers and students. They also arbitrate in complex situations where the relationship between employer and employee has broken down or become strained.

Businesses are in the game to make money. If they can get away with something, then they will. Some businesses think it is a good model to get as much work out of people as possible. Other businesses take a longer term view and may treat their employees better. It's good if good will is the modus operandi but when your employer or it's managers are bullies, it is good to have a strong union on your side.

What you see in the states is the selfish pigs tend to be the ones that bitch and complain that EVERY union member MUST be an incompetent leech. they tend to be the uneducated republican types

 

[JoeG4]

As a famous quote goes on Reddit:

"I've got mine, **** yours!"

 

[darkplanets]

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What's their base pay? How much of that is overtime? How much pay would it take to get you to run into burning buildings?

Depends on the location and position. For example, small Biotech can start at 90k +/- a fair amount depending on location, with big pharma coming in around 110k +/- a fair amount. Regardless, its far less than an average salary of 175k for a firefighter. As per overtime.... as a professional worker you don't get paid hourly; you get paid a salary to complete the work, regardless of how much time it takes.

As per the running into burning buildings... most of those people would do it for free. As for me, I'd say yeah, I could definitely do that for that salary.

Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against firefighters, but 175k average plus a pension? That's absurd.

 

[theheadguy]

Unions have absolutely GUTTED the film biz here in LA.
...
I was in Local 44 for many years, it was a complete joke.
...
Basically at this point, if a TV show is on a network, then any moron who can load boxes into a truck and move couches gets $450/day, with lunch bought. Did I mention the fully paid health benefits? The pension and IRA getting another $3-4/hr? This on top of the $35+/hr.
...

You know, the funny part about anti-union rants (which yours generally is), is that they can always be picked apart when you examine the facts.

I fail to see how because you worked on Power Rangers that you have an educated grasp on unionism in TV/film production. In fact, your entire rant contradicts itself in different aspects.

You claim ignorance as to why it costs money to join the union or what the money is used for, but you paid the $3,000 anyway? Right there your credibility is shot in my book.

Nevertheless, you complain that any "moron who can load boxes into a truck" gets paid $450/day. You're right - sounds high to me, and like a great quality of life for the individual getting paid. What do you think the "moron" is doing with this money? Stashing it away in a Swiss bank account? He's more likely going out to eat, shopping for his family, buying a house -- and recycling the rest into the local economy. If it's true that they are paid that well, it doesn't sound so bad to me. Oh yeah, and god forbid someone gets health insurance from their employer these days.

On top of that, we're supposed to feel bad about his alleged pay of $450/day when he was working for the Power Ranger TV franchise that took in over $75,000,000 for the two films alone? That's not inclusive of the profit from making the show, or the subsequent DVD releases, or the international release of the show, movies, and DVDs.

Lastly, compensation is a mandatory subject of bargaining. No employer would agree to pay someone that amount of money unless it made sense. If they agreed and it didn't make sense, then you should be whining to management instead, because they are the ones who made the bum deal.

Your post smells of someone who lost their job or got kicked out of the industry and now you're just jealous of everyone still in it.

 

[firewood]

Unions are definitely necessary - they can afford to lobby in a system where companies lobby to violate our rights as citizens. Just like organized protesting, sometimes you actually do need a group of people to make problems heard and taken seriously.

And just like organized political protests and large corporations, monopolies should not be allowed. The 1 party system is ripe for abuse. Lots of workers have the opposite political and economic views from those lobbied by "their" union.

Workers at any one company should be allowed their choice of unions to join, and these unions should compete with each other to best represent their workers views, and to best provide the competent workers to their industry.

Given that most unions are against those basic freedoms, they should be decertified.

 

[jonnysods]

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Unions. Thanks for sending manufacturing overseas because companies don't want to pay $35 an hour for a guy to put wheels on a car in North America.