Apple Sued for Blocking Tap-to-Pay Competitors on iPhone

[iManilaEnvelope]

Yep. Competition wants access to apples customers, software and hardware for $0 so they can make $$$ from apples r&d.

Yes. Another way to look at it is "competition" doesn't mean Google or Samsung alone. It doesn't mean $0. But it could mean APPLE doesn't want consumers, producers and mediators to interfere with its own business practices, which a court may find unreasonable. Apparently it's willing to even pay and lose broad advantages for the tactic. You're stuck in this zero-sum I Win-They Lose mindset that has no bearing in antitrust law. Read the complaint. It's totally apparent you have no interest in this article, the complaint, antitrust law, or anything other than thinking Apple is being victimized for being the durable, lasting market leader. I mean, seriously? ATT's board felt the competition was also trying to steal its money and hardware too.

 

[I7guy]

Yes. Another way to look at it is "competition" doesn't mean Google or Samsung alone. It doesn't mean $0. But it could mean APPLE doesn't want consumers, producers and mediators to interfere with its own business practices, which a court may find unreasonable. Apparently it's willing to even pay and lose broad advantages for the tactic. You're stuck in this zero-sum I Win-They Lose mindset that has no bearing in antitrust law. Read the complaint. It's totally apparent you have no interest in this article, the complaint, antitrust law, or anything other than thinking Apple is being victimized for being the durable, lasting market leader. I mean, seriously? ATT's board felt the competition was also trying to steal its money and hardware too.

What matters in the complaint is that the plaintiffs win. Ask Epic. Whether the complaint has legal standing remains to be seen. People throw around the word anti-trust and Apple -- as if it's a given.

 

[Beautyspin]

Rent is rent, friend. If you occupy another’s space with your business, expect to pay for it. Be worried if you’re not expected to pay for it. It’s the way of the world in every single segment, real world or virtual space. I’m sorry it’s a hard concept to grasp for some - but in the real world we need to pay for services offered by others. Apple or not. Whether one likes it or not.

What Is Rent-Seeking Behavior?

Voluntary trade benefits both sides. Unless both parties believe they will benefit from the exchange, they will not consent. In most exchanges both parties can produce the item they are trading more efficiently than they can produce what they are receiving. Producing a surplus of one item...

www.forbes.com

 

[cupcakes2000]

What Is Rent-Seeking Behavior?

Voluntary trade benefits both sides. Unless both parties believe they will benefit from the exchange, they will not consent. In most exchanges both parties can produce the item they are trading more efficiently than they can produce what they are receiving. Producing a surplus of one item...

www.forbes.com

*Laughs into morning cereal*

I knew what you meant, thank you. That doesn’t make you right, unfortunately.

 

[The_Gream]

I haven’t looked at the people in clover in this class action: if any of the US big banks are, it really should be tossed to the wind.

Those banks and their leadership do more harm to the financial sector than anyone else. I haven’t forgotten the housing crash in 2008, or the crap Wells Fargo has pulled. And then Credit card companies and their own mindset of - let’s get people hooked and into debt then rake them over the fire with industry standard interest rates 25+%

P.s. if a Apple is getting a billion a year from this, how much how much money is going through Apple Pay? How much money goes through Google and Samsung?

 

[I7guy]

What Is Rent-Seeking Behavior?

Voluntary trade benefits both sides. Unless both parties believe they will benefit from the exchange, they will not consent. In most exchanges both parties can produce the item they are trading more efficiently than they can produce what they are receiving. Producing a surplus of one item...

www.forbes.com

Doesn’t seem apple falls into the definition this 10 year old argument is trying to convey.

 

[Ethosik]

I'm sure everyone will download Apple Pay, Google Pay, Samsung Pay and then some for... wait, there's no reason to.

You guys really need to look at history of things and if you really think banks/cards or merchants will NOT use exclusively one over another I’m not sure what to say. Heck when Apple Pay was new merchants didn’t utilize it because they wanted you to use their own pay app instead.

 

[webkit]

I haven’t looked at the people in clover in this class action: if any of the US big banks are, it really should be tossed to the wind.

Those banks and their leadership do more harm to the financial sector than anyone else. I haven’t forgotten the housing crash in 2008, or the crap Wells Fargo has pulled. And then Credit card companies and their own mindset of - let’s get people hooked and into debt then rake them over the fire with industry standard interest rates 25+%

P.s. if a Apple is getting a billion a year from this, how much how much money is going through Apple Pay? How much money goes through Google and Samsung?

The lawsuit was initiated by Affinity Credit Union but is open to all payment card issuers that have been charged Apple Pay fees.

The lawsuit's antitrust complaint is basically two-fold:

• Apple has unlawfully linked two of its products – mobile devices and its proprietary mobile wallet – compelling iOS users to exclusively use Apple Pay and foreclosing rival tap-and-pay options.
• Apple unlawfully monopolizes the market for tap-and-pay mobile wallets on iOS. While issuers pay $0 when their cardholders use Android wallets and pay $0 when their cardholders use contactless cards, Apple rakes in billions of dollars from fees from tap-and-pay payments on its platform.

 

[compwiz1202]

I have a bad feeling that this will result in many banks, credit cards, and major retailers (Walmart & Kroger already do a version of this) to require you to use their own app/wallet for payments. Seems like a cluster of an experience for users.

They can "require" all they want, but I'm not going if they don't take AP, as long as another store of the same type does and isn't unreasonablly far.

 

[I7guy]

The lawsuit was initiated by Affinity Credit Union but is open to all payment card issuers that have been charged Apple Pay fees.

The lawsuit's antitrust complaint is basically two-fold:

• Apple has unlawfully linked two of its products – mobile devices and its proprietary mobile wallet – compelling iOS users to exclusively use Apple Pay and foreclosing rival tap-and-pay options.
• Apple unlawfully monopolizes the market for tap-and-pay mobile wallets on iOS. While issuers pay $0 when their cardholders use Android wallets and pay $0 when their cardholders use contactless cards, Apple rakes in billions of dollars from fees from tap-and-pay payments on its platform.

Yep. All they have to do is….win.

 

[AFDoc]

So, as long as there is at least one other option in the market then you feel these types of antitrust lawsuits shouldn't be allowed?

I'm not a lawyer, so I don't have the smarts to know such things, but as a human being, they shouldn't be allowed. If the item you are using doesn't do what you want it to do and another item does.... buy the other item. I've never bought something wishing it did something it didn't. If a particular vendor doesn't take apple pay I pull out my card and don't make it an issue because I'm not a whiny consumer and have better things to worry about than if iPhone can be used to pay for something or not.

 

[webkit]

I'm not a lawyer, so I don't have the smarts to know such things, but as a human being, they shouldn't be allowed. If the item you are using doesn't do what you want it to do and another item does.... buy the other item. I've never bought something wishing it did something it didn't. If a particular vendor doesn't take apple pay I pull out my card and don't make it an issue because I'm not a whiny consumer and have better things to worry about than if iPhone can be used to pay for something or not.

Antitrust regulators try to prevent dominant companies (e.g., part of a duopoly) from having too much control of a market. In the U.S., Apple (with iOS) has about 57% share of the mobile OS market and Google (with Android) has about 43%. Being dominant is not itself illegal but anticompetive behavior by these companies can be.

I assume from your comment that you think the U.S. suit against Microsoft in the 1990s was wrong since there were other options in desktop OS.

 

[Sophisticatednut]

In terms of Apple being a monopoly then I remember it trying to be argued by pystar that Apple had a monopoly on computers running Mac OS.
Was thrown out as was shown that Mac OS is just one of several personal computer offerings on the market and that Mac OS market within the Personal Computer was not a seperate market.

Don’t see how iOS phones within the Mobile Phone market is a seperate market to other mobile phones that are available. There aren’t tasks that can do on iOS phones that cannot do on other phones. Unless you get into very app specific things, which is like saying Apple has a monopoly on FCP X, when there are other apps available that allow you do the same thing as FCP X.

Otherwise where do you draw the line. Are Ford cars seperate to the rest of the car market. Is coca-cola seperate market to the rest of the soft drinks market.

easy.
A Ford or BMW can still use the same oil, same gas, same wheels, same CDs, same tapes etc etc.
there are millions of cross compatible entertainmentssytems, engine plugs, seatbelts, windwipers etc etc

ios phones can only use appstore ios apps. android phones can use any app from any store that chooses to be made available. But android can still only run android apps, it being samsung or Huawei have no menaingful difrence.

coca cola drinks are competing agoinst other softdrinks.

Fun fact. Apple lost their case in Germany as you are still legally allowed to sell Hackintos

 

[Sophisticatednut]

You can gaurantee that is what will happen is that banks will try and force you to use there system.

in USA perhaps. but in EU they aren't allowed to.

who do you think developed the electronic banking ID we use in different nations in EU? And who do you think forces them to be open?

 

[Sophisticatednut]

What if they did? It would be a bad business decision for Apple and it would be bad for Apple's customers to limit access to the camera, but do third party developers really have some "right" to demand access to all the hardware of the phone?

yes they do. apple only prevent acces by banning their ability to sell in the appstore. if the ycould sell outside the store it would be controled by apple.

First it would be compelling Apple to write APIs to support it and second,

Nope, developers would just use existing APIs that apple uses or write new ones bythemselves

it would also compel Apple to maintain hardware compatibility in future phones. What if Apple wanted to remove NFC support from new iPhones and move onto some other proprietary short distance radio technology (maybe UWB) and build an Apple Pay network on that and get retailers onboard with it through custom hardware POS terminals. Would they be forced to keep NFC and support it? At this point you are really only a few steps from Apple being required to support third-party operating systems.

they would not be forced to do anything. Why would they be forced to keep hardware compatibility? they would just be compelled to not prevent access, not to provide support.

 

[Sophisticatednut]

The ebook settlement killed the viability of the Apple ebook store and left us with amazon as a monopoly. Didn't work out well for consumers.

well it was inevetable. would you want us to be stuck with apple as the monopoly instead?

Apple users know that it's a walled garden. We understand and accept that. If we didn't like it, we could use android, but we don't.

Only some of us. Large part accept the good with the bad.

None of the other payment systems offer anything like the privacy protections of Apple Pay...why on earth would someone choose to use them?

well, to start off, Apple Pay might not be available in their country.

 

[I7guy]

well it was inevetable. would you want us to be stuck with apple as the monopoly instead?

Vote with your $$$.

Only some of us. Large part accept the good with the bad.

Apple built a successful business by having a walled garden.

well, to start off, Apple Pay might not be available in their country.

You gotta be in it to win it. Apples legal bills are probably going up every day.

 

[webkit]

Apple built a successful business by having a walled garden.

Every monopoly or duopoly has built successful businesses. The issues comes in if/when they unfairly maintain or build on that success by engaging in anticompetitive behavior that can stifle competition and innovation.

 

[dwaite]

well it was inevetable. would you want us to be stuck with apple as the monopoly instead?

Apple wasn't trying to corner the market; they were trying to change to the same agency model (seller chooses price, apple takes a cut) as they use for apps and other media.

The problem is when you do such discussions with all the biggest players in the publishing industry, where the market has traditionally has let resellers sell at a discount or a loss, it becomes price-fixing. The argument was successfully made that this could lead to an increase in consumer prices.

This was also the last time you really heard of most-favored-nation clauses (e.g. to sell with Apple you have to offer the same or lower price on Apple's store). This is why for instance you see Spotify offer subscriptions more cheaply directly vs through in-app purchase. Now days, Apple (as well as others) negotiate discounts and exclusivities from the publishers using positioning, e.g. you'll likely see more iPhone-exclusive apps and sales in the Today view.

An industry where Apple wasn't convicted would likely not have Apple as a victor, but rather a more homogenous market where prices are basically the same across stores (except for promotional events by an author/publisher).

It was too late for the effect we had with the music market, where Apple's early dominance led to the broad elimination of DRM - Amazon was the one who was dominant, and we had 'reader apps' for third parties to support their own DRM schemes.

Instead, I imagine there would be more pressure to support third party 'reader' apps on all the ebook readers, and we would have more competition on hardware.

 

[rweed]

I use Walmart-Pay all the time on my iPhone.

 

[I7guy]

Every monopoly or duopoly has built successful businesses. The issues comes in if/when they unfairly maintain or build on that success by engaging in anticompetitive behavior that can stifle competition and innovation.

Correct its that pesky “if”, which none of us can determine. We can certainly project our feelings, but it will be up to the courts to see where it goes.

 

[Treq]

I use Walmart-Pay all the time on my iPhone.

I didn‘t even know Walmart still existed. I haven’t seen one in probably 10 years.

 

[Johns12]

I didn‘t even know Walmart still existed. I haven’t seen one in probably 10 years.

You must have some amazing blinders on. There's about 1 every 10 miles down here in Florida

This is from Statista:
Walmart is the largest retail corporation of discount department and warehouse stores in the world. Though it now operates in 26 countries, Walmart had humble beginnings in the 1960s in Bentonville, Arkansas. The retail chain offers low prices and a wide selection of products, which has given Walmart an edge over the competition.

 

[Treq]

You must have some amazing blinders on. There's about 1 every 10 miles down here in Florida

This is from Statista:
Walmart is the largest retail corporation of discount department and warehouse stores in the world. Though it now operates in 26 countries, Walmart had humble beginnings in the 1960s in Bentonville, Arkansas. The retail chain offers low prices and a wide selection of products, which has given Walmart an edge over the competition.

Yeah, not here. Closest one, according to Apple Maps because I had to look it up, is 15 miles away in another town… though I’m not sure that’s accurate because it looks a lot further and I know to get there it will take at least 30 min with light to no traffic... which is rare in socal. More like 45 min. There are at least 3 targets within biking distance from me, a grocery store 3 blocks in one direction, another 5 blocks the opposite direction and even one more 7 blocks away 90° from either of them… and that just the ones from the same chain. There are at least two Trader Joe’s in bike distance (although I just heard they are trying to union bust so I won’t be shopping there for a while) Costco delivers, so I never have to go there anymore… but Walmart, I thought Amazon had put them out of business. Same cheap crap and you don’t have to brave the meme worthy “shoppers of Walmart”. The last time I went in a Walmart was in Florida. I do remember there not being much else to choose from and nothing, and I mean nothing, was in bike range. Just another of the many reasons I would never live there.

 

[Sophisticatednut]

Yeah, not here. Closest one, according to Apple Maps because I had to look it up, is 15 miles away in another town… though I’m not sure that’s accurate because it looks a lot further and I know to get there it will take at least 30 min with light to no traffic... which is rare in socal. More like 45 min. There are at least 3 targets within biking distance from me, a grocery store 3 blocks in one direction, another 5 blocks the opposite direction and even one more 7 blocks away 90° from either of them… and that just the ones from the same chain. There are at least two Trader Joe’s in bike distance (although I just heard they are trying to union bust so I won’t be shopping there for a while) Costco delivers, so I never have to go there anymore… but Walmart, I thought Amazon had put them out of business. Same cheap crap and you don’t have to brave the meme worthy “shoppers of Walmart”. The last time I went in a Walmart was in Florida. I do remember there not being much else to choose from and nothing, and I mean nothing, was in bike range. Just another of the many reasons I would never live there.

damn, you never travel out of town?