When i went laptop shopping this past summer, the apple tax really did play into my decision, i could upgrade a powerbook, or get a cheap, powerful, but not as smooth as a mac. Guess what won out? windows. $900 got me a 2.35ghz chip, 4gig ram, nvidia 9800gtm. better specs, for a fraction of the price. I still use and love OSX, but all the features really didnt play into the decision, therefore, it would be nice if apple bumped specs, and dropped the price a bit. if it had a core i7 chip in it, i would have bought a MBP in a seccond
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"Apple tax" and the current state of the market
- Thread starter Wotan31
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The bottomline for you was you already owned a Mac and felt it sufficient for what you use OS X for, therefore you purchased a Windows-based gaming laptop (I own the same ASUS laptop, upgraded it to add a BD-Combo drive and Windows 7 64bit) for other purposes.
Still doesn't change the fact - if you don't have a Mac or your old Mac can't run an OS X app you need, you buy a Mac, regardless of the features/specs. If OS X isn't desirable or necessary, people will buy a PC.
Why compare at all. One is a Mac, the other isn't! It's like saying I really wish oranges taste like grapes and cost the same as grapes. If you want grapes buy grapes.
What I don't understand is why so many of these threads are posted. Do people feel some sort of empowerment to express their desire for better specs at a lower price? Do they believe Apple will change their business model if enough of these forum threads are created?
It just seems a pointless exercise.
Cheers,
The Folly of Attempting Spec-for-Spec Comparisons
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Many of us know that you can find similar hardware specs that show a PC is priced less. But there are other examples that show a Mac is priced less, more easily found around the Mac Pro. In the end it is impossible to compare prices of a Mac and a PC with the exact same hardware because there are always going to be differences. You can't do "exact same". So, one must then choose to ignore certain differences in order to find some basis for comparison. The problem is what you choose to ignore is very personal and so each person has a different take on "similar" hardware. Plus, I think it's a good idea to avoid getting mired down "in the numbers". There are also qualitative factors to consider and they are always much more difficult to compare.
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Many of us know that you can find similar hardware specs that show a PC is priced less. But there are other examples that show a Mac is priced less, more easily found around the Mac Pro. In the end it is impossible to compare prices of a Mac and a PC with the exact same hardware because there are always going to be differences. You can't do "exact same". So, one must then choose to ignore certain differences in order to find some basis for comparison. The problem is what you choose to ignore is very personal and so each person has a different take on "similar" hardware. Plus, I think it's a good idea to avoid getting mired down "in the numbers". There are also qualitative factors to consider and they are always much more difficult to compare.
"If I just figured this out, surely it's my responsibility to tell other Mac users! If I don't, who will? First I must figure out how... Well, I could always post some stats, and try to show other Mac users that they were certainly foolish to spend so much. Yes, that is what I shall do!"
I also have the same machine / specs and I am 110% happy with the purchase. This purchase was my "switch" computer to boot!
I agree with you completely, the numbers are only one small piece of the puzzle. After all, a 400 hp Porsche is way faster and more capable than a 400 hp Mustang. Also costs a lot more but you get what you pay for.
But technologies like Blu-Ray drives, RAM, and Hard Drives are commodity components - ANY laptop builder can buy these components and incorporate them into their design. These are not parts that are designed "in house" by the laptop vendors, and consequently they don't require any R&D to implement. They simply require OS drivers and the willingness of the vendor to offer these parts.
CPU and GPU require a logic board re-design of course, and while most vendors rely heavily on reference designs, Apple does it their own way and of course that takes longer, this is understandable.
Like others here, I'm in it for the OSX, that's where all my applications run, so Windows is not even an option for me. It's just frustrating to be many months behind the hardware technology curve.
There are no 9.5mm bluray slot loading drives, so unless we are fine with a slightly thicker design, there won't be bluray in a Mac laptop anytime soon.
We all know the thermal limits on Mac laptops are tight, also limiting the CPU & GPU choices. From the tone of these threads it sounds like many Mac users might be ok with a "performance model that is thicker and heavier as long as it has the latest components". Just doesn't seem Apple-like to me.
For now we must accept and move on. When a system comes along that is very compelling and still runs OS X we can sell our existing Macs for a great price used and buy a new one.
I resigned myself to buying the best Mac I can for what I need and living with the compromise... because living 100% with Windows is not an option!
Cheers
You are right about new CPUs, GPU's, blu ray etc. Still, if Apple wanted they could bump the minimum RAM to 4gb and HDD capacity to 250 or 320. It would hardly raise the cost per laptop 30 bucks and I wouldnt mind paying it. Of course then much less people would buy the 2.53 13" model and settle with the cheaper, less powerful one.
Why doesn't it seem Apple-like? This constant push to make everything "thinner" is just idiotic. If you want thin and light, there is the Macbook Air. If you want kind of thinnish and still pretty light, there's the Macbook, and if you want maximum power, there's the Macbook Pro. That's the way it should be, at least. Except that the Macbook Pro has also fallen victim to this "shave off every possibly millimeter" craze to be thin. I'd gladly take a few mm thicker to have the top performing mobile components.
You forgot Story #3.
User buys laptop in Story #2 and replaces Win (XP/Vista/7) with Hackintosh.
I am sure there are people with the time and courage to go through this. Sadly I am not one of them.
I had a hackontosh, acer 5610, it took me DAYS to get it all set up and running. not to mention not everything didnt work.
creating a hackontosh is really for those with a sandbox machine, i would not recommend it as a main computer.
not worth it. buy the real thing, it just works so much better.
The simple fact is that Apple refreshes specs less often. I'm always surprised that people here don't grasp that. They are not like Dell with a smorgasboard of options that changes daily, and they don't try to be. Most other mfgrs try to imitate Dell, so Apple is left looking different. Whining and screaming on internet forums won't really alter their schedule, so not sure why people bother.
The best time to buy an Apple is right after a refresh. Either you get the brand new model with new features, or you get the previous gen from the refurb store with a price drop. Whichever fits your needs. (just stay away from 1st gen)
Please close this thread...nothing but flame thread starters
Sorry, but threads like these are tired and useless.
Apple will not drastically drop their prices, pundits have been clamoring for price drops for years. You want a price drop, buy a refurb from apple.
Their refurbs are great quality, looks almost new, and still come with the same 1 year warranty.
And Specs will eventually catch up, besides do you really need a quad core laptop?
As another poster stated if I want power, I'l have it as desktop.
I confirm that the "apple tax" is alive and well, but is a non issue for me.
I like Mac products as they simply work, excellent design, and I feel the overall value for my money is spot on.
If you don't like the price dont buy, let your spending power be your voice.
I on the other hand will enjoy my apple products.
These kinds of threads do nothing but initiatie flame rants from both sides.
And considering this is a mac forum, why bother starting a discussion over something you know wont change? Apple has dropped their prices as much as they are willing.
My 2 cents.
Sorry, but threads like these are tired and useless.
Apple will not drastically drop their prices, pundits have been clamoring for price drops for years. You want a price drop, buy a refurb from apple.
Their refurbs are great quality, looks almost new, and still come with the same 1 year warranty.
And Specs will eventually catch up, besides do you really need a quad core laptop?
As another poster stated if I want power, I'l have it as desktop.
I confirm that the "apple tax" is alive and well, but is a non issue for me.
I like Mac products as they simply work, excellent design, and I feel the overall value for my money is spot on.
If you don't like the price dont buy, let your spending power be your voice.
I on the other hand will enjoy my apple products.
These kinds of threads do nothing but initiatie flame rants from both sides.
And considering this is a mac forum, why bother starting a discussion over something you know wont change? Apple has dropped their prices as much as they are willing.
My 2 cents.
Amen. As a recent PC to Mac convert, it's the little things that have stood out to me, far more than the hardware specs.
Is there a huge difference in system performance between my new MBP and my previous (HP) laptop? No more so than I'd expect from a similarly specc'd PC at half the price. That said... is there a huge difference in overall experience? Hell, yes.
It's the things like the trackpad (after two days, I was already in the mindset of "I have no idea how I'd live without it"), the aluminium surface (I've never had a laptop so easy to keep clean and mark-free), and the layout and style of the keyboard (80% of my day is spent in extensive work-related typing, and an ergonomically comfortable keyboard is essential; I've gone through a good half-dozen laptops prior to this one, and never once found a keyboard that was so intuitive and so comfortable to use right out of the box). I'll wholeheartedly concede that the ergonomics of a laptop keyboard is going to be a matter of personal preference... but, again, for me specifically, it's one of the things I'd count among the machine's value. Similarly, the little safety catch on the capslock button that prevents you accidentally switching it on if you knock it, the ability to check background applications with a quick four-finger swipe, the light sensor and automatic backlighting of the keyboard... the list goes on...
As subjective as those things are, they're all part and parcel of the experience (as are, I'm sure, a bunch of other things that don't matter to me but do matter to others); I've made the point of not even mentioning OS X here, 'cause enough others have mentioned it, and it kind of goes without saying. But my point is, the benefits of a Mac, at least in my admittedly Mac!newbie-ish experience, go way way way beyond mere hardware specs.
In everyone of these threads I mention that the comparisons are just not fair. There is no real way to gauge the Apple Tax. Depending on what type of computer we are talking about depends the rate of the Apple Tax.
It's here, but - like it's been suggested, there's nothing that one can do.
It's here, but - like it's been suggested, there's nothing that one can do.
Perhaps the small but vocal minority that desires a performance Mac with the latest features even if it's a bit larger, thicker and heavier should take a page from the folks who got Jericho renewed after it was cancelled. Since a bunch of forum posts won't even get Steve Job's assistant's assistant's attention, I suggest everyone who wants better specs send Steve a bag of nuts to express their frustration and unwillingness to bow to Apple's demand that they buy inferior hardware specs to get a superior design and user experience.
In this way the minority can demonstrate it's enormous size and breadth without spending a fortune on lobbyists or waste more time with forum posts that will never be seen by the people who can actually do something. With over 20 tons of peanuts sent to CBS during the "nuts" campaign, CBS had to take notice and respond to the fans agreeing to order an additional 6 episodes and saying more would follow if the rabid fans would get more viewers. Fans got their 6 episodes but in the end there were not enough to keep it on the air.
Something like this will prove one way or the other whether there is truly enough demand for a slightly larger Mac laptop if Apple were to create one. Perhaps by offering a special edition version and if that sold really well they would continue to make a high end alternative.
So you see, all the energy being but into creating and responding to forum posts about dream Mac, spec comparisons with PCs and why and why not it's a good or bad idea could be given over to doing something tangible to get their point across.
Of course Steve could just say thanks for all the nuts and offer free bags of peanuts to all employees for the next two years.
Cheers,
Is it just me or is the MBP well overdue for a refresh? All the PC competitors are selling much faster hardware for 1/2 the price!!
For example, I just went to HP.com and built a dv7t laptop with the following specs, for a grand total of $1695:
Genuine Windows 7 Home Premium 64-bit
Intel(R) Core(TM) i7-720QM Processor (1.6GHz, 6MB L2 Cache, 1333MHz FSB)
50% OFF! 8GB DDR3 System Memory (2 Dimm)
1TB 7200RPM SATA Dual Hard Drive (500GB x 2) with HP ProtectSmart Hard Drive Protection
1GB Nvidia GeForce GT 230M
17.3" diagonal HD+ High-Definition HP LED BrightView Widescreen Display (1600 x 900)
Lightscribe Blu-Ray ROM with SuperMulti DVD+/-R/RW Double Layer
Webcam Only
Intel Wireless-N Mini-card
Apple doesn't even have anything close to this high-end hardware and yet the 17" MBP still costs nearly $1000 more!
- Core i7? Nope, still the old C2D.
- 8 GB memory option for $250? Keep dreaming, Apple wants $600 for this.
- 1 TB of storage? No way, only 1 HDD, not even any option to exchange the optical drive for a 2nd.
- 1 GB Nvidia GT 230M? Not even close, crusty old (and defective) Geforce 9xxx series.
- 17" LED display? Ok, we do have that one.
- Blu-Ray? No not yet, only CD/DVD still.
So what's my point? I'd really like to replace my Core 2 Duo MBP from 2007, but the current 2009 MBP is still a C2D and has roughly the same specs as my old one!! They really need to get with the times here. If they're going to charge a premium price for their hardware, at least offer some premium hardware. Whenever they come out with a new MBP, for the price Apple charges, it better be well *above* the specs of this HP, not just even with it. /rant.
This is all true, and I agree that Apple should add more power to their laptops for the people who need it. I would think that most wouldn't, say, 50% of people who own MBPs don't need the power most of the time (myself included, although it helps with VMs...)
I'd like to bring up a couple things that HP can never do with the current specs in their dv7t:
-7-8 hours (~4 hours in reality) battery life
-4.5-6.6 lbs
-1 inch thin
-huge multitouch glass trackpad
That being put out there, I'd like to see non-C2D chips in at least the high-end MBPs the next time around!
Is it just me or is the MBP well overdue for a refresh? All the PC competitors are selling much faster hardware for 1/2 the price!!
For example, I just went to HP.com and built a dv7t laptop with the following specs, for a grand total of $1695:
Genuine Windows 7 Home Premium 64-bit
Intel(R) Core(TM) i7-720QM Processor (1.6GHz, 6MB L2 Cache, 1333MHz FSB)
50% OFF! 8GB DDR3 System Memory (2 Dimm)
1TB 7200RPM SATA Dual Hard Drive (500GB x 2) with HP ProtectSmart Hard Drive Protection
1GB Nvidia GeForce GT 230M
17.3" diagonal HD+ High-Definition HP LED BrightView Widescreen Display (1600 x 900)
Lightscribe Blu-Ray ROM with SuperMulti DVD+/-R/RW Double Layer
Webcam Only
Intel Wireless-N Mini-card
Apple doesn't even have anything close to this high-end hardware and yet the 17" MBP still costs nearly $1000 more!
- Core i7? Nope, still the old C2D.
- 8 GB memory option for $250? Keep dreaming, Apple wants $600 for this.
- 1 TB of storage? No way, only 1 HDD, not even any option to exchange the optical drive for a 2nd.
- 1 GB Nvidia GT 230M? Not even close, crusty old (and defective) Geforce 9xxx series.
- 17" LED display? Ok, we do have that one.
- Blu-Ray? No not yet, only CD/DVD still.
So what's my point? I'd really like to replace my Core 2 Duo MBP from 2007, but the current 2009 MBP is still a C2D and has roughly the same specs as my old one!! They really need to get with the times here. If they're going to charge a premium price for their hardware, at least offer some premium hardware. Whenever they come out with a new MBP, for the price Apple charges, it better be well *above* the specs of this HP, not just even with it. /rant.
How heavy is that laptop? and long does the battery last? People who buy apple buy for the OS, and a lot of people buy for the aesthetics. I bet that laptop is butt ugly.