Apple Tax does not seem to be applicable for MacBook Pro 16"

[MacLappy]

I have been using the 2015 Razer Blade 14" for quite awhile now and only recently ungraded to the MacBook Pro 16". I went for the higher tier base MacBook Pro 16" as I was able to find one at a really good price of SG$3350, MSRP SG$3999. I tired configuring both a Dell XPS 15 and Lenovo Thinkpad Extreme Gen 2 and both of them were quite similar in price to the MacBook Pro.

Dell XPS 15, MSRP SG$3999, after online discount SG$3499. i7 processor, 4K screen.
Lenovo Thinkpad Extreme Gen 2, MSRP SG$4239, after online discount SG$3351. i7 processor, Full HD screen.

Considering that the MacBook Pro 16" has considerably better specifications such as an i9 intel processor, T2 chip, Touch Bar, 6 speaker sound system, studio quality 3 mic array, 11 hours of battery life, unibody design, bigger True Tone display with better screen aspect ration of 16:10, better after sales service, better resale value, the ability to run both operating system(macOS Catalina/Windows 10) and most importantly compounding benefits for anyone who is deep in apple's eco system, I do wonder if perhaps Apple's offering might be the better "priced" proposition among premium laptops today.

P.S. I included the unibody design as I do appreciated them on both the Apple MacBook Pro and The Razer Blade, had a couple of plastic laptops before and much prefer the unibody experience. Mostly because it feels so good in the hands but also because the metal construct seems to act like a giant heat dissipator which feels easier to cool compared to the plastic builds, noticeable difference on my cooling pad helping to maintain maximum FPS while gaming.

(MacBook Pro 16"[i9 2.3GHz,16gb ram, 5500m 4gb, 1Tb SSD], running on macOS Catalina, Cooler Master ergo series cooling pad on highest elevation setting and max fan speed, World of Warcraft, Battle of Azeroth, ultra settings, 1920x1200 on external monitor, FPS capped at 60FPS as monitor is only 60Hz, 39-48FPS without cooling pad, 60FPS with cooling pad, both temp taken after about an hour of gaming, in game location - Boralus, ambience temp in room about 30 degree celsius, watching Netflix on MacBook Pro 16" display)

 

[Viamusic10000]

I have been using the 2015 Razer Blade 14" for quite awhile now and only recently ungraded to the MacBook Pro 16". I went for the higher tier base MacBook Pro 16" as I was able to find one at a really good price of SG$3350, MSRP SG$3999. I tired configuring both a Dell XPS 15 and Lenovo Thinkpad Extreme Gen 2 and both of them were quite similar in price to the MacBook Pro.

Dell XPS 15, MSRP SG$3999, after online discount SG$3499. i7 processor, 4K screen.
Lenovo Thinkpad Extreme Gen 2, MSRP SG$4239, after online discount SG$3351. i7 processor, Full HD screen.

Considering that the MacBook Pro 16" has considerably better specifications such as an i9 intel processor, T2 chip, Touch Bar, 6 speaker sound system, studio quality 3 mic array, 11 hours of battery life, unibody design, bigger True Tone display with better screen aspect ration of 16:10, better after sales service, better resale value, the ability to run both operating system(macOS Catalina/Windows 10) and most importantly compounding benefits for anyone who is deep in apple's eco system, I do wonder if perhaps Apple's offering might be the better "priced" proposition among premium laptops today.

P.S. I included the unibody design as I do appreciated them on both the Apple MacBook Pro and The Razer Blade, had a couple of plastic laptops before and much prefer the unibody experience. Mostly because it feels so good in the hands but also because the metal construct seems to act like a giant heat dissipator which feels easier to cool compared to the plastic builds, noticeable difference on my cooling pad helping to maintain maximum FPS while gaming.

(MacBook Pro 16"[i9 2.3GHz,16gb ram, 5500m 4gb, 1Tb SSD], running on macOS Catalina, Cooler Master ergo series cooling pad on highest elevation setting and max fan speed, World of Warcraft, Battle of Azeroth, ultra settings, 1920x1200 on external monitor, FPS capped at 60FPS as monitor is only 60Hz, 39-48FPS without cooling pad, 60FPS with cooling pad, both temp taken after about an hour of gaming, in game location - Boralus, ambience temp in room about 30 degree celsius, watching Netflix on MacBook Pro 16" display)

The T2 is not a positive tbh. It would be if it functioned properly but its still objectively bad because of all the bugs it brings with it. And yes all OEM's charge a lot for ram upgrades but the x1 and 15 are user upgradeable whereas the MacBook is not.

 

[smbu2000]

They are a bit better priced now thanks to the increase in storage capacity with the introduction of the 16" MBP, giving the base model 512GB and the upper tier model 1TB of storage.

Most of the PCs that I’ve seen tend to ship with the 6core i7 CPUs like in the base model MBP. My early 2019 15" Razer Blade Advanced came with an 8th gen 6core i7 CPU. I’m guessing that is to save some power for the GPU as it came with an rtx 2080 max q. That handily beats the rx555 in my base 2019 15" MBP, but I’d imagine the GPUs in the 16” MBP perform much better.

The 16:9 screen does feel squished after using 16:10 screens for so long and 1080p is not as crisp as the MBP retina display, the 144hz makes up in other ways though.
It was easy enough to upgrade the Razer to 32GB of RAM and a 1TB Samsung 960 Pro nvme drive though.

I need to see if I can find a good deal on a 16” MBP to replace my 15” MBP or wait until the 16” gets refreshed sometime this year.

 

[russell_314]

The T2 is not a positive tbh. It would be if it functioned properly but its still objectively bad because of all the bugs it brings with it. And yes all OEM's charge a lot for ram upgrades but the x1 and 15 are user upgradeable whereas the MacBook is not.

I have no issues with the T2 chip on my Mac. I think the problem with something like that is no one makes a post saying it’s working perfectly. If somebody has a problem they complain about it so it makes it look like everyone has a problem but in reality it’s a small percentage.

 

[Viamusic10000]

I have no issues with the T2 chip on my Mac. I think the problem with something like that is no one makes a post saying it’s working perfectly. If somebody has a problem they complain about it so it makes it look like everyone has a problem but in reality it’s a small percentage.

Well no it’s not. Every single unit has the popping (if you think you don’t have it you’re wrong - change audio midi sampling back to 44Khz and try tapping the scrubber repeatedly on a YouTube video) and that is more likely than not related to the T2 chips power management function of turning off the speakers when you don’t need them. Bad magic kernel panics are very common and their lack of occurrence is probably dependent on use case and not the T2 chip functioning well. The T2 chip is objectively bad and Apple has ignored all its glaring flaws. Maybe they will fix it, but they probably won’t.

 

[russell_314]

Well no it’s not. Every single unit has the popping (if you think you don’t have it you’re wrong - change audio midi sampling back to 44Khz and try tapping the scrubber repeatedly on a YouTube video) and that is more likely than not related to the T2 chips power management function of turning off the speakers when you don’t need them. Bad magic kernel panics are very common and their lack of occurrence is probably dependent on use case and not the T2 chip functioning well. The T2 chip is objectively bad and Apple has ignored all its glaring flaws. Maybe they will fix it, but they probably won’t.

I don’t try to purposely make errors happen but in my day-to-day use to include YouTube, I have zero issues with anything including the T2 chip. I can’t remember the last time I had an issue. Maybe the keyword here is objectively. It’s objectively bad for you but not objectively bad for me.

 

[bsamcash]

Well no it’s not. Every single unit has the popping (if you think you don’t have it you’re wrong - change audio midi sampling back to 44Khz and try tapping the scrubber repeatedly on a YouTube video) and that is more likely than not related to the T2 chips power management function of turning off the speakers when you don’t need them. Bad magic kernel panics are very common and their lack of occurrence is probably dependent on use case and not the T2 chip functioning well. The T2 chip is objectively bad and Apple has ignored all its glaring flaws. Maybe they will fix it, but they probably won’t.

Umm what? Never experienced any of this and never heard of any issues with the T2 chip.

 

[fuchsdh]

Well no it’s not. Every single unit has the popping (if you think you don’t have it you’re wrong - change audio midi sampling back to 44Khz and try tapping the scrubber repeatedly on a YouTube video) and that is more likely than not related to the T2 chips power management function of turning off the speakers when you don’t need them. Bad magic kernel panics are very common and their lack of occurrence is probably dependent on use case and not the T2 chip functioning well. The T2 chip is objectively bad and Apple has ignored all its glaring flaws. Maybe they will fix it, but they probably won’t.

I don't think "objectively" means what you think it means.

 

[Viamusic10000]

I don’t try to purposely make errors happen but in my day-to-day use to include YouTube, I have zero issues with anything including the T2 chip. I can’t remember the last time I had an issue. Maybe the keyword here is objectively. It’s objectively bad for you but not objectively bad for me.

Right but my point is if you switch it back to 44Khz it doesn’t work as intended. So the T2 is causing issues on every unit and so far within a month of ownership I had a bad magic kernel panic on my 16in. Just because you aren’t having issues with it doesn’t mean it’s not an engineering failure if it’s causing issues for a ton of other people.

Umm what? Never experienced any of this and never heard of any issues with the T2 chip.

Then you haven’t been paying attention. They’ve been been happening since 2018 with kernel panics on the iMac Pro and there is a large thread about bridge os kernel panics. Here’s a new one of the support forums:

https://discussions.apple.com/thread/250826263?page=16

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I don't think "objectively" means what you think it means.

I think it does. It’s objectively bad because it’s still unstable and causing audio issues you’d expect to find on poor windows audio drivers. https://forums.macrumors.com/thread...ay-issue.2221116/?post=28186636#post-28186636 what would you call this?

 

[bsamcash]

Then you haven’t been paying attention. They’ve been been happening since 2018 with kernel panics on the iMac Pro and there is a large thread about bridge os kernel panics. Here’s a new one of the support forums:

https://discussions.apple.com/thread/250826263?page=16

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That first post is from Nov 5, 2019.

 

[Viamusic10000]

That first post is from Nov 5, 2019.

Right, and the thread is being posted in daily with updates. If you read my comment this is a recent thread. This is an article about the oldest reports https://www.macrumors.com/2018/07/26/apple-looking-into-t2-kernel-panic-reports/. My point is the issue is still happening. I’ve had a bad magic crash within a month of ownership

 

[russell_314]

Right but my point is if you switch it back to 44Khz it doesn’t work as intended. So the T2 is causing issues on every unit and so far within a month of ownership I had a bad magic kernel panic on my 16in. Just because you aren’t having issues with it doesn’t mean it’s not an engineering failure if it’s causing issues for a ton of other people.



Then you haven’t been paying attention. They’ve been been happening since 2018 with kernel panics on the iMac Pro and there is a large thread about bridge os kernel panics. Here’s a new one of the support forums:

https://discussions.apple.com/thread/250826263?page=16

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[automerge]1580609043[/automerge]

I think it does. It’s objectively bad because it’s still unstable and causing audio issues you’d expect to find on poor windows audio drivers. https://forums.macrumors.com/thread...ay-issue.2221116/?post=28186636#post-28186636 what would you call this?

As I said I don’t try to purposely make errors happen but in my day to day use the T2 chip causes me zero issues. When I say zero issues I mean if it wasn't for the occasional post in the forms mentioning about how terrible it is I probably wouldn't even think about it. I'm not saying the T2 chip isn't causing you problems or a negative to you. I'm saying it's not causing me problems and for security I consider it a positive.

 

[Viamusic10000]

As I said I don’t try to purposely make errors happen but in my day to day use the T2 chip causes me zero issues. When I say zero issues I mean if it wasn't for the occasional post in the forms mentioning about how terrible it is I probably wouldn't even think about it. I'm not saying the T2 chip isn't causing you problems or a negative to you. I'm saying it's not causing me problems and for security I consider it a positive.

Right but since it causes so many issues for many people it’s objectively poor engineering.

 

[MacLappy]

It was easy enough to upgrade the Razer to 32GB of RAM and a 1TB Samsung 960 Pro nvme drive though.

I need to see if I can find a good deal on a 16” MBP to replace my 15” MBP or wait until the 16” gets refreshed sometime this year.

Oooo, I do have a 2015 Razer Blade 14", never knew the ram was upgradable. Having said that, 16gb is enough for me.
I did think of upgrading the ssd to 1TB and would very much like to replace the battery(can only do about 4 hours on battery compared to about 6 hours brand new, same kind of work load), but am afraid of damaging the notebook in the process.

 

[smbu2000]

Oooo, I do have a 2015 Razer Blade 14", never knew the ram was upgradable. Having said that, 16gb is enough for me.
I did think of upgrading the ssd to 1TB and would very much like to replace the battery(can only do about 4 hours on battery compared to about 6 hours brand new, same kind of work load), but am afraid of damaging the notebook in the process.

You might need to check for your specific system. My 15” has two RAM slots, but before that I was using 13” Razer Blade Stealth machines and both of those I used (2016 model and 2018 model) had soldered RAM. 8gb in the 2016 and 16gb in the 2018. Only the SSD was could be swapped out.

If you can upgrade a 32gb set (2x16gb) is priced pretty reasonably though in the $100-$130 range doing a quick check at Amazon.

 

[Camarillo Brillo]

Well no it’s not. Every single unit has the popping (if you think you don’t have it you’re wrong - change audio midi sampling back to 44Khz and try tapping the scrubber repeatedly on a YouTube video) and that is more likely than not related to the T2 chips power management function of turning off the speakers when you don’t need them. Bad magic kernel panics are very common and their lack of occurrence is probably dependent on use case and not the T2 chip functioning well. The T2 chip is objectively bad and Apple has ignored all its glaring flaws. Maybe they will fix it, but they probably won’t.

I tried this to see if I could hear the popping, since I’ve never noticed it myself. I did make sure the sample rate was set to 44.1. No popping in YouTube.
That’s not to say I haven’t had other minor issues but the audio popping has not been one of them.

 

[MacLappy]

You might need to check for your specific system. My 15” has two RAM slots, but before that I was using 13” Razer Blade Stealth machines and both of those I used (2016 model and 2018 model) had soldered RAM. 8gb in the 2016 and 16gb in the 2018. Only the SSD was could be swapped out.

Yup the 2015 Razer Blade 14" has soldered Ram too.

 

[Viamusic10000]

I tried this to see if I could hear the popping, since I’ve never noticed it myself. I did make sure the sample rate was set to 44.1. No popping in YouTube.
That’s not to say I haven’t had other minor issues but the audio popping has not been one of them.

Popping depends on browser and probably video encoding. Try different videos and repeatedly press the scrubber. You can get some pretty loud pops doing that.

 

[Camarillo Brillo]

I agree with the other guy who said he doesn’t go out looking for problems with the computer. As far as I’m concerned it’s a non issue for me. If I have to try a different browser and mess with settings to even get it to happen... whatever I can wait until Apple fixes it with a software update, it’s obviously not affecting me.

 

[Viamusic10000]

I agree with the other guy who said he doesn’t go out looking for problems with the computer. As far as I’m concerned it’s a non issue for me. If I have to try a different browser and mess with settings to even get it to happen... whatever I can wait until Apple fixes it with a software update, it’s obviously not affecting me.

The underlying issue is not playing well with some apps I have (like Musescore) and the speakers can repeatedly pop and crackle when audio is played in a third party. Changing the sampling rate in windows apparently doesn’t fix the issue but it does in Mac OS so we have no idea what’s going on. Anyway my point is id prefer security to be handled by intel and have the awesome speakers work flawlessly and avoid random crashes than have the T2 at this point. I want Mac OS and these issues aren’t dealbreakers but they are annoying and shouldn’t be there. Otherwise the laptop is great.

 

[Sanpete]

The T2 is not a positive tbh. It would be if it functioned properly but its still objectively bad because of all the bugs it brings with it. And yes all OEM's charge a lot for ram upgrades but the x1 and 15 are user upgradeable whereas the MacBook is not.

When there are bugs, why do you blame the chip? Do you also blame the i7 and i9 for the bugs associated with the latest Mac OS?

 

[Viamusic10000]

When there are bugs, why do you blame the chip? Do you also blame the i7 and i9 for the bugs associated with the latest Mac OS?

The audio bugs only seem to be happening on T2 Macs and we know the T2 has control over the DAC and speakers for power management so no one knows for sure what the issue is but its just an inference based on these facts. Same thing with the kernel panics happening during sleep or when connecting peripherals. No one knows anything for certain but I think its probably the T2 firmware.

 

[Sanpete]

The audio bugs only seem to be happening on T2 Macs and we know the T2 has control over the DAC and speakers for power management so no one knows for sure what the issue is but its just an inference based on these facts. Same thing with the kernel panics happening during sleep or when connecting peripherals. No one knows anything for certain but I think its probably the T2 firmware.

Yes, of course, but the vast majority of Mac bugs, firmware or OS, are running on the other chips, but no one is blaming the chips. Seems to me to make more sense to blame the software for what appear to be very useful chips.

 

[Viamusic10000]

Yes, of course, but the vast majority of Mac bugs, firmware or OS, are running on the other chips, but no one is blaming the chips. Seems to me to make more sense to blame the software for what appear to be very useful chips.

I guess its more proper to blame the firmware because yes if the T2 was working better it be a nice feature with additional security. All I mean is I wouldn't consider it a positive over security being handled by intel on the Razer or whatever. I still bought the 16 in lol.

 

[MacLappy]

The T2 is not a positive tbh. It would be if it functioned properly but its still objectively bad because of all the bugs it brings with it. And yes all OEM's charge a lot for ram upgrades but the x1 and 15 are user upgradeable whereas the MacBook is not.

Well no it’s not. Every single unit has the popping (if you think you don’t have it you’re wrong - change audio midi sampling back to 44Khz and try tapping the scrubber repeatedly on a YouTube video) and that is more likely than not related to the T2 chips power management function of turning off the speakers when you don’t need them. Bad magic kernel panics are very common and their lack of occurrence is probably dependent on use case and not the T2 chip functioning well. The T2 chip is objectively bad and Apple has ignored all its glaring flaws. Maybe they will fix it, but they probably won’t.

The underlying issue is not playing well with some apps I have (like Musescore) and the speakers can repeatedly pop and crackle when audio is played in a third party. Changing the sampling rate in windows apparently doesn’t fix the issue but it does in Mac OS so we have no idea what’s going on. Anyway my point is id prefer security to be handled by intel and have the awesome speakers work flawlessly and avoid random crashes than have the T2 at this point. I want Mac OS and these issues aren’t dealbreakers but they are annoying and shouldn’t be there. Otherwise the laptop is great.

I guess its more proper to blame the firmware because yes if the T2 was working better it be a nice feature with additional security. All I mean is I wouldn't consider it a positive over security being handled by intel on the Razer or whatever. I still bought the 16 in lol.

Thank you for bringing this up, I learned a lot today! I'll read through the suggested post that you put up, regarding kernel panics, popping/crackling sound issues and also the lack of ability to go back to a pervious version of macOS because of the T2 chip. It must be quite frustrating since you do have an apps that don't play well with it, especially since this is suppose to be the latest and greatest laptop from the company that touts the slogan, "it just works" for years.

Having say that, I personally, like many others who have responded on this thread, do not seem to suffer from the same problems. No kernel panics, no popping/crackling sound while watching videos on YouTube or Netflix or while scrubbing through the timeline on Final Cut Pro X. In the last 2 weeks of using the Macbook Pro 16", everything has been peachy.

The main reason why I love the T2 chip is easy access even when I am not wearing my Apple Watch, which happens more often than not, while I am at home.

- Ease of logging in after entering sleep mode
- Ease of accessing administrator privilege
- Easy access of Apple Keychain

I was also aware that T2 chip quicken encoding of videos in certain codec.

Things that I learn today.

- T2 chip prevents hacking into the Mac even from side channel attacks, such as the cold boot attack. It shift responsibility for security-critical aspects of Mac hardware out of the hands of the CPU and traditional computing components—where they can be subject to hacks and malfeasance—into a “secure enclave,” a separate environment inaccessible to hacks, malware, and even hardware-based security risks.
- T2 chip grants instant data encryption over FileVault, a process that use to require many hours, depending on how much data you have on your storage.
- T2 chip image signal processor allows for better FaceTime HD performance.
- T2 chip powers, hands free "Hey Siri".
- T2 chip audio controller contributes to better sound quality, for both the speakers and the mic.
- T2 chip physically disables the mic on the Mac when the lid is close, effectively defeating potential remote surveillance hacks.
- T2 act as independent co-processors, enhancing performance by handling common tasks for the Mac and enabling the CPU to focus on other things.

The list is by no means exhaustive, but I dare say it seems to be a pretty good thing to have, rather than not.