Apple "tax"? Really?

[Robert McNewbie]

A week ago I purchased my first Mac. That is a 2018 MBP 8/256 (price $1799). I got here after I decided that I am ready to pay the so called Apple "tax" to get a mac OS device along with the beautiful 16:10 true tone display and best trackpad (+ aluminium case ). I've been using Windows for ever and I thought that if my experience with mac OS ends bad I can run Windows on it anyway.
Yesterday google shows up a 5* laptop review so I had to read it since my MBB got on average 4* reviews. This review was about a Dell XPS 13. So I configured a $1799 Dell XPS 13 9370 that has:

• Display area: 5% smaller than the mac's and is 16:9 ratio while mac has 16:10.
• CPU core I7 8550U: rated lower than mac's CPU
• GPU Intel 620: slower, less memory than mac's 655
• SSD: slower than mac's
• It does not run macOS, the mac does run Windows
• No touch bar
• Bluetooth version: 4.1 the mac has v 5.0
• No Dell shop around me, there are two apple premium resellers within walking distance.

Im I missing something or people are paying a Dell "tax"?

There is "one more thing": Airdrop is so cool! (Yes, I have an old iPhone)

 

[apiro]

A week ago I purchased my first Mac. That is a 2018 MBP 8/256 (price $1799). I got here after I decided that I am ready to pay the so called Apple "tax" to get a mac OS device along with the beautiful 16:10 true tone display and best trackpad (+ aluminium case ). I've been using Windows for ever and I thought that if my experience with mac OS ends bad I can run Windows on it anyway.
Yesterday google shows up a 5* laptop review so I had to read it since my MBB got on average 4* reviews. This review was about a Dell XPS 13. So I configured a $1799 Dell XPS 13 9370 that has:

• Display area: 5% smaller than the mac's and is 16:9 ratio while mac has 16:10.
• CPU core I7 8550U: rated lower than mac's CPU
• GPU Intel 620: slower, less memory than mac's 655
• SSD: slower than mac's
• It does not run macOS, the mac does run Windows
• No touch bar
• Bluetooth version: 4.1 the mac has v 5.0
• No Dell shop around me, there are two apple premium resellers within walking distance.

Im I missing something or people are paying a Dell "tax"?

There is "one more thing": Airdrop is so cool! (Yes, I have an old iPhone)

Well, I guess when you say you configured $1799 Dell XPS 13 9370 you mean $1649 Dell XPS 13 touch 9370.

- Mac 1.37 kg > Dell 1.21 kg
- Mac 304.1x212.4x14.9mm > Dell 302x199x7.8-11.6mm
- Mac aluminium < Dell carbon fiber
- Mac i5-8259U < Dell i7-8550U (they're of different class so their direct comparison makes little sense but inside their own class Mac's i5 is lower than Dell's i7 is; but even comparing them directly i7 will have better TurboBoost)
- Mac non-touch < Dell touch
- Mac 2.5K < Dell 4K display
- Mac huge edges < Dell no-edge display
- Mac macOS cannot be refunded < Dell's Windows can be refunded - here's more discount; there are so much bugs in macOS lately than even Linux might be regarded by some people to be superior than macOS
- Mac everything soldered < Dell's everything replaceable (and the fact Dell SSD is slightly slower than Mac's won't make any difference in real-world usage)
- Mac is not optimised for Windows < Dell is
- Mac touch bar is considered a bad thing by a lot of people

So at least 10% (with Windows refunded - more; with cashback directly from Dell - even more) Apple tax for inferior machine with keyboard that breaks, with kernel panics not fixed for more than half a year, with components non-replaceable (so add AppleCare cost here) etc etc etc.

 

[haralds]

Most people compare to systems with inferior specs and hardware quality.

I have found Apple products to have a longer usable life cycle for me further lowering the actual depreciated cost of ownership.

Never mind the ecosystem and services and actual joy of using the product. I also use Android and Windows, but do not enjoy the experience.

 

[Audit13]

Windows 10 can be installed on many 8 year old laptops and desktops without having to patch the os beforehand but you can't say the same for MacOS. This means having to buy a new machine with everything soldered in place or a used MacBook with only a replaceable SSD.

Is having everything soldered to the motherboard part of the Apple tax?

 

[doitdada]

You can't really compare a Mac to a PC or vice versa, but you can start a never ending discussion and waste your time for free.

 

[Robert McNewbie]

Apiro, I became an apple fanboy and because you took the effort to reply to my post and because I have nothing else better to do (radio Swiss Jazz is on my wireless speakers) allow me to comment on your points:
-Mac 1.37 kg > Dell 1.21 kg (you right!)
- Mac 304.1x212.4x14.9mm > Dell 302x199x7.8-11.6mm (you got me here to!)
- Mac aluminium < Dell carbon fiber (subjective I think, I prefer metal)
- Mac i5-8259U < Dell i7-8550U (they're of different class so their direct comparison makes little sense but inside their own class Mac's i5 is lower than Dell's i7 is; but even comparing them directly i7 will have better TurboBoost) (cpu-monkey: mac TDP > Dell, base freq mac >dell, mac Turbo all cores >Dell)
- Mac non-touch < Dell touch (I only touch the screen when Genesis is singing "Jesus he knows me", otherwise I don't like fingerprints, dell users may need to because not so good touchpad)
- Mac 2.5K < Dell 4K display (I cant distinguish beyond 200ppi@50cm, but dell's 620 GPU has a lot more work to do)
- Mac huge edges < Dell no-edge display (actually macs bottom edge is thinner, while the top edge allows for comera unlike dell's ...)
- Mac macOS cannot be refunded < Dell's Windows can be refunded - here's more discount; there are so much bugs in macOS lately than even Linux might be regarded by some people to be superior than macOS ( I didn't get this one)
- Mac everything soldered < Dell's everything replaceable (and the fact Dell SSD is slightly slower than Mac's won't make any difference in real-world usage) (Dell RAM is soldered)
- Mac is not optimised for Windows < Dell is (how is that?)
- Mac touch bar is considered a bad thing by a lot of people (they may have a pint, I am using a lot, at work, in Word and Excell ctrl+F1,4, sometimes shift+F3, but my mac is for home and I dont need Fn + Fx to adjust volume, brightness. But I think I will get friends with TB after I learn more)

Your turn ...
[doublepost=1538422856][/doublepost]

You can't really compare a Mac to a PC or vice versa, but you can start a never ending discussion and waste your time for free.

I started a thread about the so called Apple "Tax" perception and I used indeed some comparison elements but it is not my point.
[doublepost=1538423643][/doublepost]By the way, now after reading what Apiro and myself wrote I think Dell's laptop cost less to make and is more profitable, unless Apple figured out some economies of scale.

 

[Ma2k5]

You probably are paying a Dell tax, wouldn't surprise me considering how popular the XPS 13 is and pretty much always being well reviewed and recommended - Dell will like any other company try maximise profits.

I noticed that the XPS 15 seems to be far cheaper relatively speaking.

 

[Robert McNewbie]

I finished reading a review on the XPS and I can't stop pointing out some questionable design decisions:

• The air inlet is on the bottom that is obstructed if one use the laptop on his lap or a blanket.
• The feet are two strips. Does it wobble if not on a perfectly flat surface?

 

[jerryk]

I finished reading a review on the XPS and I can't stop pointing out some questionable design decisions:

• The air inlet is on the bottom that is obstructed if one use the laptop on his lap or a blanket.
• The feet are two strips. Does it wobble if not on a perfectly flat surface?

Mac would get blocked by a blanket underneath since air intakes are on bottom. Don't block intakes on any laptop. Also some people complain macs cut your legs because the vents are sharp.

The four button feet on a mac are good, but so are strips. Just different engineering.

I suggest you don't go down the road of becoming a Windows (or Linux) basher. IMHO use the system that makes sense to your specific case. If the applications you use the most run on one platform better (say gaming) get a Windows system. If they run on Mac OS better (Say Final Cut Pro) get a Mac.

Bottom line is both platforms will get the job done. At the end of the day trying to say which system is better is like choosing between Chocolate or Vanilla ice cream. They both taste good, it's a matter of preference.

 

[LogicalApex]

Apple tax for inferior machine with keyboard that breaks, with kernel panics not fixed for more than half a year, with components non-replaceable (so add AppleCare cost here) etc etc etc.

Kernel panics not fixed for more than half a year? The 2018 MBP has only been out 81 days or a little over 2 months...

Soldered on components is a very valid complaint. I'm not a fan of this trend spreading across the entire industry. This isn't limited to Apple, sadly. But I agree they are the most extreme in this regard.

The jury is still out on the reliability improvements to the 2018 MBP keyboard. Hopefully this keyboard proves stable.

 

[SDColorado]

Kernel panics not fixed for more than half a year? The 2018 MBP has only been out 81 days or a little over 2 months...

Soldered on components is a very valid complaint. I'm not a fan of this trend spreading across the entire industry. This isn't limited to Apple, sadly. But I agree they are the most extreme in this regard.

The jury is still out on the reliability improvements to the 2018 MBP keyboard. Hopefully this keyboard proves stable.

Unfortunately the kernel panic issue began with the iMP and continued on to the MBP, because Apple did not address it prior to the MBP release with the same T2 chip.

Microsoft is just as guilty of the solder everything on trait as Apple, but a lot of alternatives that will at least let you upgrade RAM and SSD.

 

[darkloki]

I own a Razer Blade 15 and a Macbook Pro 15 (2016) and I will probably never get rid of my macbook. One thing macbooks do very very well (that hardly comes up) is go to sleep and wake up comfortably. Sure you can do this on a Windows Machine but be careful it might become Sleeping Beauty or Snow White.

Even with my $2,000 machine (non apple) machine this can happen:

my systems:

 

[SDColorado]

I own a Razer Blade 15 and a Macbook Pro 15 (2016) and I will probably never get rid of my macbook. One thing macbooks do very very well (that hardly comes up) is go to sleep and wake up comfortably. Sure you can do this on a Windows Machine but be careful it might become Sleeping Beauty or Snow White.

I can't say that I have ever had any problems with my Windows machines waking up, but I have had KP's on the 2018 MBP's waking up. Not sure I understand the issue other than ... Razer?

 

[Hadron]

Well here in the UK I can buy the Dell XPS 13" with 8th gen i7, 16GB RAM, 512GB SSD and Ubuntu (preferable to Windows for me, and closer to MacOS internally) for £1,299 including taxes. That's only a 1080p display, but compare it to a similar spec MBP at £2,400 (i7, 16/512GB) and you are paying a hell of a premium for the higher resolution panel. And I could get the Dell with a 4k touchscreen (and Windows) for £1,549, so that point is moot.

Now I do have a new MBP on order, and it's a bit less outrageous since I have access to educational pricing (which neither of the above prices were), but I don't kid myself that I couldn't get much better value for money hardware-wise. I do place a value on the OS, or else I wouldn't be buying a Mac, but considering how much prices have risen since my last purchase I also wonder whether I will value it sufficiently next time.

 

[apiro]

Response inline.

Apiro, I became an apple fanboy and because you took the effort to reply to my post and because I have nothing else better to do (radio Swiss Jazz is on my wireless speakers) allow me to comment on your points:
-Mac 1.37 kg > Dell 1.21 kg (you right!)
- Mac 304.1x212.4x14.9mm > Dell 302x199x7.8-11.6mm (you got me here to!)
- Mac aluminium < Dell carbon fiber (subjective I think, I prefer metal) - this is not a point of what's more pleasing, carbon is just better material objectively
- Mac i5-8259U < Dell i7-8550U (they're of different class so their direct comparison makes little sense but inside their own class Mac's i5 is lower than Dell's i7 is; but even comparing them directly i7 will have better TurboBoost) (cpu-monkey: mac TDP > Dell, base freq mac >dell, mac Turbo all cores >Dell) - all what you listed slightly better with 2 times more TDP; slightly < 2
- Mac non-touch < Dell touch (I only touch the screen when Genesis is singing "Jesus he knows me", otherwise I don't like fingerprints, dell users may need to because not so good touchpad) - then we can find another machine where you don't have to pay for touch in order to install 4K and the difference in price would be even more; it's not a question whether you like it, it's a question whether people pay Apple tax - and then additional functionality matters 'cause it increases price
- Mac 2.5K < Dell 4K display (I cant distinguish beyond 200ppi@50cm, but dell's 620 GPU has a lot more work to do) - your point is subjective; objectively Dell is better; see explanation for previous point
- Mac huge edges < Dell no-edge display (actually macs bottom edge is thinner, while the top edge allows for comera unlike dell's ...)
- Mac macOS cannot be refunded < Dell's Windows can be refunded - here's more discount; there are so much bugs in macOS lately than even Linux might be regarded by some people to be superior than macOS ( I didn't get this one) - if you don't intend using Windows and want to install Linux you refund Windows and get some bucks back; if you don't intend to use macOS and only want to install Windows or Linux - you don't get anything back for the macOS
- Mac everything soldered < Dell's everything replaceable (and the fact Dell SSD is slightly slower than Mac's won't make any difference in real-world usage) (Dell RAM is soldered) - ok, you caught me; I'll upgrade Dell RAM to maximum allowed 16GB for $100 upon buying while Mac's RAM will cost what? two times more - 16GB +200$; more Apple tax; the point is - SSD upgrade prices are even worse with Mac than RAM and it's not because Mac's SSDs are faster - you can find Samsung 970 Pro or something which will be as good for lesser price - it's because of Apple tax
- Mac is not optimised for Windows < Dell is (how is that?) - read about it
- Mac touch bar is considered a bad thing by a lot of people (they may have a pint, I am using a lot, at work, in Word and Excell ctrl+F1,4, sometimes shift+F3, but my mac is for home and I dont need Fn + Fx to adjust volume, brightness. But I think I will get friends with TB after I learn more) - again, your point is subjective, mine isn't - a lot of people don't like it; if you wrote "I don't pay Apple tax" - it'd be OK, you wrote something like "people pay Apple tax" - it's not OK, Apple does not give choice

Your turn ...
[doublepost=1538422856][/doublepost]

I started a thread about the so called Apple "Tax" perception and I used indeed some comparison elements but it is not my point.

By the way, now after reading what Apiro and myself wrote I think Dell's laptop cost less to make and is more profitable, unless Apple figured out some economies of scale.

Funny thing - Apple did indeed. It's just they did it for them, not for us. They're actually more genius in economics+marketing than in the hardware/software they sell IMHO.
[doublepost=1538474941][/doublepost]

Do you mind me asking why Chrome on Mac asks you whether you want to restore your tabs or not? AFAIK this only happens after ungraceful shutdown (of Mac or Chrome - the latter being quite hard to achieve). Isn't it the most stable of all?
And also considering how many programmes are installed/running on Razer (see tray and taskbar) and Mac - I think Razer does much more than Mac for you!..

 

[Lennyvalentin]

- Mac touch bar is considered a bad thing by a lot of people

Yeah? What bizarro world people are those? Windows laptops that have tiny touchpads with mechanical clicky buttons that sometimes even need a driver installation before the touchpad will even work is supposed to be superior to a solid-state touchpad that's huge and super precise and clicks effortlessly no matter where you click it?

This is one of the biggest gripes I have with windows laptops (and consequently, also biggest Macbook advantages.) Plus macOS's excellent touchpad/swipe support and generally better high-DPI screen support compared to win10, which is still lacking despite being out for years now. Undoubtedly a product of being dragged down by a billion+ PCs with low-DPI screens connected to them.

 

[apiro]

Yeah? What bizarro world people are those? Windows laptops that have tiny touchpads with mechanical clicky buttons that sometimes even need a driver installation before the touchpad will even work is supposed to be superior to a solid-state touchpad that's huge and super precise and clicks effortlessly no matter where you click it?

This is one of the biggest gripes I have with windows laptops (and consequently, also biggest Macbook advantages.) Plus macOS's excellent touchpad/swipe support and generally better high-DPI screen support compared to win10, which is still lacking despite being out for years now. Undoubtedly a product of being dragged down by a billion+ PCs with low-DPI screens connected to them.

I think you misunderstood. I love Mac's touchpad as well. And essentially it (not macOS or anything) is the reason I started buying Macs back then no matter how silly it sounds. Not so much now whatever.
I was talking about touch bar, the new line of OLED buttons above the keyboard replacing F keys Apple is pushing on everyone who wants a performant-machine.

 

[Lennyvalentin]

I was talking about touch bar, the new line of OLED buttons above the keyboard replacing F keys Apple is pushing on everyone who wants a performant-machine.

Ah, right. Disregard! My bad!

(Btw, personally I rather like the touchbar...)

 

[maflynn]

Im I missing something or people are paying a Dell "tax"?

Yes, the non touch 4k screen with 8GB of ram is only 1,750 where as the stock TB MBP is 1,700.

Differences:
Dell's screen full 4k, Apple's is not 4k
Dell is thinner bezels then Apple's
Dells memory is upgradeable Apple's is not
Dell's Storage is upgradeable Apple's is not
Dell does not have a gimmicky touchbar that few developers have embraced.
Dell has a better keyboard, not that fragile and problem plagued butterfly keyboard
Dell has more ports

So while the 4k machine is technically higher and Apple's SSD is indeed faster, you can easily replace the ram, and storage on the Dell.
Also if you're worried about Dell not having a store near you, you can pay for Dell's next day service and have a replacement in 24 hours.

 

[Ploki]

I think you misunderstood. I love Mac's touchpad as well. And essentially it (not macOS or anything) is the reason I started buying Macs back then no matter how silly it sounds. Not so much now whatever.
I was talking about touch bar, the new line of OLED buttons above the keyboard replacing F keys Apple is pushing on everyone who wants a performant-machine.

I dont get the hate it gets.

been working with it for a week and i think its great. I disabled the control pad and have all of it dedicated to the app im currently running. FN functioning to reveal the strip.

Im planning on running it clamshell and im gonna miss the touchbar in Logic Pro very much

 

[maflynn]

I own a Razer Blade 15 and a Macbook Pro 15 (2016)

I really liked the 15" Razer, that's a gorgeous machine that is so much faster then the MBP, but I found after using the Razer for two weeks, that I really missed the macOS experience. I didn't mind windows, I use and support windows at work, but macos is better for my needs. I also like how the MBP is quieter, and while I have it manually throttled, I found using it day to day is better then the razer.

 

[darkloki]

Response inline.


Funny thing - Apple did indeed. It's just they did it for them, not for us. They're actually more genius in economics+marketing than in the hardware/software they sell IMHO.
[doublepost=1538474941][/doublepost]
Do you mind me asking why Chrome on Mac asks you whether you want to restore your tabs or not? AFAIK this only happens after ungraceful shutdown (of Mac or Chrome - the latter being quite hard to achieve). Isn't it the most stable of all?
And also considering how many programmes are installed/running on Razer (see tray and taskbar) and Mac - I think Razer does much more than Mac for you!..

The Razer is actually my work machine while the Macbook is my personal machine also I'm so obsessed that the razer is going to overheat i have about 6 of those icons that strictly deal with thermals :X

 

[Ma2k5]

I really liked the 15" Razer, that's a gorgeous machine that is so much faster then the MBP, but I found after using the Razer for two weeks, that I really missed the macOS experience. I didn't mind windows, I use and support windows at work, but macos is better for my needs. I also like how the MBP is quieter, and while I have it manually throttled, I found using it day to day is better then the razer.

This was an interesting video I've come across about the Razer Blade -

I think a lot of people may find they have better experiences going with the GTX 1060 in heat/battery life/noise and not even notice the performance difference (in some games it appears this was getting higher FPS than the 1070 model). Oh and you get to save over £300!.

 

[maflynn]

I think a lot of people may find they have better experiences going with the GTX 1060 in heat/battery life/noise and not even notice the performance difference (in some games it appears this was getting higher FPS than the 1070 model). Oh and you get to save over £300!.

I had the 1060 model, and that bad boy flew. It didn't throttle, but it did get warm. I did find windows inconsistent in its UI/UX and had to manage the temps in a number of ways and places.

In some respects I still have pangs of regret over returning it. I do really like my MBP and its been solid, no question but the Razer is a better computer in many aspects. It is pricey, but it was a fantastic computer for me.

 

[Ma2k5]

I had the 1060 model, and that bad boy flew. It didn't throttle, but it did get warm. I did find windows inconsistent in its UI/UX and had to manage the temps in a number of ways and places.

In some respects I still have pangs of regret over returning it. I do really like my MBP and its been solid, no question but the Razer is a better computer in many aspects. It is pricey, but it was a fantastic computer for me.

Ah ok!

Yep, it is tempting me too as it is a beautiful machine. What is pushing me back is that it costs £1979 for the GTX 1060 (plus £300 for 3 year warranty), where I could instead get a 4K/1TB SSD/32GB RAM XPS 9570 for £1961 with 3 year warranty included with discount code...