Apple "tax"? Really?

[Phil A.]

I dont get the hate it gets.

been working with it for a week and i think its great. I disabled the control pad and have all of it dedicated to the app im currently running. FN functioning to reveal the strip.

Im planning on running it clamshell and im gonna miss the touchbar in Logic Pro very much

I don't hate the TB so much as find it irrelevant to be honest.
I've got a 2016 13" MBP and have never really found any advantage at all in having the Touch bar: I got the TB model because the rest of the specs were better than the non TB model but I can't really say having the touch bar has improved the usability of the machine at all over having function keys

 

[SDColorado]

Ah ok!

Yep, it is tempting me too as it is a beautiful machine. What is pushing me back is that it costs £1979 for the GTX 1060 (plus £300 for 3 year warranty), where I could instead get a 4K/1TB SSD/32GB RAM XPS 9570 for £1961 with 3 year warranty included with discount code...

The main thing I struggle with on the XPS 9570 is that if you do any video conferencing, About the only worse place Dell could have found to put the camera would have been next to the trackpad. That and the camera and speakers aren’t great either.

 

[Ploki]

I don't hate the TB so much as find it irrelevant to be honest.
I've got a 2016 13" MBP and have never really found any advantage at all in having the Touch bar: I got the TB model because the rest of the specs were better than the non TB model but I can't really say having the touch bar has improved the usability of the machine at all over having function keys

I find it most useful in Logic Pro honestly.

 

[Ma2k5]

The main thing I struggle with on the XPS 9570 is that if you do any video conferencing, About the only worse place Dell could have found to put the camera would have been next to the trackpad. That and the camera and speakers aren’t great either.

Haha yep. Funnily pretty much all camera's seem to be crappy apart from Microsofts. With the quality of the camera's so poor as it is (and adding things like corporate network lag/issues), I find that the angle of the camera I end up not caring about much - especially as usually we do screen sharing to applications/spreadsheets etc anyway, so rarely is it a personal "one to one" chat, in which case we would just do a voice call rather than a video call.

 

[darkloki]

This was an interesting video I've come across about the Razer Blade -

I think a lot of people may find they have better experiences going with the GTX 1060 in heat/battery life/noise and not even notice the performance difference (in some games it appears this was getting higher FPS than the 1070 model). Oh and you get to save over £300!.

Yea I actually got the 1060 version a month ago like he suggested I even went as far as to get a Razer Core with a 1070 Desktop to go with it and it runs pretty well for my games. So I use my Razer Blade for games and work (Database Stuff) and I use my Macbook for everything else. The total price for the razer blade 1060 version with a razer core and 1070 Card for me was $2365 so I was really happy with that. I almost went as far as to learn to install the EGPU on the macbook and run some loader to get it to work in Bootcamp but I'm glad I decided to just get two machines and spend the extra $1900.. But what's awesome here is that my setup with the ebay Core (Used) runs the exact same cost if not cheaper then the 1070 maxQ variant. Again I'm happy with the route I picked 😀


Hearthstone is a very demanding game so I'm glad I have my Razer Core to help out with the FRAPS

 

[SDColorado]

Haha yep. Funnily pretty much all camera's seem to be crappy apart from Microsofts. With the quality of the camera's so poor as it is (and adding things like corporate network lag/issues), I find that the angle of the camera I end up not caring about much - especially as usually we do screen sharing to applications/spreadsheets etc anyway, so rarely is it a personal "one to one" chat, in which case we would just do a voice call rather than a video call.

I have used the cameras for some panel discussions and the Dell just has a completely unflattering up the nose view from that oddly low angle. I get it that they are trying to make good use of the “chin” that results from the 16:9 screen ratio, but geez a little bit of a top bezel wouldn’t kill you 🙂.

On the bright side at least it is now centered, rather than the off-center efforts of the past.

I suppose if it really mattered you could add a Tandberg Precision, Logitech Brio or the like. But there is a reason why pretty much everyone else put the camera at the top of the display 🙂

 

[maflynn]

I dont get the hate it gets.

Its not hate on my part, but rather disappointment in apple removed something that was useful, and replaced it with something that is not useful. I use my f keys on a daily basis and now having to look down to see where the F7, or the F3 or even the escape key is a pain. Also consider that apple has not extended the touchbar to any other computer so for developers there's little incentive to embrace it. Apple's marketshare is in about the 10% range, of that, the MBP is only a portion and so its a niche item in a niche marketshare.

, About the only worse place Dell could

I like how Razer kept the camera up where it ought to be and kept the bezels thin, every year I wish Dell would move it back to where it should be and every year I get disappointed

 

[apiro]

Kernel panics not fixed for more than half a year? The 2018 MBP has only been out 81 days or a little over 2 months...

They started in iMac Pro. They have the same T2 chip as MBPs 2018 and only they have it from the Macs lineup. No one knows if it's a coincidence. :wink-wink:

 

[_Kiki_]

big bonus for Dell for not glued battery, but still probably not official replaceable by end-user, so users will be left for looking batteries on the "grey market" or use expensive authorised service

Yes, the non touch 4k screen with 8GB of ram is only 1,750 where as the stock TB MBP is 1,700.

Differences:
Dell's screen full 4k, Apple's is not 4k
Dell is thinner bezels then Apple's
Dells memory is upgradeable Apple's is not
Dell's Storage is upgradeable Apple's is not
Dell does not have a gimmicky touchbar that few developers have embraced.
Dell has a better keyboard, not that fragile and problem plagued butterfly keyboard
Dell has more ports

So while the 4k machine is technically higher and Apple's SSD is indeed faster, you can easily replace the ram, and storage on the Dell.
Also if you're worried about Dell not having a store near you, you can pay for Dell's next day service and have a replacement in 24 hours.

You are wrong,
Dell XPS 13 9370 has a soldered memory, only SSD is upgradable

Yea I actually got the 1060 version a month ago like he suggested I even went as far as to get a Razer Core with a 1070 Desktop to go with it and it runs pretty well for my games. So I use my Razer Blade for games and work (Database Stuff) and I use my Macbook for everything else. The total price for the razer blade 1060 version with a razer core and 1070 Card for me was $2365 so I was really happy with that. I almost went as far as to learn to install the EGPU on the macbook and run some loader to get it to work in Bootcamp but I'm glad I decided to just get two machines and spend the extra $1900.. But what's awesome here is that my setup with the ebay Core (Used) runs the exact same cost if not cheaper then the 1070 maxQ variant. Again I'm happy with the route I picked 😀


Hearthstone is a very demanding game so I'm glad I have my Razer Core to help out with the FRAPS

1070 it's not a big upgrade over 1060, you should replace with something faster like 1080ti or even RTX 2080

 

[Hadron]

Also consider that apple has not extended the touchbar to any other computer so for developers there's little incentive to embrace it. Apple's marketshare is in about the 10% range, of that, the MBP is only a portion and so its a niche item in a niche marketshare.

Not even their own external keyboards, so if you use it during the day with an external monitor and keyboard (as I would assume most people using it professionally would, from an occupational health perspective if nothing else) then its utility is reduced further.

I really don't understand their attitude, unless they've just lost interest/confidence in it and are just letting it coast until the next redesign. But if so that seems to have happened before they even launched it.

 

[maflynn]

You are wrong,
Dell XPS 13 9370 has a soldered memory, only SSD is upgradable

My mistake but the point is that you still get an upgradeable system with a superior display near the same price as apple with a glued in system.

 

[Ma2k5]

Not even their own external keyboards, so if you use it during the day with an external monitor and keyboard (as I would assume most people using it professionally would, from an occupational health perspective if nothing else) then its utility is reduced further.

I really don't understand their attitude, unless they've just lost interest/confidence in it and are just letting it coast until the next redesign. But if so that seems to have happened before they even launched it.

It has had some a mixed reaction, I can see why they probably don't want to work too much on it or spread it to other devices and potentially sour customers - I mean it isn't like people were unhappy or complaining about the F-keys.

Will be interesting to see what they do next with it - I'd expect it has to be something good enough to roll out to all their product lines.

 

[Ploki]

Its not hate on my part, but rather disappointment in apple removed something that was useful, and replaced it with something that is not useful. I use my f keys on a daily basis and now having to look down to see where the F7, or the F3 or even the escape key is a pain. Also consider that apple has not extended the touchbar to any other computer so for developers there's little incentive to embrace it. Apple's marketshare is in about the 10% range, of that, the MBP is only a portion and so its a niche item in a niche marketshare.

I guess it should've been optional. In Logic, having 100 shortcuts that say what they are (ones that are not commonly used) is much more useful than twelve keys. Not to mention the playback and overview sliders. I think its great.

I'm disappointed ill lose it once i go clamshell. I dont know what are they waiting for with external keyboard.

 

[JamiLynee]

Windows 10 can be installed on many 8 year old laptops and desktops without having to patch the os beforehand but you can't say the same for MacOS. This means having to buy a new machine with everything soldered in place or a used MacBook with only a replaceable SSD.

Is having everything soldered to the motherboard part of the Apple tax?

I was easily able to install every new OS on my 9 year old Macbook without any patch. I only upgraded because I wanted something lighter. That beast still runs like a champ.

 

[darkloki]

1070 it's not a big upgrade over 1060, you should replace with something faster like 1080ti or even RTX 2080

Oh the 1070 Desktop is still alot better then a 1070 MAXQ laptop Varriant, also that came with the Enclosure I bought for the eGPU. I actually have a 2080 RTX ti on pre-order which I won't get until November I think it even got delayed by a week, I have been so busy playing games and working I haven't even bothered to check. But yea my laptop should be fine, however because I use the laptop internal monitor I'm not getting full performance as compared to using an External Monitor due to the rescrutions/limitations of TB3.

But that's OKAY! I play Hearthstone... and I'm a Mac User before I'm a PC gamer so this is all just on the side..

 

[Audit13]

I was easily able to install every new OS on my 9 year old Macbook without any patch. I only upgraded because I wanted something lighter. That beast still runs like a champ.

How did you install High Sierra onto a 2009 Macbook without a patch? The oldest machine I had was a mid-2010 15" with High Sierra. The 2010 was quite quick with an SSD and has been dropped for Mojave.

 

[Marshall73]

A week ago I purchased my first Mac. That is a 2018 MBP 8/256 (price $1799). I got here after I decided that I am ready to pay the so called Apple "tax" to get a mac OS device along with the beautiful 16:10 true tone display and best trackpad (+ aluminium case ). I've been using Windows for ever and I thought that if my experience with mac OS ends bad I can run Windows on it anyway.
Yesterday google shows up a 5* laptop review so I had to read it since my MBB got on average 4* reviews. This review was about a Dell XPS 13. So I configured a $1799 Dell XPS 13 9370 that has:

• Display area: 5% smaller than the mac's and is 16:9 ratio 🙁 while mac has 16:10.
• CPU core I7 8550U: rated lower than mac's CPU
• GPU Intel 620: slower, less memory than mac's 655
• SSD: slower than mac's
• It does not run macOS, the mac does run Windows
• No touch bar
• Bluetooth version: 4.1 the mac has v 5.0
• No Dell shop around me, there are two apple premium resellers within walking distance.

Im I missing something or people are paying a Dell "tax"?

There is "one more thing": Airdrop is so cool! (Yes, I have an old iPhone)

There is no real apple tax, Macs keep their prices for much longer so when you are ready to upgrade you get a decent return on your old machine.

 

[jerryk]

I can't say that I have ever had any problems with my Windows machines waking up, but I have had KP's on the 2018 MBP's waking up. Not sure I understand the issue other than ... Razer?

Same here. Both my desktop and laptop windows machines wake up just fine.

And it is wrong to say that because brand X's windows machine has an issue, brand Y's windows machine has the same issue. Engineering teams select and put different components together to meet performance and profit goals.

 

[Ma2k5]

Not sure if anyone's following the Windows event, but Microsoft are looking to make iOS/Android integration even better (among other things). The October W10 update apparently releases today.

I'm probably more interested in the Windows updates than the devices.

 

[darkloki]

Same here. Both my desktop and laptop windows machines wake up just fine.

And it is wrong to say that because brand X's windows machine has an issue, brand Y's windows machine has the same issue. Engineering teams select and put different components together to meet performance and profit goals.

Contrary to popular believe the reason why Windows struggles to Wake up from sleep is because it's not an easy process. Sleep mode is based on a very complicated ACPI procedure that requires EVERYTHING to be programmed correctly in the DSDT with proper driver interaction with the SMBUS, LPC, and video cards. If any of these things is broken, so goes sleep..

So again.... A windows laptop could have any of those aspects go wrong and the sleep mode is instantly broken, and on top of that anything can go wrong with those components/drivers at anytime. I've had two or 3 systems (1 was a desktop) that was a windows machine that eventually broke while under sleep mode. You won't know you have a problem until it literally goes to sleep and does not wake up again. Seems impossible until it actually happens and then you realize it's very possible and that it does happen. Again I provided a video earlier to show just how real this is even on high end components/systems.

 

[Hadron]

I guess it should've been optional. In Logic, having 100 shortcuts that say what they are (ones that are not commonly used) is much more useful than twelve keys. Not to mention the playback and overview sliders. I think its great.

I think the main problem is that you need to look at it to use it, whereas as long as you've progressed beyond "hunt and peck" you can use function keys without taking your eyes away from the screen. Hence for those who do use the function keys it's an interruption to the workflow.

Context-dependent shortcuts can be an annoyance as well as a blessing. I'll play around a little when mine arrives, but to be honest I expect I'll turn all of that off quickly, just set up a few things that I have uses for and leave it at that.

The trouble with making it an option is that it becomes an embarrassment if the majority don't choose it. Of course I may be being cynical there...

 

[Ploki]

I think the main problem is that you need to look at it to use it, whereas as long as you've progressed beyond "hunt and peck" you can use function keys without taking your eyes away from the screen. Hence for those who do use the function keys it's an interruption to the workflow.

Context-dependent shortcuts can be an annoyance as well as a blessing. I'll play around a little when mine arrives, but to be honest I expect I'll turn all of that off quickly, just set up a few things that I have uses for and leave it at that.

The trouble with making it an option is that it becomes an embarrassment if the majority don't choose it. Of course I may be being cynical there...

If anything i learned macrumors forums are rarely the opinion of the majority.
I know that 2012-2015 retina is touted as "the best designed macbook pros" here, but when it came out, forums were up in arms for the lack of LAN port on a laptop (despite of the addition of two much more useful ports) and some even about the optical drive (most of them because of cheap additional storage), and soldered RAM? Dont even get me started on that fiasco.
And launch was a mess. First retina laptop - graphics were glitching probably until 10.9 was released.

If it were up to macrumors, current macbooks would look like abomination:
https://blog.macsales.com/39345-owc-makes-macbooks-pro-again-with-game-changing-product

I dont mind looking at the TB, because the shortcuts i programmed in logic are the ones i rarely (but still consistently) use, and have description is faster for me because, and various "play" buttons behaviour (main was defaulted to space) which i also use only during editing are at the tip of my finger instead of a dual-key shortcut. And those i can already access without looking at them. Muscle memory is a funny thing. Violinists have muscle memory and there's no feedback on the violin string about the position of the finger on the string, yet somehow they learn to hit the notes.

As far as the ESCAPE key extends way to the left, even though it doesnt have display extended (which looks unintuitive). You can hit the black space where escape key used to be and it registers.

 

[maflynn]

[MOD NOTE]
Lets get back to the point of the thread - the Apple Tax. We've strayed a bit on this topic, and to be fair to the OP, we should bring the discussion back to the topic at hand

 

[theluggage]

Im I missing something or people are paying a Dell "tax"?

Not exactly - they're paying a Dell XPS "tax" for Dell's range of "premium" thin'n'crispy laptops that are specifically targeted against Apple products. Dell - and their competitors - also offer various other laptop ranges if you want an economy-class laptop or a deep-pan portable workstation. The "tax" meme has always been about whether you were prepared to pay extra for something sleeker and lighter, along with how much you were prepared to pay to have MacOS.

A few years ago, only a few people were really doing the "premium laptop" thing - it was more a case of paying the Apple tax, the Thinkpad tax, the Vaio tax or getting something for half the price that looked like a bucket full of spare parts but did the job and might win a game of Top Trumps if you cherry-picked the right specification. Nowadays, most of the big manufacturers have a "premium" laptop range that encroaches into Apple price territory.

Or, you can pay the extended Microsoft (or a Google) tax and get a Surface Book or Surface Studio or a Pixel at a price that starts to make Apple look like the cheaper option - superficially, they look like they're trying to out-Apple Apple, but MS and Google are playing a slightly different game that seems to be more about having flagship hardware to show off the operating systems and services which are their real cash cows.

The PC market is slowing, so everybody is looking to increase their margins to maintain the level of growth that the market has come to expect from tech companies.

The real issue for Apple is that they seem to be pushing further into the luxury goods realm and focussing on form-over-function (on the catwalk, the current MBPs still blow everything away in terms of cosmetics) - the question is, how far can you go down that road with a computer that needs a thriving ecosystem of third-party software and services. Your $5000 designer handbag doesn't depend on driver support to be able to carry your chosen brand of lipstick* - your Chief Executive Jaguar doesn't need special Jaguar-only fuel and can drive on the same roads** as the Fords that your mere managers are equipped with - but switching computer platforms, or supporting two operating systems is a major pain.

The characteristic of Macs at the moment is that if one of the very limited range of models matches your particular needs then great, worth every penny - but the choice and flexibility isn't there: want a 'deep pan' mobile workstation that has the connectivity you need and doesn't compromise performance for size/weight? Go fish. Want an economical laptop for the occasional road-trip away from your iMac Pro workhorse? Sorry, the Air Hasn't been updated since 2015. Need a NVIDIA graphics card for your CUDA-optimised pro software? Think different. Want a headless desktop system to use with your specialist displays? Well, hope never dies. Want a proper tower system because sometimes the tool for the job is a pick-up truck not a SUV-crossover with gull-wing doors? Don't hold your breath.

Its not all about price.

* Or maybe it does - I really know nothing of such things.
** ...but give it time 🙂

 

[Hadron]

Not exactly - they're paying a Dell XPS "tax" for Dell's range of "premium" thin'n'crispy laptops that are specifically targeted against Apple products. Dell - and their competitors - also offer various other laptop ranges if you want an economy-class laptop or a deep-pan portable workstation. The "tax" meme has always been about whether you were prepared to pay extra for something sleeker and lighter, along with how much you were prepared to pay to have MacOS.

I'd absolutely agree that part of the "Apple Tax" argument comes from the fact that Apple only do the premium sector, whereas most manufacturers have different products for different types of buyer. And it used to be the case that if you compared something equivalent from other manufacturers Apple offered equivalent, or sometimes better, value.

But as I noted earlier, at least here in the UK the XPS 13 series are a lot cheaper than the equivalent 13" Macbook Pros. And I just checked that I can buy a Thinkpad X1 Carbon with equivalent spec for £700 less than the MBP model used for the comparison (indeed even the newly-announced Surface Book 2 is marginally cheaper). So maybe it's different in the USA and Apple are just applying a larger "rip-off Britain" tax than others (I understand that their Eurozone prices are even worse), but at least where I am the charge that Apple now ask a premium even relative to comparable products from other manufacturers is a fair one.