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I think you need to take a look and see just how capable the ARM platform is. They might be low power, but they haven't been low performance for a long while. Quite a few companies are realising this, and readying ARM-based servers. There'd be no point if the performance wasn't there.

True, an ARM-based "MacBook" wouldn't be for everyone, but it would suffice for quite a lot, and for Apple, it means more people in the ecosystem, and more money ( not mention the savings on components ). To Apple, that's no joking matter.

An ARM system is never going to be as powerful or flexible as an X86 one, the GPU of an ARM system is never going to match a Nvidia Titan for example, and who is releasing an ARM based server and what OS does it run? Because I only know of one ARM laptop and that's the Chrome Book.

The 'quite a lot' of people you mention would get the exact same experience from an iPad, they buy a computer because they expect it to do more and be more powerful, especially with a Mac due to it's high pricing. They don't expect a glorified iPad with a keyboard and mouse.

And that's the general public, not tech enthusiasts I am talking about. And I'm guessing you have Apple shares also? Because that can be the only possible reason I can see you would actually WANT Apple to make MORE profit?
 
An ARM processor is never going to be as powerful as an X86 one, the GPU of an ARM system is never going to match a Nvidia Titan for example, and who is releasing an ARM based server and what OS does it run? Because I only know of one ARM laptop and that's the Chrome Book.

Never is a long time.. ;)
 
ARM Based CPUs on Desktops - SWEET! IOS Based Desktops/Notebooks - HELL NO!

To have ARM based Desktops and Notebooks is a sweet deal, I truly like this architecture, it is solid and powerful. The thing that scares me most is a computer based on IOS since this OS is truly not ready for desktop class work. If this is a rumor to become true, I am sorry for Apple's decision: BAD MOVE. But again, I don't know how long they will keep giving up OS X for free and paying for the development from the hardware's no so deep pocket when they are reducing prices. Even though they use open source to back up the main structure of the OS X, which reduces the cost of the development a lot, I did not see in BSD's page something that would indicate Apple wild move in this direction. They would no be hiding it that much since they need to evolute a ***** load of drivers and others to hitch ride on current hardware available on the market. Talking about that, there is no main software house porting their stuff in this direction. Confusing rumor, yet exciting to discuss about.
 
If they can do their dynamic translation magic like they have in the past, nobody will care - especially if it comes with a lower price.

And then they drop their dynamic translation magic after two years of hardware adoption, just like they have in the past. Rosetta was very cool. Dropping it in Lion was not, and remains one of the worst decisions Apple has made since I hopped on board (notable close runners up: Razor thin, non-upgradable iMacs and iOS7).
 
I feared this would happened!

I still require Windows occasionally. If this transition ever did happen it would be a sucker punch.
 
The reason Chromebooks suck s much is because Google has severly locked down it's software, it only has a 16/32GB NAND, and all programs must be HTML/JS and run in the browser...

True: you can throw Linux on there and use it like a regular laptop; a lot will probably say it's not the same as Windows or OS X, but a significant amount of people only use Ubuntu nowadays anyway.

The Pixel can run all of the regular distros, but the regular sub-$1000 Chromebooks have to use special software because of the ARM chip.

Right now, there's ChrUbuntu, which is Ubuntu for Chromebooks, and Crouton, which lets you run Chrome OS and Ubuntu at the same time.

Not bad for a $150 laptop.

(Won't touch Windows or Mac sales for quite a while, though)
 
They got a huge market share when they switched from PPC. Don't put Apple in the hole again by making a step in the other direction. How about instead of trying to make laptops paper thin, you just leave them the same thickness and put a bigger battery in it?

I really wish they'd stop ignoring the professional market. Content creators and people in media centric fields can't get work done with CPUs as weak as ARM. Even i7s start to feel sluggish with big projects. Does Apple really expect ARM to get the job done?

Stop making useless changes for the sake of change.

Apple is turning into a big disappointment.

Hilarious. These are RUMORS and no one other than Apple knows the details. I find it incredibly hard to believe that Apple would abandon x86 architecture altogether. This will probably be an addition to the product line in a way none of us really anticipates right now.
 
I really don't think you need to worry. If these machines are real they will be going after a different market and keep the i86 machines around for a bit.



Which means nothing really. This garbage isn't any different than what was heard from Apple 2 users when the Mac came out. Either a product works for you or it doesn't.

Well it means alot really, many users will leave apple, as me for example, it must be an intel or an amd, no others!
 
This could be an exploration of ultra-low cost macbooks.

We're already seeing this in the PC world, with the ARM notebooks that all run Chrome and Android OS. An ARM macbook would likely run iOS.

Sorry, but 'ultra low cost' and 'Apple' are two phrases that have never and will never be combined.

If they make an ARM based computer, they will follow the exact same business model as they have done for years and years and charge a highly marked up premium price for the device.
 
well

if Apple didn't get the fact that people today buy Mac is only because they always have the ability to go back to windows if they want so, thus enjoying nice hardware with the OS of their choice.
going to ARM will kill the Mac sales.
 
Emulation is the Key

Emulation is the Key. Apple can easily write emulators for the older chip sets so that the ARM based Macs and iOS devices would be able to run ALL software from 68000 on up, PPC, Intel, etc. Emulation techniques for just in time, just ahead and one time translation have all advanced tremendously.

By being able to run all the past software of Macs, Unix, iOS, Windows, CPM, etc Apple would be the clear choice of hardware and Operating System going forward. Then the processor choice can be made rationally for the hardware application without worrying about compatibility because everything is compatible.
 
An ARM system is never going to be as powerful or flexible as an X86 one, the GPU of an ARM system is never going to match a Nvidia Titan for example, and who is releasing an ARM based server and what OS does it run? Because I only know of one ARM laptop and that's the Chrome Book.

The 'quite a lot' of people you mention would get the exact same experience from an iPad, they buy a computer because they expect it to do more and be more powerful, especially with a Mac due to it's high pricing. They don't expect a glorified iPad with a keyboard and mouse.

And that's the general public, not tech enthusiasts I am talking about. And I'm guessing you have Apple shares also? Because that can be the only possible reason I can see you would actually WANT Apple to make MORE profit?

Full of certainties today, aren't we? ;) AMD is making ARM based servers, I'm guessing it'll be running a *nix of some sort.

Nope, don't have any shares. I don't care how much profit Apple make, I was merely providing reasons as to why they'd consider launching an ARM-based "Mac".
 
Oh god please no. There was a good reason for previous processor transitions. PPC was not delivering performance or anything that Apple wanted. Intel are still doing that (Well I think they are) Haswell is pretty damn good for battery life.
It would just be too big a change, and one thing that has helped a lot of windows switch to Macs is Bootcamp.

Maybe this is to do with that 12 inch iPad Pro thing, which has a beefy Arm processor, and has some sort of magic trackpad attachment and it has been confused with a Macbook Air?
 
What is being overlooked is a growth segment that is on the rise; Chromebooks (and new Chromeboxes). An ARM chip in a Mac hardware shell need not necessarily run OS X. It can easily just run iOS.

When Mac OS transitioned to PowerPC (from 68K) and to x86 ( from PowerPC), Apple did not already have a larger OS ecosystem on those targeted processors.

This is also vastly different than the Windows RT situation.


Actually Apple is in pretty good shape here. MS's had (has) problems that Apple wouldn't:
- MS couldn't / didn't want to port the massive, crusty, and incredibly antiquated Win32 API and the stuff that has grown up around it to ARM. Apple's OS X APIs on the other hand, are well suited to to ARM, especially their own 64-bit chip.

Apple doesn't have to 'port' anything to ARM/iOS laptop. That is the huge difference between what Apple could be doing with an "iOSbook".


- MS also switched from a pointer-based UI to a touch-optimized one which broke compatibility with everything that came before. But the rumor here seems to suggest a desktop UI so no need for Apple to do the same.

Again shocker ..... Apple already has an established touch based GUI. The most cost effective way of rolling out a touch based laptop would be to just use the extremely highly adopted touch based GUI they already have.

This stark contrast to "Windows" phone/embedded OS

MS also didn't switch GUIs. It was far more the case that both GUIs are present. On Windows RT there just was not any 3rd party apps for the legacy mode "half" of the GUI.





It may be mostly a recompile and testing for most software with only a small set of changes needed in the end... Like the switch from 32-bit to 64-bit for Coco-based apps. Where apps will get stuck is if Apple drops support for old or obscure APIs like with Carbon.

Actually one of the big fails of RT is not having an emulation mode. Neither of Apple's very successful skipped bundling a transparent emulation mode. NeXT didn't do one and was not particularly successful. Asking the entire ecosystem to recompile and ship 'fat binaries' isn't a solution that is going to avoid short term problems.

Additionally with Apple's network only software distribution methodology 'fat binaries' is a also a problem because it means large bulk.




Apple will go all ARM, or no ARM. No pick and mixing like Microsoft.

There is no good reason to go all ARM just for the sake of being all ARM. ARM based solution aren't equivalent to the Intel offerings. That whole A7 is "desktop class" is stretched so far out of context of fullfilling broad spectrum Mac hardware needs it is more humorous than factual. It is just seeds to stir the pot of a long discussion thread ( to feed Macrumors money with ad views).

The 64 bit ARM gets into the Intel ATOM (and low end AMD) range of performance. Core i5/i7 still run circles around 64 bit ARM in terms of performance.



A total conversion with the Apple developer environment would force devs to adapt just as they did with the intel transition, and that was pretty clean all things considered.

It was clean because devs could transition via the emulator and fat binaries. Both of those are more problematical now. Apple didn't even do last emulator they used ( so internal talent is questionable) and bulky binaries are going to force even more folks at the end of slower Internet pipes to look for other solutions.





Devs that work on both OS X and iOS apps have been dealing with Intel and ARM happily for the past 7 years.

I suspect that they'd market this as something that is a third way.

Why do they need a 3rd way? Why wouldn't iOS apps work? If aiming into the class iOS device price zone $200-900 then Apple could target that with iOS devices. That still leaves the Macs mainly in the $900+ ( the Mac Mini the 'odd' exception).

There a fair number of folks buying Chromebooks/Chromeboxes. The folks who just need mostly a browser, email , video chat , pictures , music, and photos ( similar to what the iPad was aimed at initially) coupled to a keyboard and trackpad could very effectively accomplish all that with just iOS apps. In fact, there would be more apps diversity than what Chrome devices have.


While the Ax SoCs are powerful, they won't displace the Mac Pro any day soon.

So yes... why fragment the entry level Mac laptop line up from the rest of the Mac line up???? Especially when there is no deep seated need right now.
Where the Mac line should be aimed at is taking classic (from 4-8 years ago) Mac Pro workload and moving it down to the rest of the Mac line up. ARM (even the current 64 bit variant ) isn't particularly up to that task. Core i5/i7 is.


I hope Apple does not do Microsoft's mistake; the whole 'Windows RT' mess was for that reason, as Surface RT and Asus RT tablets both have ARM processors.

A year later Intel releases new lower power lower heat ATOM processors that literally render the whole thing useless

One of RT's major problem was far more not having an established application ecosystem. Apple doesn't have the problem of how to roll out a large ARM based app ecosystem.

Another task RT was saddled with was trying to get developers to develop for a new GUI where touch was at least just as important as the mouse pointer. Again Apple already has accomplished that over the last 7 years.
Part of what RT was trying to do is merge Windows Phone with 'Windows' so as to pull the Windows Phone into greater adoption. Apple doesn't have an iiOS or OS X adoption problem.

Apple probably does have an increasing "too expensive systems" problem. Much of the pinning for a ARM "Mac" is really for a less expensive Mac. If Apple went A7+/A8 ARM mac and charged current Mac prices I suspect you would find most of the ARM cheerleaders in this thread evaporate as being vocal for that change.

The real core issue is that a large segment of users workload needs are plateauing. It isn't that the A7 is "just as fast" as the desktop offerings from Intel/AMD as much as the A7 is "fast enough" for their everyday workload. The shift is more so about "more affordable" than "faster".

The notion that Apple has to collapse down to just one OS is highly questionable. iOS and OS X share a common subset so it is not all that expensive to do both as long as both iOS device and Mac ecosystems are growing and/or quite profitable.


Apple helped pushed Intel toward better iGPU and lower power and Intel is delivering. Until Intel completely drops the ball or the x86 market in a direction different from where the Mac ecosystem is going long term it makes little to no sense to shift to ARM just because of some "higher homogenous" stance. In fact, making iOS devices more homogenous with Mac devices would be as much as hindrance to Mac as helpful. If largely the exact same hardware that makes differentiation all that much harder.
 
Some good points and some mistakes.

I don't get all the hate.
I don't get it at all either. Apple pretty much has proven the value of ARM in the iPAds.
I guess it will be a pain for a while when apps are being updated, but as far as performance goes? The A7 in the iPad Air geekbenches 2500 as a dual core. Now take an A8 chip, scale it up to 4 times the cores of its predecessor and where do you think it will be performance-wise? Should be at least on-par with the i7 in the MacBook Pros.
Well here I have a problem. First Intel has so many i7's it is a pain to keep track of them all, much less their performance profiles. However on a core by core basis I suspect it will be sometime before Apples "A" series matches Intel performance wise.

However that isn't a bad thing because more cores are often a better way to deliver an overall good user experience. People are however underestimating just how much potential lies in the current A7 cores. A8 may be better or maybe not, I've heard rumors that Apple is targeting lower power as the primary feature of A8 but that could be nonsense.

In any event I don't think it would take much effort at all to mod A7 into a processor suitable for a laptop. This is while keeping it fanless, add active cooling and I suspect we could see very good performance.
Apple takes their time with these things. First putting a desktop class 64-bit chip in their phone and tablets. Next I'd expect to see a quad-core A8 in the iPad Pro. This would get software companies on board with making more professional quality software for ARM-based chips?
Actually the problem today in the iPad is RAM at the top of the list followed by flash storage and limitations in iOS. A7 by itself isn't keeping pro apps off the iPad.
They would learn how to optimize performance. I don't know exactly how Xcode differs between iOS and Mac versions,
XCode runs on Macs and can target ARM (iOS), i86 (iOS) and i86 Mac OS.

Most people don't realize that XCode compiles iOS programs to i86 for testing in an emulator on Mac OS. People get way too wrapped up in architectures here, Apple could easily build i86 iOS devices if they wanted too. They don't because there is tremendous value in building your own SoC with the functionality tailored to your needs.
but there could be some announcements of new features that could suggest making apps for both platforms could become increasingly similar. Apple thinks about the whole integration from top to bottom. Then the Arm MacBook Air will come, shortly followed by the MacBook Pros and the iMac, and lastly the Mac Pro once the hardware and software have more time to mature.
I have a hard time believing that Apple would ever go all ARM in the pro computers. Take that from a guy that wants to see ARM based laptops tomorrow. Apple understands the needs of pro users. What many people in this thread don't understand is that the overwhelming majority of users have no attachment to i86.
I could imagine that cylindrical design stacked with 32 A9 chips and a new version of Mac OS that takes advantage of that in new and exciting ways.

I could imagine that too but I don't think it will ever happen. For one thing Intel continues to advance the workstation chips, combine that with their multicore initiatives, XEON PHi and other activities I don't see a compelling ARM solution for the Mac Pro anytime soon.
 
Emulation is the Key. Apple can easily write emulators for the older chip sets so that the ARM based Macs and iOS devices would be able to run ALL software from 68000 on up, PPC, Intel, etc. Emulation techniques for just in time, just ahead and one time translation have all advanced tremendously.

By being able to run all the past software of Macs, Unix, iOS, Windows, CPM, etc Apple would be the clear choice of hardware and Operating System going forward. Then the processor choice can be made rationally for the hardware application without worrying about compatibility because everything is compatible.

I don't think anyone needs to emulate various CPUs these days, as close to 100% of consumer software (Apple's market) runs some kind of intel code. And it seems doubtful the ARM chips would give decent performance running an emulator.

If this is true it seems more likely to make a low lost hybrid iPad/Macbook Air - maybe this is where the split screen iOS app rumors are coming from.
 
Full of certainties today, aren't we? ;) AMD is making ARM based servers, I'm guessing it'll be running a *nix of some sort.

Nope, don't have any shares. I don't care how much profit Apple make, I was merely providing reasons as to why they'd consider launching an ARM-based "Mac".

Well I am absolutely certain the public don't want a glorified iPad as a desktop computer for $2000.
Got any links t0 those servers? And I'm guessing they will be running totally custom built OS's using all those cores? Hardly comparable to an ARM based desktop PC.
 
The difference being that OS X (and its grand daddy NextStep) are built for multi-platform environments from the ground up. Applications would need to get recompiled, but for many apps this would be very easy. Literally not much more than a click of a button.

A smart developer might setup hIs build files to do this automatically. If the developer doesn't I would imagine that Apple would add a switch to XCode to do it for the developer.

This assumes Apple goes the route of traditional compiled binaries for apps in future Mac OS versions. I could see them using some intermediate form and using something like LLVM to generate the final app locally.
 
if Apple didn't get the fact that people today buy Mac is only because they always have the ability to go back to windows if they want so, thus enjoying nice hardware with the OS of their choice.
going to ARM will kill the Mac sales.

Its not, people did buy a lot of PowerPC Macs too. The reason macs are more popular now is because of the iphones success, sales didn't go from nothing to a lot in 2005 to 2006. You are generalizing very much because not everyone has been a windows user. Mac was released before windows, just a year but still if some people choose mac because of the GUI in -84, I dont think all of them would change to windows a year after. Sure it costed less so that might have been the reason for a lot of people. Apple II was at once the most popular computer in american schools (i think), so some people maybe wanted to use apple computers in the future?
 
Why would you avoid it?

I'm sure someone else has already thought of it and mentioned it, but what if Apple introduces OS XI and it runs on ARM or a hybrid of ARM and Intel and brings some crazy new innovative features with it?

A hybrid chipset seems like solution seems like it would be problematic in implementing.

I think the ARM architecture is not the best fitting solution for desktop computing. Additionally, running windows for many folks is a requirement. I need it for my job and while I love what OSX brings to the table I think its a mistake if Apple were to transition over to the ARM platform completely.

I do think this will be a low end, low cost product, kind of like the chromebook.
 
I get the feeling the rumored 12" Retina MacBook Air may be the first ARM-based model seeing a how it's supposedly too thin for a clickable trackpad. A device that thin would require a cooler and more efficient processor.

This is a valid piont.
 
Well I am absolutely certain the public don't want a glorified iPad as a desktop computer for $2000.
Got any links t0 those servers? And I'm guessing they will be running totally custom built OS's using all those cores? Hardly comparable to an ARM based desktop PC.

$2000? Where did you dream up that figure? If Apple release anything ARM-based, it's going be sat between an iPad and an Air.

If ARM is sufficient for a server ( FWIW, Linux has been on ARM for quite a while, so it's hardly custom ) it's more than capable in a "desktop" running Safari or playing a movie. Seeing as Google isn't working well for you today, try this, this, or this.

Have a read of some of the articles on Ars or Anandtech about the performance of the A7.
 
Power users never see the truth in front of them. We are living in a world now where people are using their ipads more than their desktops.

Why do you think Apple loves to show those videos with people being so "productive" on their iphones and ipads?

Apple wants the CONTROL that ARM will provide.

They want to be the first laptop that can tout an all-day (24 Hour) battery life.

A fanless laptop with a killer screen that displays facebook or some other ****** site in amazing glory is all the average consumer is looking for. Throw in a "somewhat" more affordable price tag and crazy battery life and most people will eat it up.

As for power users I figure most can stick with Intel stuff until the ARM stuff catches up. It's definitely moving at a much brisker pace then INTEL currently.
 
Mac Rumors needs to bring back voting down posts.

Guess this is my last mac. If it happens i'll switch to Sony's line of machines. They make some good looking laptops.
This is asinine, you make a definite statement based in a rumor on a Apple rumors site. On top of that you express that the only thing important to you is the look of the laptop. Nice!


You do understand none of your programs will work right? Different processor instructions which will require emulation if available at all to work. Plus you won't be able to dual boot windows.

You do understand that isn't a problem for most users right? If the device is actually running Mac OS Apple could simply demand that developers have ARM and i86 version for the App Store. Since most people use the App Store or HomeBrew, applications for the machine won't be a problem.

Back when I switched to the Mac (2008) the idea of being able to dual boot and run Windows was significant. Guess how much I use that capability now - zip, zero, not at all. I do run Linux in a VM but Linux runs on ARM too. In a nut shell you are trying to explode a minor issue, for a small minority, into a huge problem for the general user base. The problem is it doesn't reflect how Apples user base approaches the use of computers these days. Let's face it many users see E-Mail and web access as the priority features of any computer.
 
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