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Sounds like a mad dash to nowhere.

Unfortunately I have been. I've tested our various Windows ultrabooks this past year (ugh) and even have a Surface Pro 3 on order.
If you are serious about Surface Pro, I'd have to question your judgement. I can't see a rational argument to support that device in any business. If you have one I'd like to hear it.
The desktop situation isn't a huge change anyways since I have a "gaming" rig already set up next to my iMac/MB Air that 2+ years old but still more powerful.
Oh wow a gaming rig that is more powerful than a Mac Book Air - who would have guessed.
Biggest issue will be transitioning out of iPhoto and a few other non-Windows apps. We'll see.

Bye bye! It really sounds like you are making irrational moves here.
 
There is a place for the correct processors

Mobile processor should be kept to mobile devices.
Sales for the following devices ain't that fantastic anyway:
ARMlaptop_zps17b21a26.png
 
Mobile processor should be kept to mobile devices.
Sales for the following devices ain't that fantastic anyway:
Image

Totally disagree. These are not 'mobile processors', these are processors that have qualities that make them suitable for smart phones.

If they gain qualities that make them suitable for laptop use (a bit more grunt), then that's just fine and you'd hope would come with existing advantages like low power consumption.

Edit: Low sales of the above devices have little to do with the processor inside them and more to do with the OS.
 
Well, this is disheartening news, if true.

I think it would be a mistake for Apple to do this, but I wouldn't be surprised if they did it.

I just don't understand what the hell is going on over there these days.
 
What advantages does an ARM processor have for Mac Pros, it simply doesn't have the same level of horse power that intel cpus have. The MP is the one computer that apple is selling for our power and performance. You can't get that with an arm processor.

I don't think apple is going to embrace ARM completely but offer a low cost model. Will that translate into giving intel the heave ho? I hope not because I for one will be on a different platform at that point. I'd rather not spend 1,500 for a laptop that will be less powerful then an intel and cannot run windows.

I didn't say they'd change the Mac Pro right away, I said it would slowly take over the Mac lineup starting with their cheapest machines. I believe they're going to make server ARM processors starting this year, who knows how capable they'll be in 5 years? I think the Mac Pro would be the last to go ARM.
 
Thats a GPU task, generally.


You do the typical mistake of assuming that clock speed is the sole determinant of a processor's speed.
It isn't a typical mistake, CPU performance can scale with clock speed if the supporting circuitry keeps up.
Cyclone (and indeed all ARM CPUs) only attains its 'reasonable' speed if its workload is very narrow and very focused.
This is baloney, Cyclone has proven itself in a wide array of workloads on the iPad.
Its branche prediction is vastly inadequate and inferior. This causes two problems:
Well for one it isn't that bad considering the size of the chip and two you assume it won't get better.
1) It limits how well the CPU scales at higher frequencies. At higher frequencies, the prediction falls more and more behind - and the performance bottleneck gravitates towards its memory bandwidth. Intel devices are significantly better when working with larger datasets.
Apple can easily address this with improvements to the Memory interface and the caches supporting the GPUs. RAM and caches play a significant role in keeping Intels cores running and are in fact bottlenecked through the RAM interface. In Apples A7 case the bottleneck is significant due to the GPU load on that interface.

In a nut shell the A7 cores could do much better with improvements to memory and caching without touching the core at all. However I don't think Apple will leave those cores untouched in future A series SoC.
2) It limits how well the processor handles larger and more diverse workloads (which are most of your 'everyday' things).
Maybe to some extent but you fail to realize that the cores are small allowing many onto a piece of silicon. Cores are an advantage in portable devices because in a good desiring they are near zero power when not in use.
Geekbench is a very poor benchmark for a CPUs overall capacity because the benchmark itself is extremely small. A significant parts of the CPU is never actually tested in Geekbench.
Well that we agree with. Get away from Geekbench and we see that A7 is in fact a good core. It is a core that needs a much better I/O subsystem to deliver goi results.
There isn't any ARM CPU even close to currently matching one Intel's 'Big Core' x86. Forcing them to that performance results in dreadful power efficiency.
(Heck, even at the iPad speeds Haswell sports superior performance-per-watt, it just can't do extreme sleep levels as well)
This isn't true either. Years ago Global Foundries was touting ARM core running on what is now an old process, they where able to hit very high clock rates on those processes. Currently Haswell does well because Intel does have a process lead not an architecture design lead. Intel is also blowing its chances to maintain that lead at 14 nm so we could very well see 14 nm ARM based machines early in 2015.

Oh and by the way the ability to sleep a processor is far more important these days than a slight power advantage at full performance.
You're making the assumption that the software actually scales with more cores. This is not the norm.
It is also a mistake to assume that one app is important to most users. On the contrary most people do multiple things at the same time on their machines even if the don't realize it. Overall system performance is enhanced by more cores.
Some workloads can be scaled quite easily, but a lot can't. And most workloads see an increasing amount of dependency collisions the more cores you shove in. Thats also before considering the increasing overhead cost on the CPU scheduler.
Obviously the benefits of cores depends upon the application but you have to separate that from the benefits to the system. Most user apps though do benefit from more cores as they are multithreaded or use supporting processes. The proof is in the pudding and the fact that nobody is going back to single core machines.
Indeed, one of Apple's advantages in their iOS devices is that they only have two cores. It benefits many types of workloads which cannot be parallelized (e.g. they can only run on 1/2 cores), and also provides a more consistent performance profile.
It isn't an advantage at all for apps, it instead allows Apple simple hardware solutions to power management. In fact due to Apples low clock rates used to manage power single threaded apps are at a real disadvantage on iOS devices. This is why Apple pushes GCD and other technologies that use both cores.
It also makes it easier for the software developers, since they only need to keep two cores in mind - rather than 3 or 4. Its very easy to introduce non-obvious or downright weird bugs when parallelizing.
The number of cores has no bearing on parallelizing bugs. More cores just means the bugs pop up more. In general though many of the parallelizing features in iOS reduce the complexity for developers.

Its pretty much the reason AMD has completely failed in the x86 market: They over-emphasized many weak cores over few strong like Intel did.

Well no, their engineers failed to deliver the cores promised, a big difference. In the end they had to market what they had. By the way the story is much different when BRAZOS is compared to ATOM, in a real sense AMD hit that one out of the ball park. AMD hasn't completely failed in the market, they just haven't competed well at the high end. In the middle and low end I have no problem with AMD's chips. Mullins, Kaveri and the other recent chips are very worthy of consideration.

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Well, this is disheartening news, if true.
Then you don't understand what is happening here. In a nut shel to continue to innovate they need access to the silicon! It really is that simple.

I think it would be a mistake for Apple to do this, but I wouldn't be surprised if they did it.
What choice do they have if Intel won't open up its silicon. Their only choice is AMD if they stay i86. Go to ARM and they have basically unlimited solutions they can leverage. Everything from in house solutions to products from AMD, Samsung, TI, Qualcom and a long list of others. Companies by the way willing to partner with Apple.

Frankly it would be a mistake not to go ARM long term.
I just don't understand what the hell is going on over there these days.

Try a little harder. Look at a motherboard from an Apple PC from 10-20 years ago an imagine all of that innovation built into one piece of silicon. That is where the industry is going.
 
I think we're going to see Apple and Microsoft becoming more and more cooperative in the near future. The enemy of my enemy is my friend. Right now, Intel is more of an enemy to Macs than Windows is. Taking 40% of the bill of materials for a Mac is arguably more expensive than what little change there is in Windows' market capitalization by taking OS X features. Microsoft is being canibalized by lower priced tablets because OEM manufacturers can't lower prices any more thanks to Intel's high chip prices. Microsoft and Apple won't be singing kumbaya, but they both want to move towards ARM and away from Intel to be more competitive. Microsoft even lowered their Windows licensing fee for OEMs so they could compete better. You know they hate that.

All I'm saying is that both companies want to develop more software for ARM devices and they'll find each other working toward a similar goal. It's more Android VS Microsoft and Apple than it is Apple VS Microsoft.
 
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What could happen, is that it could run both.
Yeah people don't grasp this at all.
Both re-compiled OS X app as well as iOS apps (modified for larger device displays, which may happen very soon :). Mouse-based apps present targets that are too small or hard to see on touch devices. But touch apps present easy to hit, well organized targets for a mouse or a trackpad, and are thus even easier to use by older people who need reading glasses (the biggest growth populace these days).

I run many of my own iOS apps in the Simulator on my MBA. Works great. Too bad developers don't make more of these builds available.
Nor do they grasp that almost ever iOS app ever made first ran on a i86 based machine. Not an emulator but rather an app compiled to i86 and ran in that simulator.
 
That may change entirely in a couple weeks. Wait for WWDC.

It has been changing and Apple has warned developers for generations of iOS not to assume screen resolution or pixel counts. The writing is on the wall here, Apple has been preparing for other iOS devices for sometime now.
 
Stating the obvious, Apple is allowed to introduce and I am allowed to evaluate.

250 page phD theses and proper text editing are not the only part that lacks software support in iOS platform and iPad environment currently. There is much that can't be done currently because of limitations: rich photo editing and drawing beyond finger painting (for which there is a hardware limitation too), rich cad/cam editing beyond passive checking. I dont know about coding, is it really possible to do that properly with iOS and iPhone/iPad? Or scientific applications for chemists, physicists, biologists, mathematicians, are there capable iPad solutions of them?
My experience is, that there is still a gap between OSX and iOS. ARM laptops and Minis might do many of these tasks in the future if we look at the theoretical computation capability, but that OSX-level software has to be available and price tagged, before I can evaluate whether the transition is worthy. I am not planning to make a preorder and pay beforehand in this case. I am that boring.
 
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I see ARM-based MacBooks facing some of the very same hurdles as Surface RT products. Mainly, what apps would run on one, besides Apple applications? Unless an emulator was provided, but that would be inefficient as hell in terms of battery consumption.

iOS ones that already run on ARM? New ones that are easy to port from existing projects that use Apple's SDK?

If this is something new and fragmented instead of something that integrates the iOS/OS X experience in a good way, I expect to be annoyed.

It could be a way to integrate Apple TV / AirPlay receiver functionality without running a multicore CPU during those times... Ship devices with a low power CPU for those purposes, and make it consistent throughout the line.
 
That's an interesting idea.

I am thinking: no way does Apple want to have apps optimized for two different user interface models running on one device (touch vs. pointing device).

But I admit I could be wrong...
  • Like you, I've run iOS apps in the simulator (as I've developed them) and it didn't feel "wrong" to use the mouse pointer with them. Using the simulator doesn't work well for two-finger gestures, but I've been using a mouse. A trackpad, of course, will do that quite well.
  • I've done Windows "Metro" development, which supports pointer and touch and I think it works well either way. (Judging from the Internets I might be the only one?) The point being: it seems reasonable to me for a single UX design to support both a pointer-based and touch-based UX that works quite well.
I see it as a temporary fix for the no ARM software problem.
I'm half convinced you're right. (Maybe slightly less than half convinced -- if I had to bet right now, I'd bet no.)

I think Apple will really want to avoid complexity, confusion and ambiguity in their UX.
Confusion is a big issue. However complexity is one of those things that is hard to judge. I'd love to see an ARM based design with full access to the same Unix goodies Mac OS currently has. If that platform also runs an iOS app or two all the better.

The funny thing here is that IOS apps are often better because they avoid the kitchen sink mentality. That is they are more limited in function and often like GUI Unix apps.
I think that was the fundamental sin of Windows 8: it runs in two distinct UX modes. The user needs to figure out how/when/why to switch between them and has to deal with the fact that everything works differently between modes. It's ghastly. E.g., when you go to open a web page you stop and think, wait do I want to open this in Metro-mode or regular mode? And when it turns out you get it wrong you curse yourself
Having iOS apps run in a window should take care of this issue. I have to say though that Windows 8 biggest problem is that it is a crap OS. It just feel like a mess even off the tablet.
.

If Apple can create a UX that feels unified between iOS-based app and OS X apps then I think it's possible.
Unified no I don't want that. I still want the platform to support traditional Mac Apps and overall versatility. Support for iOS apps would be there to bridge the no software problem.

In the end I don't think it will be a huge issue to get developers on board doing ARM binaries. If they have followed Apples advice and used good practices in developing their apps the ARM binaries will be simple. I can see Apple giving developers a 90 day window to build in ARM support for their Mac OS apps. Even then some apps won't be converted. The big problem is that 90 days is a very long time for users this the need to support iOS apps.
The iOS UX itself will have to evolve. Right now on iOS apps are all full-screen one-window apps. That will have to change.. but perhaps that's already in the works with side-by-side multitasking?
I really don't understand the issues here, you run an app in a window sized to that of an iPad. You don't need multiple windows here anymore than you do on an iPad.

As to side by side mutitasking I don't see that offering the user a lot as flipping through apps is already pretty nice. However the really nice thing here is that sued by side apps implies more RAM. More than anything else iOad needs more RAM. This is where a laptop Mac OS device would have a big advantage, more RAM would significantly impact performance for the better.
Interesting idea.

(Just to point out, though: this is all independent of a CPU architecture change. That is, while it makes some sense to do it together, Apple could start supporting iOS apps on OS X with or without a CPU change.)
True.

The problem is that most people mis the biggest reason as to why Apple would do this. That is access to the silicon to allow Apples innovation to take place. Until Intel opens up there really is little for Apple to pursue other than ARM.

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Without traditional Mac OS capabilities an ARM based laptop would be worthless in my opinion. I don't think and really hope that they don't screw this up. However we might not get the exact environment now seen in Mac OS.

Stating the obvious, Apple is allowed to introduce and I am allowed to evaluate.

250 page phD theses and proper text editing are not the only part that lacks software support in iOS platform and iPad environment currently. There is much that can't be done currently because of limitations: rich photo editing and drawing beyond finger painting (for which there is a hardware limitation too), rich cad/cam editing beyond passive checking. I dont know about coding, is it really possible to do that properly with iOS and iPhone/iPad? Or scientific applications for chemists, physicists, biologists, mathematicians, are there capable iPad solutions of them?
My experience is, that there is still a gap between OSX and iOS. ARM laptops and Minis might do many of these tasks in the future if we look at the theoretical computation capability, but that OSX-level software has to be available and price tagged, before I can evaluate whether the transition is worthy. I am not planning to make a preorder and pay beforehand in this case. I am that boring.

Hey boring is OK. Personally it is all about what is actually announced and how well it performs. However if there is a four or more core ARM based Mini coming with real Mac OS capabilities I'd be all over the platform. If I can't do the things I currently do on my Mac then obviously it isn't a viable replacement. It should be easy for Apple to find the happy medium here as far as GUI behavior goes though.
 
This is the point isn't it. An ARM only OSX would never work. It's not going to have the power to run Say FCPX or dozens of other Pro apps.
.
The Air is highly questionable for these sorts of apps and I can see an ARM based Mac coming close to or exceeding the performance of today's Air.
So everything going to ARM... .well it's just not going to happen is it.
Nope and frankly nobody expects that.
But what people are not considering here is what if this is NOT OSX or some form or ARM RT thing at all ... but iOS in a laptop form. Perhaps touch screen / with a trackpad control too. could even be a hybrid device with a removable keyboard etc.
Anything is possible but if all it provides is traditional iOS support it would be a non sale for me. I already have an iPad, I don't need a laptop emulating that machine. When I go out looking for a new Laptop or even a Mini I'm looking for support of Mac OS as the primary OS. They can paint it with a new GUI but I need access to the Unix subsystem and even the X11 support from time to time.
This is MacRumors after all and the actual source is not exactly spot on very often or infact....ever!

Plus the report is confused. However that doesn't mean there isn't some truth there. For one I expect more iOS products. Another issue is the long gap between Mini releases which could point to a new device. Further I see a real need to do this for Apple from a technical standpoint.
 
For all the "crap" the Chromebook has gotten on here - it would not surprise me if Apple released a similar type advice. Given their expansion into the cloud, control of their ARM chips, etc...
 
Only Apple fanbois can get excited about getting the same laptop but with slower processor only because this processor was developed by their beloved company.
 
Change processors again and I'll never buy another Mac again. The downgrade from PowerPC to Intel was enough for me.

Which of course is a joke on your part because I don't think you are that stupid to believe that Intel processors of the time where slower. The fact of the matter is that most users reported very good performance out of the box for those new machines. Why? Because of the vastly superior integer performance the Intel chips of the time hard.

Of course you can find a benchmark here or there to prove any point, but for most people Intel was an immediate win and frankly Intel went on a performance binge shortly after.

By the way most of the arguments here against ARM are directly or indirectly related to integer performance. This argument is only of partial value anymore though.
 
For all the "crap" the Chromebook has gotten on here - it would not surprise me if Apple released a similar type advice. Given their expansion into the cloud, control of their ARM chips, etc...

And the irony is that the high end chromebooks with Intel CPUs will actully be more powerful than Macbooks with Apple processors.

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Which of course is a joke on your part because I don't think you are that stupid to believe that Intel processors of the time where slower. The fact of the matter is that most users reported very good performance out of the box for those new machines. Why? Because of the vastly superior integer performance the Intel chips of the time hard.

Of course you can find a benchmark here or there to prove any point, but for most people Intel was an immediate win and frankly Intel went on a performance binge shortly after.

By the way most of the arguments here against ARM are directly or indirectly related to integer performance. This argument is only of partial value anymore though.

Well you just made his point stronger. Switch to a different procesor was very painful even though new CPU was more powerful. Now imagine switching to a new CPU again but this time to a slower one.
 
simply because it was the only thing that ran windows and anything other than windows was crap... and imho that was a pretty low benchmark.

I'm not sure what you mean by "crap" but there were a number of alternatives which were significant technological improvements over Windows in the late 80's and early 90's - they just got buried by Microsoft/Intel.
 
For all the "crap" the Chromebook has gotten on here - it would not surprise me if Apple released a similar type advice. Given their expansion into the cloud, control of their ARM chips, etc...

That would constitute a 3rd platform though, if you are talking about the OS. If you are only referring to the ARM part I don't see how they are similar, apart from the CPU, and I don't think Chromebook runs a 64 bit ARM does it.

And the irony is that the high end chromebooks with Intel CPUs will actully be more powerful than Macbooks with Apple processors.

Hinging on fact that you have compared them, which you haven't.
 
Who really cares about brute power when looking for a low end machine. I really don't get this mentality as nobody demands brute power from an iPhone.

How would an ARM processor stack up to a Quad-Core i7 when doing something like compressing 1080p video or 4K video?
Who knows? Seriously we haven't seen this chip yet so we have no idea what Apple will put into it. In the real world chips have specialized hardware to do encodes and decodes so the ARM CPU doesn't play a huge role here. If you are talking workstation encoding then you are completely out of place here.
I seriously doubt any ARM processor has the power to handle serious workloads comparable to a top-end intel desktop processor, yet.
Again who cares!!!####. Come on this by all measures is a low end laptop being talked about here, it Is not a workstation by any means.

Given that though there is nothing, absolutely nothing stopping Apple from building a workstation class ARM processor. Really guys it is an engineering problem don't turn this into a mental health problem.
But seriously, does anybody know anything about the real brute power that an ARM processor can dish out with serious processor intensive tasks like video compression or 3D rendering, etc?

So you talk about brute power when discussing uses that require dedicated hardware. You do realize that 3D is highly dependent upon the GPU right? Basically you are obsessing about the CPU when it has a trivial impact on what you are claiming to be interested in.
 
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