Apple Testing ARM Based Mac Prototypes with Large Magic Trackpad?

[jlc1978]

Yes. A post-PC device is supposed to be something different. A laptop equipped with an ARM processor is not a post-PC device. It is a PC. The iPad may well evolve and become as powerful as a full-blown laptop, but then will it still be a post-PC device? Won't it turn itself into a PC? Does this post-PC speech makes any sense after all?

At some point it just becomes semantics. Is the PC a post-terminal device? Or just a more powerful terminal? As they devices evolve and converge post-PC makes sense if you consider it a different way of doing much the same things with a new form factor and capabilities.

Tablets are becoming more and more powerful. But they are different. Laptops always run the same operating system as desktops, they were just less powerful. Tablets, they run a different operating system. The iPad is just different. It is supposed to do less.

They do less now but are converging with PCs. To a large extent, the OS is irrelevant as long as the machine is file compatible across platforms.

On another note, I wonder what the US team coach is thinking? No Landon Donovan? Using this World Cup as practice for 4 years form now since we drew a tough division?

 

[Val-kyrie]

...Anyway folks, don't panic. What would be strange and worrying is if Apple were not hedging their bets and experimenting with OS X on ARM. A wholesale switch to ARM is possible, but not probable. Seems to me that these ARM laptops have two possible purposes:

1. Memo to Intel: Other processors are available - please remember that in future negotiations and make sure we're first on the waiting list for Broadwell.

2. Its the Apple answer to Chromebook, should Chromebook take off - in which case, legacy OS X software is probably irrelevant.

This makes sense, except that the infrastructure in the US will not support the use of Chromebook-styled systems for the masses. The US simply lacks the access or necessary bandwidth (at least 10mb/s) in too many places. Moreover, too many businesses and individuals (including me) refuse to use cloud-based storage for sensitive information.

Possible purpose #3: A wholesale switch to ARM.

Hopefully any possible transition is not dictated by Jobs' declaration of nuclear war on Google.

 

[theluggage]

Yup, that's a most probable future snapshot of the development platforms (unless something else comes up out of nowhere in the meanwhile). But it's not there yet, and it'll take some more time to get there.

...Apple have quite a track record for pre-empting such things (see: USB, no floppies, no optical drive, all-flash-storage...) They've already launched a Mac Pro which, although its got an Intel chip, really doesn't make sense unless developers adopt OpenCL and get the GPU to do the heavy lifting.

Withdrawing now an entire desktop line from Intel and AMD it will definitely isolate apple.

...but there's no evidence that they're planning to do it right now. What we have right now is rumours of Macbook Air-style machines that might fill a niche between the iPad and a 'proper' MacBook for people who want web, email, media and 'web apps' in a laptop form-factor with a proper keyboard (try using a tablet + MS-style keyboard cover *on your lap*!).

Give it a few years and the world might be ready for a serious ARM-based workstation. The ARM will then have come full-circle (PDF).

Yup, back in the late 80s, the ARM was a superchip that left the 286 choking on its dust. Unfortunately, nobody ever got fired for buying IBM, plus, back then, PC software was very, very hardware dependent.

 

[hansonjohn590]

Apple did something like this with PowerPC long ago, and it held up quite well over time. Right now, people aren't looking for performance anymore.

They want compatibility....

SEE: Surface RT

 

[derek4484]

My opinion is that an A7 or A8 or a quad core Arm Cortex A15 chip would more likely be more power than anybody would need in a MacBook Air...If I spend $2000 on a MacBook Pro, I want a real processor in it, give me the Intel Core i5/i7 chip.

 

[nad8e]

Or just stick with Intel: A major reason many people stated buying Mac's, myself included.

If I'm going to keep it plugged into a power source most of the time and with battery tech evolving, I don't need to sacrifice processing for lower power consumption.

 

[jnpy!$4g3cwk]

revives rumors that Apple is actively developing ARM processor based Macs. According to a source that they describe as reliable, Apple has prototypes of several ARM-based machines, including an iMac, Mac mini, and 13" Notebook with 4-8 64-bit ARM Quad-core processors

I would question whether there are ARM processors ready to take over from Intel E3 and E5 series processors at the high end, but, it absolutely makes sense from a battery life/heat standpoint, for the Air and the smaller MBPs.

The only question in my mind is whether a critical mass of third-party software vendors would go along.

 

[antonis]

...Apple have quite a track record for pre-empting such things (see: USB, no floppies, no optical drive, all-flash-storage...) They've already launched a Mac Pro which, although its got an Intel chip, really doesn't make sense unless developers adopt OpenCL and get the GPU to do the heavy lifting.

Indeed they have. And that's what most of us love apple for. But, to be honest, most of those pioneer changes, although bold for their time, were more or less a sure bet and nowhere near the danger of being isolated (e.g. a new port interface that it is established as a standard therefore PCs will catch up eventually, the all-flash storage). I mean, these are changes that didn't depend heavily on the wishful thinking that "all others will follow". I think we'll all agree here that abandoning a platform and switching to a new one is a different and by far a more scary story.

...but there's no evidence that they're planning to do it right now. What we have right now is rumours of Macbook Air-style machines that might fill a niche between the iPad and a 'proper' MacBook for people who want web, email, media and 'web apps' in a laptop form-factor with a proper keyboard (try using a tablet + MS-style keyboard cover *on your lap*!).

Give it a few years and the world might be ready for a serious ARM-based workstation. The ARM will then have come full-circle (PDF).

If there's such a gap, they could fill it, indeed. But they will not go very far if they don't include a strong deal with 3rd party s/w houses for games, too. The target group of such a - theoretical for now - machine will certainly consider this a strong decision factor.

Yup, back in the late 80s, the ARM was a superchip that left the 286 choking on its dust. Unfortunately, nobody ever got fired for buying IBM, plus, back then, PC software was very, very hardware dependent.

It sure was. And by the early 00s IBM's G5 was a very powerful 64bit CPU. But it couldn't cover all of Apple's needs (e.g. no laptop version), so the deal broke. I've seen Apple struggling back then, trying to keep their G4 machines competitive with Intel PCs, and keep falling behind more and more. They jumped on the Intel wagon, not a minute too soon.

Who knows... Maybe Intel will prove to have more aces in their sleeves in order to remain on their throne. Or not.

 

[elgrecomac]

Bootcamp, VMware Fusion

A big reason I switched to a Apple is because I could dual boot windows (and run it in a VM at basically native speed). As much as I like OSX, most of my work still requires windows, so if they switched to ARM, I'd be switching back to PCs

I just bought a 13" MPB with 16 GB of RAM and a 256 SSD. On my old MBP I ran bootcamp to get good performance out of my business-specific Windows apps (MS Visio and MS Project). With the new MBP running Fusion allocating 4 GB of RAM and 2 cores to Window 7, the performance is very fast. In fact, I see no need to create a bootcamp partition given the speed I get with Fusion on this new computer. I am living quite happily in both worlds.

I'm not sure which Windows apps you are running but, I suspect, even with an ARM based MBP, Fusion with 4 GB of RAM will handle your Windows-based business needs...but games may be a different issue.

 

[macduke]

Actually the problem today in the iPad is RAM at the top of the list followed by flash storage and limitations in iOS. A7 by itself isn't keeping pro apps off the iPad.

Yes, I forgot to mention that. It's something that I bring up often. I love my Retina Mini, but the 1GB of ram kinda kills some of the potential of the A7. I think an iPad Pro would have at least 4GB which should be enough for low-end pros, such as people who do occasional photography editing in the field or work with a less complicated audio recording setup. I love using Lightroom on my Mini, but wish it had more features. I imagine some of the features are missing due to ram, and some are due to it being a new product that needs to mature. But if Apple is going to continue to stay on the lower end of RAM, they need to do a better job optimizing their software. I hate it when I switch between tabs and sometimes it reloads the tab when I come back. This is especially painful when filling out a form online or switching to another tab to quickly check something when I'm writing a post online. Then I lose all my work. Perhaps they need faster flash storage and the ability to cache to disk for certain tasks.

I also knew that the iPhone accelerator runs on the Mac, but I didn't realize how exactly it ran (I've designed an app that is coming out soon for the University of Missouri, so I've been working with a developer and seen things in a round-about way). If it was just emulated, then the hardware of a desktop would more than make up for a performance difference but wouldn't be optimal for day to day use. If it's native, then yay. Should be easier to port CC and other apps to ARM than it was to go from PPC to Intel. I think that transition was also more difficult because they were switching how the apps work at their core—was it a transition of older apps to Carbon and newer apps to native Cocoa? I didn't follow Apple as closely back then, mainly because I was a teenager who couldn't afford Macs and built my own PCs for gaming.

 

[MarkNY]

How about using those 4-8 quad-core ARMs in an Apple TV gaming machine also?

 

[Mac Heretic]

I'm not sure which Windows apps you are running but, I suspect, even with an ARM based MBP, Fusion with 4 GB of RAM will handle your Windows-based business needs...but games may be a different issue.

I thought that it is practically unefficient, if not virtually impossible, to emulate Intel with ARM by using Fusion or Parallels type solutions? PowerPC was never able to emulate Intel satisfactorily. I wonder what would be the estimated power loss if it were to happen. And then there is the GPU too...

 

[balamw]

I thought that it is practically unefficient, if not virtually impossible, to emulate Intel with ARM by using Fusion or Parallels type solutions?

Yeah, Fusion/Parallels have good performance because they don't actually do any emulation, just virtualization which the processors and systems have been designed to support better and better with things like VT-x.

That said, I've seen several reports that true emulation on a Raspberry Pi (cheap ARM computer) is up to ~486 speeds so it's not inconceivable that they might actually be able to get "Core" level performance from a beefier ARM.

They might even be able to do something like what Intel already does. Provide an x86/x64 layer in firmware in the processor that translates to the underlying RISC processors. Kinda like what Transmeta was trying to do.

B

 

[deconstruct60]

Well, all you said is right, but only from a theoretical perspective.

I cannot write a 250-page document on my iPad. No iPad software supports cross-references or other advanced features.

There is someone here throwing around unsubstantiated theories here.... only it isn't me.


"... • RESEARCH/ACADEMIC ORIENTED FEATURES
TOP Writer has special features to write academic documents. Cite while you type from your sources, insert footnotes, headers & footer and tables! Add, manage and delete references right on the App.

• REFERENCES AND BIBLIOGRAPHY MANAGEMENT
Use text styles and create auto Table Of Contents and insert automatic Bibliography on your documents based on the references you have. ..."
https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/top-writer-app-word-processor/id723701145?mt=8


"... • Automatic numbering of headings, figures, and tables
• Table of contents, list of figures, and list of tables
• Cross-references
• Footnotes and endnotes ..."
https://itunes.apple.com/au/app/ux-write-ipad-word-processor/id538278306?mt=8

A Comparison table with a column for whether present on iOS or not:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_reference_management_software

[ other paper/research tools on iOS

Bib and cite apps :
http://www.educatorstechnology.com/2014/03/the-best-citation-and-bibliography-apps.html

research tools :

http://www.educatorstechnology.com/2014/03/20-must-have-ipad-apps-for-student.html

]
The reality is that you don't want to write a 250 page dissertation using tools that you don't already know and are familiar with in a previous effort. It is not that it cannot be done in a reasonable way.

Of course it is a possibility. Theoretically, everything is possible.

It is about probable, not possible. And you are way, way, way off.

I need the features now. And the iPad does not offer them now.

Software feature 53 , 42 , and 234 have little to do with being able to write and complete a dissertation. This misdirection you are engaging in propping up some specific tools and feature set as being the only practical path to a finished dissertation is weak. That whole theory is woefully lacking in creditable support outside of your myopic toolset.

 

[Val-kyrie]

A hybrid chipset seems like solution seems like it would be problematic in implementing.

I think the ARM architecture is not the best fitting solution for desktop computing. Additionally, running windows for many folks is a requirement. I need it for my job and while I love what OSX brings to the table I think its a mistake if Apple were to transition over to the ARM platform completely.

I do think this will be a low end, low cost product, kind of like the chromebook.

Extremetech just posted an article detailing the possibility that AMD could develop ARM and x86 cores on the same chip. Page 3 offers specific ways this could be accomplished.

I think a solution that might work would be a dual-mode laptop, with both an ARM and i3/5/7 chip inside.

The [extremetech] article I cited [in this post] explores this possibility. Such a solution would require an extensive rewrite of the OS to know which processes to pass on to each CPU, but given Apple's control over the hardware and software, it would be possible.

This is not going to be about the CPU. Yes, intel will be faster for some time. But they are not giving apple what they want.
Apple wants a fast cpu, with an amazing GPU, low power consumption, for a good price. Out of the 4, intel can deliver only 1.

Apple will probably want to do a retina macbook in a fanless design, with great battery life and competitive price. Intel chips don't allow for this design(afaik).

Broadwell allows for just such a design.

...an ecosystem which is now shrinking, as mobile devices make consumers finally realise that they don't need MS Office to write letters or Photoshop to manage their snapshot collection, and with the increasing use of platform-independent development and high level languages.

Actually, my daughter (jr. high) was just accepted into a college level math and science program. Part of the process required submissions in MS Word and PowerPoint. Although some public/private (middle and high) schools may not require MS software, I have yet to find a college which does not. Losing the ability to run Intel versions of Office would mean purchasing a computer other than a Mac for our daughter who needs complete compatibility.

[Edit: Yes, we run licensed Windows VMs in our household.]

 

[Mac Heretic]

"... • RESEARCH/ACADEMIC ORIENTED FEATURES
TOP Writer has special features to write academic documents. Cite while you type from your sources, insert footnotes, headers & footer and tables! Add, manage and delete references right on the App.

Those are good finds indeed. Thanks. It shows that at least somebody tries to fill the gap. We have hope. I could not evaluate those further, because they do not support my iPad 1st gen, that brilliant web browsing machine (support for older iOS versions is not so great nowadays). But hopefully some will. According to sources, f.ex. Papers seems to have had its share of issues and bugs in the past, so some care does not harm.

UX Write works with iPhones too. Writing PhD with an iPhone, that's future. Somebody should really do that .

 

[subsonix]

For Metro apps, it does....

No it doesn't, it uses JIT compilation. A fat binary contains native code for many architectures, which means an OS X binary can potentially run on both. There is no difference or duality in that scenario. Windows 8 is a confused OS, dual UI, dual architectures. The fact that there is a vast amount of Windows apps that does not run on RT, is the difference I attempted to point out.

 

[deconstruct60]

Certainly a 2-4 chip ARM system would have both higher benchmark performance

ARM has no inter chip package interconnect:

http://www.arm.com/products/system-ip/interconnect/index.php

ARM is primarily focused on on-chip core interconnect and latency. A 3rd party or "home grown" interpackage interconnect is dubious in low cost commercial products. Slimmer chance long term viable in a much higher margin server where price is less of an issue.

For relatively smaller individual core dies on-chip interconnect make FAR more sense that cobbling together whole chip packages.

and also lower chip costs than a low power Intel chip. Intel is pricey.

Lower than ATOM? For example the Z37000:

http://www.cpu-world.com/news_2014/2014051001_Intel_refreshes_Atom_Z3700_lineup.html

Chip costs is $20-40. How is Apple going to shave major dollars off of that price? Still using entirely compatible Intel chips Apple can drop the CPU costs about an order of magnitude. [ Sure they could go scrooge Mc Duck and shave $20 or so probably with integrated RAM in SoC and knocking a few features off the ATOM has but .... is that really going to radically change a Mac systems price? Probably not. Apple rounds to nearest hundred, $x99, anyway. ]

I for one would like to see Apple continue to differentiate UI with OS's. OSX(1-2xX86),

Apple has dropped the notion of multiple x86 packages. With 15 cores in a single package on the horizon they don't loose much coverage. The extremely clear trend line is that more cores per package comes for "free" by just waiting for the next iteration or two. At the mainstream end it is more so more GPGPU cores. At the higher package price end can get more x86.

Sure there is a fringe group that can use more than what fits inside of a single package. But this is a group that only has multiple core , non scaling, non float problems.

The GUI is an orthogonal issue.

iOS (1xARM), AppleTV (1xARM), iOS in the car (1xARM), now ARM laptop (2-4xARM).

Deeply flawed as for 4-10 cores there is no good reason to go to multiple packages:

1. First this is flawed in that CPU packages don't just contain CPU cores anymore. All of these packages from SoC ( ARM and ATOM ) designs all the way up Xeon E5-E7 have substantial non "general purpose" core transistor budgets. Doubling/tripling/quad up on the packages gets what? It gets alot more than just gp cores. Need 4 GPUs? Probably not. 4 USB controllers? Probably not.

2. Second, Car is far more SoC instance 1 talking to SoC instance 2. It isn't a shared memory or single instance situation.

3. The notion of "well throw 3-4 small cheap packages at the problem" is deeply flawed because one of the primary ways of getting to small, cheap packages is to throw out the inter package, cache coherency interconnect.
Another way is to toss RAM DIMM connectivity. In other words, higher integration ( memory , interconnects , etc) is what helps keep the cost (and size) down (e.g., fewer external interfaces ). Chuck those and also chuck the cost savings also.


4. if the iPad is offering "good enough" performance for folks to find utility in the apps then just one ARM SoC is quite likely just as "good enough" is packaged inside of a clamshell laptop. Effectively only really adding an attached keyboard. It necessarily isn't all that different. Writing longer text documents ( what a physical keyboard is good at) doesn't particularly demand more than 2-4 cores of "horsepower".

It follows Apple's statements that they do not intend to converge the OS code bases.

 

[deconstruct60]

UX Write works with iPhones too. Writing PhD with an iPhone, that's future. Somebody should really do that .

If phone screens keep getting bigger over time ...... difference between iPad mini and phone will fade.

Joking aside though, look at a laptop now. Sitting in fixed location and want 21.5"-27" screen? Plug it in and ta-da a desktop screen. Future phones could easily have docking stations where keyboard/monitor/etc sits on desk and just "eject" your Phone when it is time to take your personal computer mobile.

As long as large user population workloads computation requirements are plateauing, the Personal Computers are going to get smaller (and generally cheaper ) over time.

 

[Mildredop]

please.. just please no!!

Sounds like an interesting idea to me. Why do computers have to do everything at double-quick time? For a pro machine, I see the need, but not for me - all I do is send emails, browse the web and watch a bit of porn. I don't need a top-of-the-range Quad Core i7 for that.

I'd rather have increased battery life and cooler operation.

 

[Mr. Gates]

Yeyyyyy !

A chromebook with OSX on it ...

 

[thermodynamic]

[url=http://cdn.macrumors.com/im/macrumorsthreadlogodarkd.png]Image[/url]


French site MacBidouille revives rumors that Apple is actively developing ARM processor based Macs. According to a source that they describe as reliable, Apple has prototypes of several ARM-based machines, including an iMac, Mac mini, and 13" Notebook with 4-8 64-bit ARM Quad-core processors.

Image​

These machines are reportedly far along in development, and come with a new keyboard that incorporates a large-format Magic Trackpad. Apple might even be ready for an announcement but is reportedly hesitant to make the move.

MacBidouille isn't a frequent source of rumors, so its hard to gauge its source's credibility, but rumors of ARM-based Macs have been circulating for years. It seems likely that Apple has prototyped such devices, but many have doubted the feasibility of moving forward with such a plan.

The first inklings of such a plan might have come when Apple threatened to abandon Intel's chips if they didn't work to slash power consumption. While AMD might have been one way to go for Apple, the first rumors of an Apple migration from Intel to ARM processors appeared earlier that year. Later, a report claimed that Apple already had an ARM (A5) powered MacBook Air in their labs back in 2011.

An analysis in 2012 suggested that Apple shifting from Intel to ARM wasn't implausible but it faced several hurdles. The most significant one was Apple's own ARM chips being able to keep a pace with Intel's future roadmap.

Apple, however, has been making great strides in performance in their ARM processors. The A7 is described as desktop class even in an independent analysis. In fact, the A7 chip is currently being underutilized in Apple's iPhone and iPad devices, leaving some of its power untapped.

Article Link: Apple Testing ARM Based Mac Prototypes with Large Magic Trackpad?

AMD? Don't they produce more heat and use more watts, and have been slower and power-sucking for years?

http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/cpu/display/trinity-vs-ivy-bridge_12.html


I wonder how Creative Suite 6 will fare, since being on the tethered side of a leasing leash means more cost for me over the long run, and as a business I look at more than just upfront sticker costs. I look for value.

----------

Or just stick with Intel: A major reason many people stated buying Mac's, myself included.

If I'm going to keep it plugged into a power source most of the time and with battery tech evolving, I don't need to sacrifice processing for lower power consumption.

Yup.

At the time I wondered why AMD was not chosen. Then I'd read up on heat and power issues. AMD is lower-cost, but the differences justify Intel's higher cost.

With battery technology evolving, and ditto for Intel CPU specifications (power requirements are certainly better than in years' past)...

Lower power consumption has its place. But it's nice to have the power when one needs it. Hence the evolution of the Pro-class MacBook...

 

[mentaluproar]

AMD would be better off if GPGPU utilization was more common. What is holding them off is the developers.

 

[Simoleon547]

There is someone here throwing around unsubstantiated theories here.... only it isn't me.


"... • RESEARCH/ACADEMIC ORIENTED FEATURES
TOP Writer has special features to write academic documents. Cite while you type from your sources, insert footnotes, headers & footer and tables! Add, manage and delete references right on the App.

• REFERENCES AND BIBLIOGRAPHY MANAGEMENT
Use text styles and create auto Table Of Contents and insert automatic Bibliography on your documents based on the references you have. ..."
https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/top-writer-app-word-processor/id723701145?mt=8


"... • Automatic numbering of headings, figures, and tables
• Table of contents, list of figures, and list of tables
• Cross-references
• Footnotes and endnotes ..."
https://itunes.apple.com/au/app/ux-write-ipad-word-processor/id538278306?mt=8

A Comparison table with a column for whether present on iOS or not:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_reference_management_software

[ other paper/research tools on iOS

Bib and cite apps :
http://www.educatorstechnology.com/2014/03/the-best-citation-and-bibliography-apps.html

research tools :

http://www.educatorstechnology.com/2014/03/20-must-have-ipad-apps-for-student.html

]
The reality is that you don't want to write a 250 page dissertation using tools that you don't already know and are familiar with in a previous effort. It is not that it cannot be done in a reasonable way.




It is about probable, not possible. And you are way, way, way off.




Software feature 53 , 42 , and 234 have little to do with being able to write and complete a dissertation. This misdirection you are engaging in propping up some specific tools and feature set as being the only practical path to a finished dissertation is weak. That whole theory is woefully lacking in creditable support outside of your myopic toolset.

Apple isn't going to design their roadmap so the .5% of the population needing to write abnormally long documents for 2 years of their lives will buy it. They focus on the 90-95% and forget the rest. As they should. I don't want a computer designed to meet the needs I have in .5% of my usage model. It would suck. You don't like iPads for writing long documents? Fine. But changing the Mac line over to an A8 architecture isn't going to change anything. Microsoft will update their Office suite for a new Mac architecture. Don't doubt that for a second.

----------

Actually, my daughter (jr. high) was just accepted into a college level math and science program. Part of the process required submissions in MS Word and PowerPoint. Although some public/private (middle and high) schools may not require MS software, I have yet to find a college which does not. Losing the ability to run Intel versions of Office would mean purchasing a computer other than a Mac for our daughter who needs complete compatibility.

My father requires Word compatibility for his non-profit organization. He's probably written a hundred documents by now. He uses Pages. Pages can save and email the document as a word document. I use it on my iPad when I write marketing papers for my undergrad. It works just as well if not quicker and doesn't cost 70 or $100 a year for an office 365 subscription. Just a one time $10 for iPad or $20 for Mac purchase.
Keynote works the same and I find it a lot easier to make a presentation with it on an iPad than a pc. Plus the presentations don't have that stale powerpoint look. They're aesthetically better. Pages is still better with a Mac and keyboard though.

 

[driftless]

Pages is now free on Macs and iOS devices. I use Pages professionally, often on the iPad, and seamlessly exchange documents with folks using Word.