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OK... I am about to return my top-end 2011 MacBook Air and cancel my orders for two 27'' Thunderbolt displays.

I was going to use one upstairs (no issue there) and one downstairs with a DisplayPort monitor attached as a second monitor. But no... I can't do that.

Now, what's even worse, even if I replaced that DisplayPort monitor with a second Thunderbolt monitor it STILL wouldn't work because the Air doesn't support more than one monitor!

LAME!

WTF Apple. I am seriously about to return all my crap and just stick with my iMacs.

to be completely fair, the limitation of One Thunderbolt display has always been on the spec page for the MacBook Airs. It is a hard limitation of the HD3000 graphics not some conspiracy from Apple.

The only real news here is that Mini DisplayPort won't daisy chain. That one is a new discovery because it is known that mini DisplayPort monitors work off the Thunderbolt machines (seen that at the Apple Store) and that other posters have mini DisplayPort working through other Thunderbolt devices like the Promise Raid... as long as they are the "end" device. So that MDP wouldn't work plugged into Apple's OWN monitor seems to be more of a "jab in the face" because some people have it working when another Thunderbolt device is in between.. that's worth getting upset about as there's no reason for the limitation.
 
DUH. the point was for people to mix and match TB and existing MDP displays. dunno about you but its retarded to buy a TB display if my existing MDP screen works just to take advantage of multiple monitor support. di I actually "use" multiple screens -yes. i use it for my professional work so the gear i get ain't just for sitting pretty

That sounds like a point that needs clarification. A Thunderbolt monitor isn't going to ADD multiple monitor support to anything... that feature is ONLY for Thunderbolt equipped Macs. The issue is if a Thunderbolt equipped Mac can have one of the new Thunderbolt Monitors and a Mini DisplayPort monitor hanging off that. As current Mini DisplayPort Monitors work off Thunderbolt equipped Macs right now (as the only option to even buy) and MDP monitors are claimed to work off the Promise Raid as well, it would follow that the MDP Monitors should also work at the end of a Thunderbolt chain.

Nothing else about this "news" is new. The Macbook Air and 13" with HD3000 chips were only advertised as having ability to drive ONE Monitor... I was at the Apple Store weeks ago and this was clearly advertised. I'm seeing a lot of posts here that just plain can't read the basic specs when they buy stuff... OK, it's the internet, carry on!
 
$999 for a display that won't work with a PC? No thanks.

Kanex will be modifying their current adapter range to function with thunderbolt-in devices; it's easy enough, since they use a MDP data stream.

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MacBook Air is now up on eBay. 15''' MacBook Pro ordered.

Dude, why? What do you want a laptop for exactly? Furthermore, if it's just for the dual display capability, you can still chain it using another thunderbolt device as the link.
 
to be completely fair, the limitation of One Thunderbolt display has always been on the spec page for the MacBook Airs. It is a hard limitation of the HD3000 graphics not some conspiracy from Apple.

The only real news here is that Mini DisplayPort won't daisy chain. That one is a new discovery because it is known that mini DisplayPort monitors work off the Thunderbolt machines (seen that at the Apple Store) and that other posters have mini DisplayPort working through other Thunderbolt devices like the Promise Raid... as long as they are the "end" device. So that MDP wouldn't work plugged into Apple's OWN monitor seems to be more of a "jab in the face" because some people have it working when another Thunderbolt device is in between.. that's worth getting upset about as there's no reason for the limitation.

Actually with the MBP 13 which also has the HD3000 you can use 2 Thunderbolt displays (the lcd in the laptop goes dark), so it is being limited by Apple on the Airs, probably due to differences in the speed itself of the HD3000 or ram used by it and not due to some weird conspiracy.

With the using an MDP after the Thunderbolt might be due to implementation of the display itself.

In any case i'll be waiting for the model with USB3 or a Belkin dock also with USB3, hopefully by the time ivy bridge is out, if not then I might keep the iMac till Haswell and then move completely to an Air based solution...
 
Does anybody knows if you are able to use three thunderbolt monitor in chain?

No.

Something like this setup: MBP 2011//TB Display//TB Display//TB Hard Drive//Cinema display...

The Intel tech docs say only 2 DP devices max. Technically, a TB Display is a DP device ( it will be consuming one of the 2 DP data streams on the TB network. ) and a TB device. It doesn't get a magic "get out of jail free" card just because there is a TB controller on board.

TB is limited to what the GPU puts onto the network (has to be capable of sending two streams ) . The GPU's output is limited to what the TB controller allows to be put on to the network ( it has at most 2 input pins. Some are allowed to have just one (MBA). ). So capable and connected elements that are completely internal to the host computer. It has nothing to do with the chain outside the computer. That order and configuration don't matter at all with this limitation.


The MBP 13" (HD300) has a switch so that can reroute the input to the internal screen to the TB controller. So can do two but loose the screen. The other MBP's with discrete GPUs can drive three but that third DP data stream is not connected to the TB controller. So, there is no way to see it external to the box.
 
- iMac (Mid 2011 and Late 2011):

Late 2011 iMac? :confused:

The revelation is a bit of a surprise, as Mini DisplayPort displays can currently be daisy chained off other Thunderbolt peripherals. Some users had been hoping to reuse their existing Mini DisplayPort displays as part of multiple-monitor setups using the new Thunderbolt display, but will apparently be unable to do so.[/url]

Typical Rev.A Apple product...:eek: give it another 1-2 revisions and it should work like a charm!:D
 
I doubt many people were expecting the Airs to support 2 external displays. I also thought when the TB display and MacBook Air were announced Apple was pretty clear that the Airs would drive only one external monitor.
I certainly was. It would make it one of the most awesome machines on the market.

Talk about snatching defeat from the jaws of victory.

The HD 3000 is capable of handling only 2 displays. The 13" Pro can handle 2 external displays if it disables the internal display because it has a more capable Thunderbolt port.
Which is exactly what the Air should have had.
 
I doubt many people were expecting the Airs to support 2 external displays.

2560x1440 @ 24 bit (3 bytes per pixel) requires :

- 22,118,400 bytes of framebuffer (double buffered) VRAM.
- 663,552,000 bytes/sec transfer rate.

...

Multiply those values by 2. Heck, add in the requirements for the internal display (1440x900 @ 24 bit) :

- 7,776,000 bytes of framebuffer (double buffered) VRAM.
- 233,280,000 bytes/sec transfer rate.

Now you're telling me that in 2011, we don't have :

- 50 MB of VRAM (the Intel HD equipped air are configured with 384 MB)
- 12,5 Gbps transfer rate (careful, coverted to Bits per Second here, earlier used bytes) ?

Oh wait... no we don't, because Intel/Apple didn't use DP 1.2. If they did and if they made TB seperate from DP, we could use all 3 monitors on a single MBA with no problem. DP 1.2 has the bandwidth (21 Gbps vs the needed 12 Gbps) and can daisy chain. Obviously GPUs have had enough VRAM for this for years.

Yeah... no one expects a Macbook Air to drive the stuff that we could basically drive 5 years ago... :rolleyes: Of course, we shouldn't expect it, Apple doesn't use the proper level of specifications that exists to support this stuff.

But seriously, none issue for me. I would never pay 2k$ for an external monitor setup for my MBA. I would however buy 2 Dell 1920x1200 IPS monitors and a Matrox DualHead2Go DP/Digital for the same 999$ that Apple asks for their TB monitor and get more usuable pixels and drive 2 externals + the internal monitor without relative ease. ;)

It's important to know that the MBA can drive 2 external monitors, just not 2 super high resolution + the internal monitor. There's a lot of gross generalization in this thread that not all monitors are equal in their bandwidth/RAM requirements.

EDIT : Dell has the U3011 on sale today at 1049$ : http://accessories.dell.com/sna/pro...l.aspx?c=ca&l=en&s=dhs&cs=cadhs1&sku=224-9949. That's tempting too. :D At least they offer a zero bright pixel guarantee, much more than Apple even does. Guess I'll stick with my Samsung 2343bw (2048x1156) for now though, for lack of funds.
 
I certainly was. It would make it one of the most awesome machines on the market.

Talk about snatching defeat from the jaws of victory.


Which is exactly what the Air should have had.

It's still one of the most awesome machines on the market. Let's see what the HD3000-powered Ultrabooks can do before we start using phrases like "snatching defeat from the jaws of victory." They all deal with the 2 display limitation.

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Oh wait... no we don't, because Intel/Apple didn't use DP 1.2. If they did and if they made TB seperate from DP, we could use all 3 monitors on a single MBA with no problem. DP 1.2 has the bandwidth (21 Gbps vs the needed 12 Gbps) and can daisy chain. Obviously GPUs have had enough VRAM for this for years.

Yeah... no one expects a Macbook Air to drive the stuff that we could basically drive 5 years ago... :rolleyes: Of course, we shouldn't expect it, Apple doesn't use the proper level of specifications that exists to support this stuff.

But seriously, none issue for me. I would never pay 2k$ for an external monitor setup for my MBA. I would however buy 2 Dell 1920x1200 IPS monitors and a Matrox DualHead2Go DP/Digital for the same 999$ that Apple asks for their TB monitor and get more usuable pixels and drive 2 externals + the internal monitor without relative ease. ;)

It's important to know that the MBA can drive 2 external monitors, just not 2 super high resolution + the internal monitor. There's a lot of gross generalization in this thread that not all monitors are equal in their bandwidth/RAM requirements.

We don't know the technical reasons why Intel and Apple went with DP 1.1 instead of DP 1.2. Perhaps they were intending to use a different port (e.g. USB), were rebuffed, and DP was a fallback. People are too quick to blame everything on Apple conspiracies here. There's a logical reason for using the Eagle Ridge TB chipset in the Air, and there might well be a logical reason for using DP 1.1 instead of DP 1.2 that doesn't involve trying to upsell everyone to the MacBook Pro.

Anyway, are you saying it is possible to take a MacBook Air, run the internal display, and run two external, low-res monitors using an mDP chain? If so, might the MBA==>TB Display==>Other TB Device==>Apple Cinema Display setup work?

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MacBook Air is now up on eBay. 15''' MacBook Pro ordered.

So aren't you just feeding into Apple's conspiracy by purchasing yet another, more expensive Mac to use your two expensive displays? Plus, what if the reports are true about a processor bump this month to "tide over" until the more extensive Ivy Bridge update is ready?
 
We don't know the technical reasons why Intel and Apple went with DP 1.1 instead of DP 1.2. Perhaps they were intending to use a different port (e.g. USB), were rebuffed, and DP was a fallback. People are too quick to blame everything on Apple conspiracies here. There's a logical reason for using the Eagle Ridge TB chipset in the Air, and there might well be a logical reason for using DP 1.1 instead of DP 1.2 that doesn't involve trying to upsell everyone to the MacBook Pro.
My guess is Apple used dp1.1 just to get TB out in time for 2011 models.
They want to cut costs, so next major update will be 2012 and they needed something to boost sales of 2011 model.
Of course the consumer looses, first half of that year went without any TB products.
Once again, if Apple had chosen to put TB in usb socket, they wouldn't have crippled the dp port.
But maybe it would have been too complicated "for the rest of us" to still plug 3 cables to new shiny (reflecting) apple display...

But now the damage is done, and Apple is too bold to admit they chose wrong and change their product lines fast. We will be stucked for years in a situation where 2 the most bandwidth hungry pipes are tied together and both suffer and then we have these additional legacy ports having very little traffic...
 
Anyway, are you saying it is possible to take a MacBook Air, run the internal display, and run two external, low-res monitors using an mDP chain?

No, you can't, using a mDP chain. The MBA's mDP is limited to 1.1a which does not support daisy chaining. However, Matrox' dualhead2go is a monitor emulator. You plug it into the MBA's mDP and it will emulate a larger monitor from your different displays. Your MacBook will see a 3840x1200 monitor instead of 2 1920x1200 monitors. It's going to be better than a USB GPU (low USB bandwidth) because the Matrox Dualhead2Go is not a GPU, it's a breakout box for multiple display (high DVI or DP bandwidth).

And that will work perfectly yes.

As for the other question, I of course have no answer. But remember, Eagle Ridge only supports 1 DP channel, at 1.1a level of specification.

My guess is Apple used dp1.1 just to get TB out in time for 2011 models.

DP 1.2 is a 2009 specification. :rolleyes:
 
Once again, if Apple had chosen to put TB in usb socket, they wouldn't have crippled the dp port.
But maybe it would have been too complicated "for the rest of us" to still plug 3 cables to new shiny (reflecting) apple display...

That wasn't possible. Apple and Intel approached the USB Implementers Forum about using the port for Thunderbolt, but were rebuffed. For whatever reason, Sony used the USB port for their proprietary implementation of it (much the way some OEMs embed eSATA ports within USB ports), but since Intel and Apple wanted to make TB an open standard they needed to use a different port. mDP made sense since TB is mean to drive displays as well as other peripherals.
 
I wonder if Apple will give us a fix for the TB to MDP/CD issue.

I imagine quite a few of us have the MDP/CD and newer TB MacBooks and may want to add a new TB/CD ; which would be a good fit in a dual monitor setup, particularly with the new added ports, and inherent TB capabilities.

It would be unfortunate to have to start from scratch (not to mention expensive as heck)

To have to resort to a workaround is obviously not ideal, and would detract form the utility of a system.
 
doesnt this sort of discourage buying a thunderbolt display if you have a display that uses the display port. thunderbolt is backwards compatible so you can run your display port monitor off the thunderbolt if thats all you have, but if you buy a thunderbolt display and plug it into the thunderbolt there is no way to use your old monitor since the daisy chain wont work. so buying a thunderbolt display you make your mini display port display useless. so your paying 1000 for the thunderbolt display plus eating whatever you spent on the display port monitor.
 
But seriously, none issue for me. I would never pay 2k$ for an external monitor setup for my MBA. I would however buy 2 Dell 1920x1200 IPS monitors and a Matrox DualHead2Go DP/Digital for the same 999$ that Apple asks for their TB monitor and get more usuable pixels and drive 2 externals + the internal monitor without relative ease. ;)
Some pointers on where to buy a couple of 27" IPS LCDs for ~$700 would be appreciated.

It's still one of the most awesome machines on the market. Let's see what the HD3000-powered Ultrabooks can do before we start using phrases like "snatching defeat from the jaws of victory." They all deal with the 2 display limitation.

The MBA could have been a genuine desktop replacement for nearly everyone. Now it can't, for no discernible good reason. I think my judgement is quite valid.

My ~4 year old Dell E4300 could drive a couple of 27" LCDs from its docking station. It's ludicrous that a contemporary machine like an MBA can't do the same thing. It's flat-out ridiculous when the practically identical 13" MBP can.
 
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Some pointers on where to buy a couple of 27" IPS LCDs for ~$700 would be appreciated.

Who said anything about 27" IPS ? Dell has a couple of 24" IPS monitors that often go on sale for around 399$. Just watch for them, they have 1920x1200 resolution.

27" 1920x1200 monitors are just awful sorry.



The MBA could have been a genuine desktop replacement for nearly everyone. Now it can't, for no discernible good reason. I think my judgement is quite valid.

Still seems to act as one for me.

My ~4 year old Dell E4300 could drive a couple of 27" LCDs from its docking station. It's ludicrous that a contemporary machine like an MBA can't do the same thing. It's flat-out ridiculous when the practically identical 13" MBP can.

The 13" MBP has a 2 port TB chip, the MBA doesn't. 1 port = 1 DP signal. It's in the specs.

The MacBook Air is quite capable of driving the 1920x1200 27" LCDs you talk about, albeit with a break out box like a Matrox Dualhead2go.
 
2560x1440 @ 24 bit (3 bytes per pixel) requires :

- 22,118,400 bytes of framebuffer (double buffered) VRAM.
- 663,552,000 bytes/sec transfer rate.

...

Multiply those values by 2. Heck, add in the requirements for the internal display (1440x900 @ 24 bit) :

- 7,776,000 bytes of framebuffer (double buffered) VRAM.
- 233,280,000 bytes/sec transfer rate.

Now you're telling me that in 2011, we don't have :

- 50 MB of VRAM (the Intel HD equipped air are configured with 384 MB)
- 12,5 Gbps transfer rate (careful, coverted to Bits per Second here, earlier used bytes) ?

Oh wait... no we don't, because Intel/Apple didn't use DP 1.2. If they did and if they made TB seperate from DP, we could use all 3 monitors on a single MBA with no problem. DP 1.2 has the bandwidth (21 Gbps vs the needed 12 Gbps) and can daisy chain. Obviously GPUs have had enough VRAM for this for years.

Yeah... no one expects a Macbook Air to drive the stuff that we could basically drive 5 years ago... :rolleyes: Of course, we shouldn't expect it, Apple doesn't use the proper level of specifications that exists to support this stuff.

While I totally appreciate the fact that you took the time to do a little math, VRAM isn't just about framebuffer, and it also isn't part of the equation here. The limitations on Thunderbolt display support boil down to this:

If there is no dGPU only 2 displays can be driven, because Intel's HD 3000 Graphics only has 2 DisplayPort 1.1 outputs. This is not an Apple limitation unless you consider not providing a dGPU as an Apple imposed limitation. It is right there in the specs, though, so anyone who bought one of these and is now bitter about this newfound limitation prolly shoulda read those specs.

If a Mac lacks a dGPU but has the Light Ridge Thunderbolt controller (which has 2 DisplayPort inputs), it can drive two displays off of the Thunderbolt port, but will have to blank either the built-in display (13-inch MacBook Pro) or HDMI connected display (Mac mini).

The MacBook Air uses the Eagle Ridge Thunderbolt controller, which only has one DisplayPort input, and thus can only drive 1 external display. I'm guessing this decision was based on the smaller size, power consumption and cost of the Eagle Ridge chip. What's interesting is that Apple provides a full Light Ridge chip in the mini, which also has a very small form factor and carries a lower retail price to boot.

Every Thunderbolt equipped Mac with a dGPU comes with the Light Ridge controller, and can thus drive two displays connected via Thunderbolt as well as any built in displays or HDMI connected displays. If you're talking about a 27-inch iMac with two ports, both displays can be conventional DisplayPort 1.1a panels because no daisy-chaining of displays is required.

Thunderbolt does not support DisplayPort 1.2 or Multi Stream Transport. This is also not an Apple limitation, nor would it be trivial to add support for these features. A DP 1.1a main link + aux channel can carry a maximum of 8.641 Gbps of data. This will fit on a single 10 Gbps Thunderbolt channel. DP 1.2 requires 18 Gbps for main link + aux. This would have required a single Thunderbolt channel to provide 20 Gbps of bandwidth. If they stuck with the full-duplex, dual-channel architecture, Intel would have had to come up with a cable and connector that could support simultaneous, bi-directional 40 Gbps throughput. We're just not there yet, I'm afraid, and it doesn't look like Cactus Ridge is going to get us there either.

The other thing that's not here yet are any devices that support DisplayPort 1.2's MST, despite the standard being released in the final days of 2009. If I'm wrong in saying this, please correct me, because I thought the technology sounded great when it was announced.

As you pointed out though, solutions to drive 2 or 3 external displays off of a single DisplayPort 1.1 stream have existed for some time, and are totally feasible for use with Thunderbolt Macs. This would allow simultaneous use of 3 external displays plus the built in on the MBA, or 6 external plus the built-in on the 27-inch iMac. Granted, these solutions only work with lower resolution displays, e.g. 2@1920x1080 or 3@1280x1024.

The oddest limitation the original article brings to light is the lack of ability to chain a DP display directly off an ATD, but instead having to put another device in between. I can't conceive of why the ATD doesn't support DisplayPort compatibility mode signaling, aside from the logical suggestions made earlier that this could easily lead to unsupported configurations and thus was intentionally disabled by Apple. This is annoying if it can't be worked around aside from adding at least $100 worth of nonexistent Thunderbolt dongle or even pricier devices in order to continue the chain.

I'd also like to add that Apple's suggestion to make the ATD the first device in the chain provides two obvious advantages. 1) The first hop in a chain has the lowest latency, which could help the quality of the video signal in certain situations. 2) You don't accidentally lose your display signal if you power down or disconnect an intermediate device.

My guess is Apple used dp1.1 just to get TB out in time for 2011 models.
They want to cut costs, so next major update will be 2012 and they needed something to boost sales of 2011 model.
Of course the consumer looses, first half of that year went without any TB products.
Once again, if Apple had chosen to put TB in usb socket, they wouldn't have crippled the dp port.
But maybe it would have been too complicated "for the rest of us" to still plug 3 cables to new shiny (reflecting) apple display...

But now the damage is done, and Apple is too bold to admit they chose wrong and change their product lines fast. We will be stucked for years in a situation where 2 the most bandwidth hungry pipes are tied together and both suffer and then we have these additional legacy ports having very little traffic...

Once again, go ahead and show me a DisplayPort device that requires DP 1.2 or uses MST, or a consumer electronics cable that carries more than 20 Gbps, full-duplex.

Lowly, crippled DisplayPort 1.1a provides more video bandwidth than either Dual Link DVI or HDMI 1.4a, so therefore the ThunderBolt ports on Macs are actually more compact and capable than the vast majority of video out ports built into devices shipping today.
 
The 13" MBP has a 2 port TB chip, the MBA doesn't. 1 port = 1 DP signal. It's in the specs.

The MacBook Air is quite capable of driving the 1920x1200 27" LCDs you talk about, albeit with a break out box like a Matrox Dualhead2go.

Yet the MBP only hast one TB port, not two.

I'm not so sure it's about the TB chip.

The specification calls for 2 TB channels and 1 DP channel in each TB port, the 2 port chip is just that, capable of driving two physical TB ports (e.g. the 27" iMac).

From what i understand the MBP and 21" iMac are only using half of that chip i.e. one TB port.

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If there is no dGPU only 2 displays can be driven, because Intel's HD 3000 Graphics only has 2 DisplayPort 1.1 outputs. This is not an Apple limitation unless you consider not providing a dGPU as an Apple imposed limitation. It is right there in the specs, though, so anyone who bought one of these and is now bitter about this newfound limitation prolly shoulda read those specs.

If a Mac lacks a dGPU but has the Light Ridge Thunderbolt controller (which has 2 DisplayPort inputs), it can drive two displays off of the Thunderbolt port, but will have to blank either the built-in display (13-inch MacBook Pro) or HDMI connected display (Mac mini).

But is it connected that way? isn't the standard 2 TB channels + 1 DP channel per port? i'm not so sure it has to do with the two inputs unless Eagle Ridge is able to mux them into the single DP channel per port, meh where are the more technical info on those chips
 
Yet the MBP only hast one TB port, not two.

I'm not so sure it's about the TB chip.

The specification calls for 2 TB channels and 1 DP channel in each TB port, the 2 port chip is just that, capable of driving two physical TB ports (e.g. the 27" iMac).

From what i understand the MBP and 21" iMac are only using half of that chip i.e. one TB port.

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But is it connected that way? isn't the standard 2 TB channels + 1 DP channel per port? i'm not so sure it has to do with the two inputs unless Eagle Ridge is able to mux them into the single DP channel per port, meh where are the more technical info on those chips

Light Ridge has connections for 2 DP 1.1a inputs, 4 lanes of PCIe 2.0, and 2 TB ports. Eagle Ridge has connections for 1 DP 1.1a input, 4 lanes of PCIe 2.0 and 1 TB port. Except for the MBA, all other Macs with only one TB port are using the Light Ridge controller with only one output connected to a physical port. Each Thunderbolt port supports 2 x 10 Gbps, full-duplex channels, and each direction in each channel can be data and / or display. The limitations are pretty much all found at the back end here, i.e. how much can be connected to the TB controller on the mobo.
 
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