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It's a great argument, forget the morality issue or entitlement issue. Is it legal or illegal to hack your iPhone and use a carrier other than ATT?
If you say yes or no, then support the claim with a regulation, user agreement, code or court decision. No more opinions on this one. Does anyone have the FACTS?
 
It's a great argument, forget the morality issue or entitlement issue. Is it legal or illegal to hack your iPhone and use a carrier other than ATT??
If you say yes or no, then support the claim with a regulation, user agreement, code or court decision. No more opinions on this one. Does anyone have the FACTS?

And what about those who are using ATT with an unlocked phone but not the iphone plan??? Like me... ;-) Am I going to be arrested?
 
Wrong! Wrong!! Wrong!!!

In the UK, the consumer has the right to have the mobile phone lock removed for a fee. The when and where of it depends on what the user's situation is.. Contract phone users can have the network lock removed after varying periods as per user agreement and T&Cs, and PAYG phone can be released from the supplying network the day they're bought - as long as the user is willing to pay the fee.

Can someone take a look at the below-listed probabilities, compare them with the iPhone locking scenario and tell me how on earth they can justify locking the phone that someone has paid full price for? Are people renting the thing or buying it outright, because this needs to be made clear.

  1. If Apple made an active effort (secure, pre-installed & active EFI-based tech for example) to somehow prevent Mac users from running other OSes or virtual machines on Macs, would people be happy with that?
  2. If iPods could only EVER be filled with DRMed music from the iTunes store, would people be buying them to the tune of 100 million units?
  3. If, for example Mercedes Benz or Toyota found a way of restricting it's cars to a special fuelling nozzle only found at filling stations run by BP, Esso, Texaco or Shell for example, would it sell as many as it does now?

Would any of these actions be considered legal, because if not, Apple have a case to answer for in my view, and they may need to clearly state at point of sale (and before the ACTUAL sale) that the device and associated/marketed features can only successfully be used on one network. Then we'll see how many they end up selling. I understand that they don't aim to change the mobile market entirely in this case versus e.g. the iPod based on the percentages SJ said he's going after.

It does hurt to be told your choice is to accept whats on offer this time or leave it, but i'm leaving it. The device is top-knotch, and unusually for Apple they've gone even further than the iPod DRM situation with the iPhone. I'll pass on this one - the same way i've had to leave a few other Apple products because they didn't fit my purpose. Freedom of choice is all you can throw at Apple right now - feel free to use it :eek:
 
I can understand Apple's motives for re-locking the phone in the next major update. After all, they do have an obligation to the providers they have struck deals with. What I will say though is this...

If the re-lock is something that can be avoided by not upgrading iTunes / iPhone firmware, then fine. I won't upgrade and I'll live with an iPhone that is slightly degraded in functionality. I guess that is the price one pays for using an unlocked phone.

On the other hand, if Apple somehow renders our phones useless by way of an invisible behind the scenes update (which I have heard is their plan), I am finished. I will sell my iPhone, along with all four of my Macs. The arrogance of Apple and Jobs seems to be infinite. I did nothing illegal by buying an iPhone and unlocking for use outside of the US. If they offered it in my country at the same time as the US, I probably would have signed a contract and bought one. Furthermore this move would demonstrate just how much Apple has it's customers by the "balls". I have been looking for a reason for a long time to give Linux another try, and this might be just the push I need.

Either way, interesting times are ahead.

Legally, Apple would be in a world of trouble if they somehow figured out how to unilaterally (ie, without your consent) "render your phone useless", they would be sued by individuals and problem some state AGs and they would lose.

We need to keep in mind these things:
1. If you buy an IPhone from Apple you have not agreed to ANYTHING either explicit or implicit relative to who you will get your service from. Sign posted in a store don't contractually bind me.
1B. Apple's agreement with ATT does not obligate me in any way. I am a third party and Apple can't impose terms (other than those I explicitly agree to).
2. IF you hack your IPhone you may invalidate your warranty (this will need to be legally resolved as well). For example, if the screen has dead pixels. . .a hack is not the cause.
3. Nobody is STEALING anything. If you use another carrier you are paying that carrier. The oft mentioned DirecTV ref is not valid - people were STEALING a service by design.
4. There is some level of safe harbor under the DMCA rulings/opinions for unlocking phones.
5. Steve's goal is 10M IPhones by 2008, not increasing profit by making $ off of the contracts (that is gravy but NOT his goal).
6. MSFT got in antitrust trouble for making IE the default and difficult to remove browser (pretty mild in retrospect). Apple bricking phones is much worse.

So, what do I think will happen?
1. Apple will provide updates that close known loopholes in the security system.
2. ATT will make you activate in their stores when you buy them there.
3. Apple will purposely 'haze over' what their intention is re hacks.
 
Did you know that steve jobs and and his old mate wozniak used to hack public
telephones to get free phone calls ??? this was when they were a poor students.

go here to watch the documentary http://chime.tv/#doc/9zxd

Yes, this is the kind of thing that makes me smile when I hear people talk about how "Apple is a business and exists to make money", because it's so far removed from the core values that Apple was founded on. Apple's thrived as a company because they've always followed a different set of rules and values than their competitors. Has everybody forgotten "Think different?" - it's not just a marketing slogan, it's the company's most important asset. And the further Apple drifts away from those founding values, the more vulnerable they become to losing their edge and being just another Microsoft. Which is fine by me, I'll be happy to take anything Apple leaves behind and use it to my own advantage. Just like Jobs did versus the big guys in the early 1980's.
 
Yes, this is the kind of thing that makes me smile when I hear people talk about how "Apple is a business and exists to make money", because it's so far removed from the core values that Apple was founded on. Apple's thrived as a company because they've always followed a different set of rules and values than their competitors. Has everybody forgotten "Think different?" - it's not just a marketing slogan, it's the company's most important asset. And the further Apple drifts away from those founding values, the more vulnerable they become to losing their edge and being just another Microsoft. Which is fine by me, I'll be happy to take anything Apple leaves behind and use it to my own advantage. Just like Jobs did versus the big guys in the early 1980's.


You guys are ridiculous. If I did the things I did in college at work, I'd be fired in a heart beat. What they've done is matured, that's all. Just because they don't hack things, doesn't mean they don't "think different?".

Further they drift? Why, cause they won't let you unlock your iPhone? They didn't unlock their OSX to run on other computers and I'm glad they didn't, and I'm glad their doing the same here. Apple doesn't care what you guys think, because if they did, they would have turned into M$ a long time ago. You guys are like fans on the sideline of a NFL football game screaming at the coach telling him what to do because you played high school football. Unless you're a Jets fan, let the professional handle it.
 
The terms of iPhone ownership include a phone locked to a contract with a specific carrier. Accept those terms or don't. The ethical route to taking a stand against such terms is *not to buy the product and not to support the company with your money*. It is not to provide profit for the company, anyway, and think you don't have to accept the terms that have been set forth. Sorry. Your ethics are awash in self-justification of want, want, want. If you don't like the terms, don't buy the damn thing. There are plenty of competitors with more liberal policies just waiting for your money.

Agreed.
 
Well I mean what do you expect him to say... , " Yes, good job with the unlocking guys, I encourage you to continue."

Of course he's going to have to back the companies that invest in Apple... I don't think they're going to make it that much harder to unlock... but we'll see.
 
Legally, Apple would be in a world of trouble if they somehow figured out how to unilaterally (ie, without your consent) "render your phone useless", they would be sued by individuals and problem some state AGs and they would lose.

We need to keep in mind these things:
1. If you buy an IPhone from Apple you have not agreed to ANYTHING either explicit or implicit relative to who you will get your service from. Sign posted in a store don't contractually bind me.
1B. Apple's agreement with ATT does not obligate me in any way. I am a third party and Apple can't impose terms (other than those I explicitly agree to).
2. IF you hack your IPhone you may invalidate your warranty (this will need to be legally resolved as well). For example, if the screen has dead pixels. . .a hack is not the cause.
3. Nobody is STEALING anything. If you use another carrier you are paying that carrier. The oft mentioned DirecTV ref is not valid - people were STEALING a service by design.
4. There is some level of safe harbor under the DMCA rulings/opinions for unlocking phones.
5. Steve's goal is 10M IPhones by 2008, not increasing profit by making $ off of the contracts (that is gravy but NOT his goal).
6. MSFT got in antitrust trouble for making IE the default and difficult to remove browser (pretty mild in retrospect). Apple bricking phones is much worse.

So, what do I think will happen?
1. Apple will provide updates that close known loopholes in the security system.
2. ATT will make you activate in their stores when you buy them there.
3. Apple will purposely 'haze over' what their intention is re hacks.

I was in the Apple Store 5th Ave this evening and there were literally hundreds of tourists buying iphones. And that was just one evening - I'm sure they sell thousands every week to people who are just visiting. Now, of course it's their responsibility to know that an ATT contract is required, but Apple does nothing to stop the sales or at least inform them that warranties will not be honored if they unlock them, even though they know full well that these iphones are going to get unlocked when they get to whatever country they're going.

I think it would incredibly poor of Apple to decide to brick all these iphones it has sold under these circumstances. It would also alienate a lot of its customers - the ones that bought the iphones. Keeping these people happy will almost certainly guarantee more business in the future and that is also worth something. Apple should really be careful how it handles this.
 
Everyone still seems to be speculating. Does anyone know the codes, legal decisions, software agreements and end user agreement specifics? It sure would be helpful to hear more than opinions. Aren't there any lawyers out there?
 
Maybe stopping it completely is impossible. But they don't have to let unlocked phones play nice with iTunes, I'd imagine. And if they cut it off at that level it'd be pretty devastating since iTunes is the way most people would get all their media onto it, right?

If it doesn't play nice with itunes it hurts apple more than att.
 
And what about those who are using ATT with an unlocked phone but not the iphone plan??? Like me... ;-) Am I going to be arrested?
No, of course not. You've not done anything against the law if we're to assume that you didn't make any binding agreement not to and the unlocking process doesn't require you to misappropriate any proprietary and restricted information.
Who knows...does anyone out there have the facts?
Sure. The exemption to the anti-circumvention law is as follows:
"5. Computer programs in the form of firmware that enable wireless telephone handsets to connect to a wireless telephone communication network, when circumvention is accomplished for the sole purpose of lawfully connecting to a wireless telephone communication network."
Source: United States Copyright Office.

This does not invalidate other claims against the locking process, per se, so people that make the unlocking software can still be liable for damages and even criminal penalties, depending on how they go about creating the unlocking tool.

Also note that this exception to the copyright rule does not require that the handset maker or network operator actually help you unlock the device. It does not require that they keep any exploits or vulnerabilities open. It simply requires that they not sue you for copyright infringement and that if you are "lawfully connected" to your network, that they not arbitrarily lock the phone (by expressly changing the SIM lock code--since none of the iPhone activation techniques thus far use a "lock code" technique [if they did, you would not need to flash your firmware], this is not applicable here).

The rule also does not mean that carriers can't put language into their contracts about refusing to support phones with modified firmware or that they can't lock out phones using said unauthorized firmware. For instance, the "sole purpose" of most activation hacks is not just a SIM unlock--it's a modification allowing third-party development, so that use is not protected by the exception--only the unlocking is. If you have violated copyright with some other hack, you're still certainly liable. But Apple isn't going to find out or do anything about it to you personally. They're just going to release firmware that breaks what you've done.

So again, they can't simply lock the phones by broadcast, but they don't have to support your efforts, and they don't have to support modified-firmware devices, and they don't have to keep the back doors open.
If Apple made an active effort (secure, pre-installed & active EFI-based tech for example) to somehow prevent Mac users from running other OSes or virtual machines on Macs, would people be happy with that?
That's not a parallel situation--adding your own software is very different from modifying theirs. There is no prohibition on installing your own software on the iPhone. You can wipe the memory and install Linux if you want to. Unfortunately it would no longer function as a cell phone at that point, since the baseband firmware is proprietary and includes the necessary security measures and connectivity to a particular cellular network.

Your problem here is not with Apple, but with AT&T. Cellular networks are not "open access" technologies--they're not the Internet. They are closed, proprietary services to which admission is granted by those who own them. You have no issues whatsoever doing anything you want to your iPhone until you try to connect it to a private network without authorization.

It's your phone, and you can do mostly whatever you want with that phone. But it's AT&T's network and Apple's code, and they can do mostly whatever they want.
If iPods could only EVER be filled with DRMed music from the iTunes store, would people be buying them to the tune of 100 million units?
That's neither relevant nor illegal. They would be less successful, but that's entirely a business decision to be made by the company.
If, for example Mercedes Benz or Toyota found a way of restricting it's cars to a special fuelling nozzle only found at filling stations run by BP, Esso, Texaco or Shell for example, would it sell as many as it does now?
Again, it's not "how successful they would be in the marketplace." That point is moot. The iPhone is quite successful.
Would any of these actions be considered legal
All of them would be legal (not excepting any strange local statutes).
 
I'll add my 2 cents....

We mustn't forget that AT&T does add a function to the iPhone: Visual Voicemail.
This does justify locking the iPhone to one carrier... a bit.
There are quite a few technologies around that are only, or only partly available to carriers. Take I-mode for instance. OK, not the most practical extra on a phone, but it does restrict you to one or just a few carriers and / or phones. If you specifically want a service, then you are restricted in your choices.

Same applies for Mac OS X.... you must buy a Mac to be able to use it :p

So, if you want an iPhone... you must use AT&T to be able to use it. ;)
 
I can only see one benefit to unlocking the phone, and that would be international travel. But hack the phone so I can use T-mobile? Nah, not for me.

Perhaps we should direct our hatred towards ATT, whose international roaming charges are insane (and the phone itself should have controls for disabling EDGE roaming and email, etc., which might come in the next update). They should offer some kind of competitive international pricing plan... make me want to use the phone instead of dread using the phone.

Should Apple have just made an open phone in the first place? Well, it wouldn't be as good in at least one way, because it wouldn't have Visual Voicemail. That feature alone is genius in my mind. But it's their phone with their provider; I am free not to buy it if it doesn't fit the way I roll.
 
I can only see one benefit to unlocking the phone, and that would be international travel. But hack the phone so I can use T-mobile? Nah, not for me.

I understand you may not feel like T-Mobile suits you, but there are a lot of us out there for whom T-Mobile offers better customer service and excellent rates. Take myself, for example: I don't need coverage everywhere, just where I live, work, and travel 95% of the time. T-Mobile does this for me. Their rates are also far more competitive. I have 1000 minutes, free N/W, and unlimited EDGE internet access for $60 a month -- that's $20 less than AT&T with 100 more minutes (although I do sacrifice 200 free text messages, so the 100 minute difference could be a wash depending on who you are). Over the lifetime of the contract, that is a $480 difference. Pretty big if you ask me.

So for some people, there is another benefit to unlocking the iPhone. Yours isn't the only one.
 
Which part, the minutes/SMS trade-off? That can be remedied by a $5 for 400 SMS package, still coming in at $15/mo cheaper. It may not be everyone's cup of tea, but it will be for others.
 
I don't understand the hysteria that this is causing.

The title of this thread is something that absolutely 100% has been known all along. Anyone who has unlocked their phone (first of all is an idiot) should have and would have known and considered this long before buying and unlocking the phone.

The phone was not meant to be unlocked. Period. If you chose to do so and you DO suffer permanant damage, you have absolutely no one to blame but your own geeky self.

I would still say the same thing if Apple hadn't bothered to warn people, and had just released an update that bricked any and all SIM unlocked phones. Answer is, thats what you get. Don't do with a device what is not meant to be done. Else you pay for it.

You wanna play with SIM cards and pick the carrier of your choice (which makes no difference because they ALL suck equally), then get a Razor, or Razr, or Razer, however the hell they spell it this week.
 
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