Apple to Allow iPad Users in EU to Download Apps From Third-Party App Stores From September 16

[cupcakes2000]

Let's look at music. For example. Apple have one real choice. Apple music. They pay (apple, somewhat surprisingly) to get music. Thats OK. A good service. Spotify and others also exist, but its awkward. Feels like a tack on on and can't so the same cool stuff apple music can. On a mac you can use YouTube, hear what you want how you want. Legally. Take android, front end apps to YouTube legally do the same things, fully available on google play or elsewhere. Bear in mind YouTube IS google. No restrictions.

Dont you, the ios user, feel a tad hard done by?

 

[cupcakes2000]

I would argue the fact that you keep saying the other App Stores don't matter on Android is proof positive the vast, vast majority of consumers don't care.

They matter because choice is important. They can't achieve the same notoriety because they're not built in, they receive less preferential treatment and they're overshadowed by massive google influence and subsequent steering.

 

[surferfb]

Let's look at music. For example. Apple have one real choice. Apple music. They pay (apple, somewhat surprisingly) to get music. Thats OK. A good service. Spotify and others also exist, but its awkward. Feels like a tack on on and can't so the same cool stuff apple music can. On a mac you can use YouTube, hear what you want how you want. Legally. Take android, front end apps to YouTube legally do the same things, fully available on google play or elsewhere. Bear in mind YouTube IS google. No restrictions.

Dont you, the ios user, feel a tad hard done by?

No, I don't. Would I prefer Apple offer some things that they don't or change some policies? Absolutely. Do I think government should come in and force them to offer or change them? Absolutely not. If they bother me enough, I'll switch to Android. Because, despite what the EU and DMA defenders keep arguing, there is plenty of competition in smartphones and switching is not hard or expensive.

 

[cupcakes2000]

No, I don't. Would I prefer Apple offer some things that they don't or change some policies? Absolutely. Do I think government should come in and force them to offer or change them? Absolutely not. If they bother me enough, I'll switch to Android. Because, despite what the EU and DMA defenders keep arguing, there is plenty of competition in smartphones and switching is not hard or expensive.

Fair enough. Opinions are valid. Contrary to what you suggest though, it is hard to switch. Get your notes out of the notes app, transfer your app settings between the two OS's, export/import everything from one os to the other without a hitch and get back to me. When that day comes, without intervention, we will all be robots. With intervention, perhaps we will see it in our lifetimes.

I just dont think this power is a power that should be able to be wielded. I admit its come from a good place, it probably didn't intend to be intentional. Probably. But now, with how its become, this two player system (let's be honest, there are two players), something needs to change. Are they going to do this themselves?

 

[I7guy]

How? We wanted apps. Here they are and we'll take our bit. By the way, that's the only way to get them. Subject closed.

In 2024 it’s one thing. In 2008 it was a gamble. And yes, by design and legally the only way to get iOS apps is through the iOS apps store. Even if you don’t like it.

It’s the reality.

They operate worldwide. The us is the us not the world.

 

[webkit]

You’re welcome to your definition but it’s objectively true:
- competition exists across the broader tech ecosystem. Even if you don’t like the universe characterization)
- android is not a single operating system
- other cell phone manufacturers have alternative platforms
- cross platform tools make it easy to push apps on multiple platforms

It's not about "my definition", it's about your "definition." You brought up things like existence of alternatives/options, possibility of collusion, barriers, etc. yet none of those things show that the App Store/Play Store or iOS/Android can't be duopolies.

There is no rigid duopoly.

Why are you adding the word "rigid"? You realized you were wrong and now needed to add "rigid" to try to move the goalposts?

 

[I7guy]

It's not about "my definition", it's about your "definition." You brought up things like existence of alternatives/options, possibility of collusion, barriers, etc. yet none of those things show that the App Store/Play Store or iOS/Android can't be duopolies.

No this is about an opinion of what constitutes a duopoly. And there is nothing to suggest anyone here has lock, stock and barrel of the definition.

Why are you adding the word "rigid"? You realized you were wrong and now needed to add "rigid" to try to move the goalposts?

You are tactically saying this ios vs android thing is not really a duopoly as you characterized it?

 

[wbeasley]

Installing an apk isnt an alternative App Store.
A front end alternative for Google play isn’t an alternative app-store.
Apk mirrors from Google play isn’t an alternate app-store.
RSS reader type apps, like obtainium, aren’t app-store.

Fdroid is, and it’s an alternate App Store, but it’s specifically and only for open source apps.
Gaming appstores are specifically for games. So they’re not really an alternative in the way that is relevant in this conversation.

The relevant alternative AppStore in this conversation would be an all encompassing AppStore ran by someone other than Google or Apple, but allowed the same type of privileges as either of those stores. This is issue, and you cannot give a level player because one doesn’t exist, just as in the OS space.
Now granted, Android it there, but the Google play store remains dominant because it’s built in by default.
Apple is just not there and has nothing of the sort even in the horizon.

Obviously the problem is both Apple and Google have put themselves in the impossible to surmount dominant position, purely gained by virtue of exclusivity.

But there is nothing stopping anyone setting up an alt Android store.

Just because one has only open source software is their choice.
They CAN add anything they want to host there.
It's a mechanism AND it exists. You can't deny it. THERE ARE OPTIONS ALREADY so it's not the duopoly you claim.

 

[wbeasley]

Let's look at music. For example. Apple have one real choice. Apple music. They pay (apple, somewhat surprisingly) to get music. Thats OK. A good service. Spotify and others also exist, but its awkward. Feels like a tack on on and can't so the same cool stuff apple music can. On a mac you can use YouTube, hear what you want how you want. Legally. Take android, front end apps to YouTube legally do the same things, fully available on google play or elsewhere. Bear in mind YouTube IS google. No restrictions.

Dont you, the ios user, feel a tad hard done by?

Music is NOT an OS or AppStore.
Wrong analogy.

You can walk into a store and buy content. An OS is not content.

 

[wbeasley]

Fair enough. Opinions are valid. Contrary to what you suggest though, it is hard to switch. Get your notes out of the notes app, transfer your app settings between the two OS's, export/import everything from one os to the other without a hitch and get back to me. When that day comes, without intervention, we will all be robots. With intervention, perhaps we will see it in our lifetimes.

I just dont think this power is a power that should be able to be wielded. I admit its come from a good place, it probably didn't intend to be intentional. Probably. But now, with how its become, this two player system (let's be honest, there are two players), something needs to change. Are they going to do this themselves?

Apple have tools to help Android users switch to iOS.
Makes it as easy as possible.

I'm sure there are Android tools as well...

 

[I7guy]

But there is nothing stopping anyone setting up an alt Android store.

Just because one has only open source software is their choice.
They CAN add anything they want to host there.
It's a mechanism AND it exists. You can't deny it. THERE ARE OPTIONS ALREADY so it's not the duopoly you claim.

A duopoly only means there are two. For example in the eastern part of the US we have QuickCheck and WAWA gas stations. If there was a small town that only had two gas stations and they were QuickCheck and WAWA it could rightfully be said there was a duopoly. That there is this "duopoly" is not necessarily bad unless the two gas stations collude on a price fixing scheme or other such illegal activities or somehow figure out how to restrict competition illegally in this small town. If this happens the pro-antitrust folks do have a point.

But imo, this does not apply to the ios vs android app store debate because of the rational I posted above, even if some don't agree with it. It seems the app store marketplace between this "duopoly" is rife with competition. Although some still call the ios app store a monopoly there hasn't been any case law validating this. Hence to side-step this issue the DMA was created.

It has been said apple violated anti-trust laws. It's true there was a finding from one of the eight or nine points in the Epic vs Apple lawsuit. They won on 8 and lost one 1. (The least important one) That's life in corporate America. I could probably go down the list of fortune 100 companies and find something, anything they did and received a judgement in a court of law. The punishment for Apple, they now have to allow verbiage saying where the service can be purchased elsewhere.

After all of these posts, no one will ever change anyones' mind. The anti-trust, pro-DMA group hails the legislation, while the folks who want less, not more, governmental regulations decry the regulation.

Just a typical day on the MR website.

 

[wbeasley]

A duopoly only means there are two. For example in the eastern part of the US we have QuickCheck and WAWA gas stations. If there was a small town that only had two gas stations and they were QuickCheck and WAWA it could rightfully be said there was a duopoly. That there is this "duopoly" is not necessarily bad unless the two gas stations collude on a price fixing scheme or other such illegal activities or somehow figure out how to restrict competition illegally in this small town. If this happens the pro-antitrust folks do have a point.

But imo, this does not apply to the ios vs android app store debate because of the rational I posted above, even if some don't agree with it. It seems the app store marketplace between this "duopoly" is rife with competition. Although some still call the ios app store a monopoly there hasn't been any case law validating this. Hence to side-step this issue the DMA was created.

It has been said apple violated anti-trust laws. It's true there was a finding from one of the eight or nine points in the Epic vs Apple lawsuit. They won on 8 and lost one 1. (The least important one) That's life in corporate America. I could probably go down the list of fortune 100 companies and find something, anything they did and received a judgement in a court of law. The punishment for Apple, they now have to allow verbiage saying where the service can be purchased elsewhere.

After all of these posts, no one will ever change anyones' mind. The anti-trust, pro-DMA group hails the legislation, while the folks who want less, not more, governmental regulations decry the regulation.

Just a typical day on the MR website.

Funny how noone is arguing that desktop OSes are basically a duopoly for consumers...

And the same hinderances exist to stop you moving from one platform to another.
It might be your work dictates the hardware choice.
It might be once you buy software for one, you dont get a licence to use it on the other so you cant swap over.

Sure you can install anything you like and run it (with warnings sometimes) but even then, there is not the freedom to just jump OSes.

Then software has to evolve with the hardware.
All the 32 bit stuff that wont run anymore.
All the M chip specific Apple code.

I even tried moving a Time Machine backup from an old Intel Apple to another Intel Apple laptop running a later version of OS and it failed to run Parallels in the new OS.

The IT world is filled with examples of limits.

The iOS setup was designed one way from day one. You bought the device knowing that.

But those who "love iOS" but still want it to bend to their self-centred needs are not really loving the core ideals of iOS. But they voice their right to force Apple to change on here every single day.

 

[cupcakes2000]

so it's not the duopoly you claim.

Stop trying to put this statement into my mouth. I haven’t said anything about a duopoly and I haven’t stated my opinion either way.

Music is NOT an OS or AppStore.
Wrong analogy.

You can walk into a store and buy content. An OS is not content.

You completely missed the point, probably intentionally.

Apple have tools to help Android users switch to iOS.
Makes it as easy as possible.

I'm sure there are Android tools as well...

Oh well, if ‘you’re sure’. It’s not easy to move your data out of iOS. Don’t opine on something that you have clearly never tried.

 

[cupcakes2000]

And the same hinderances exist to stop you moving from one platform to another.

No they don’t. Not even slightly. It’s exceptionally easy to move data between traditional computers.

 

[wbeasley]

No they don’t. Not even slightly. It’s exceptionally easy to move data between traditional computers.

they do exist. you know that.

If I bought say a DVD Ripper for Mac, then moved to Windows, my software purchase doesnt work and I have to rebuy it.

If Parallels worked fine 4 years ago on and Intel Mac, there is nothing to say it will work today on the latest OS or on M3 chips. In fact it wont. You are forced to buy a new licence.

That's the nature of software even on desktops and laptops.

Luckily some licences allow x instances on either platform.
But that's not as common as you would like.

 

[wbeasley]

Stop trying to put this statement into my mouth. I haven’t said anything about a duopoly and I haven’t stated my opinion either way.

You completely missed the point, probably intentionally.

Oh well, if ‘you’re sure’. It’s not easy to move your data out of iOS. Don’t opine on something that you have clearly never tried.

Data isnt hard to move.
It's apps and having to rebuy them that costs money. You know that.
And it stops people moving.
Nothing to do with iOS walled garden.

I havent missed your point. I just believe it was wrong to use Music in an OS discussion.

 

[cupcakes2000]

my software purchase doesnt work and I have to rebuy it.

Of course you have to rebuy software for another platform. That's not even slightly what I have been speaking about, or what any type of DMA is suggesting.

Its about removing data from apples locked down ecosystem. Getting notes from notes, for example.

 

[cupcakes2000]

I havent missed your point. I just believe it was wrong to use Music in an OS discussion.

You have missed my point. My point was availability of different types of App that Apple deem unsavoury, and the lack ability of 3rd party apps to be as integrated as apples own apps. Both happen to ensure Apple gets what they want. Music was the obvious example to illustrate this, but it's gone over your head obviously. I cant help that.

 

[webkit]

No this is about an opinion of what constitutes a duopoly. And there is nothing to suggest anyone here has lock, stock and barrel of the definition.

I have addressed various aspects of your “opinion” and laid out that they don’t show how the App Store/Play Store or iOS/Android can't be duopolies. The issue isn't necessarily (or only) about your "opinion", it's that the reasons tied to your "opinion" have failed to show over and over again how the App Store/Play Store or iOS/Android can’t be duopolies.

You are tactically saying this ios vs android thing is not really a duopoly as you characterized it?

What I am saying that you have failed to show how the App Store/Play Store or iOS/Android can’t be duopolies and are adding a word to try to move the goalposts but would very likely fail yet again.

I'd ask how you conclude that the App Store/Play Store or iOS/Android can't be "rigid" duopolies but seeing how much you failed to show how they can't be duopolies, it would probably be another waste of time with more nonsense and attempted goalpost moving on your end.

 

[wbeasley]

You have missed my point. My point was availability of different types of App that Apple deem unsavoury, and the lack ability of 3rd party apps to be as integrated as apples own apps. Both happen to ensure Apple gets what they want. Music was the obvious example to illustrate this, but it's gone over your head obviously. I cant help that.

no you missed the point that when you bought your Apple device it was advertised how it worked. you bought it.

end of discussion.

you can whinge all you like, i know you wont change your mind, so whatever.

we all get what Apple give us.

if that doesnt suit you, then basically too bad.

music was a really bad example. LOL

 

[cupcakes2000]

you can whinge all you like, i know you wont change your mind, so whatever.

I'm not whinging at all. I'm getting what I want from Apple due to the DMA. It's you lot whinging about it, I think you will find, and most of you don't even live on this side of the world let alone the EU. Its all rather amusing.

 

[cupcakes2000]

music was a really bad example

Apple Music. It's the only music app on ios which works properly with the system, including homepods and other Apple made accessories.
If you want the 'proper experience', without Apple imposed awkwardness, Apple Music is the only choice due to several limitations imposed on subscription competitors by Apple, such as Deezer or Spotify et al.
Apple dont allow YouTube based music streaming apps such as RiMusic or InnerTube which stream freely available YouTube music wrapped in a nice music app interface.
Apple charges for Apple Music.

It's the perfect crime.

 

[AppliedMicro]

But what you're actually saying is "My desire for Apple to be an open system is more important than Apple's desire for their system to be closed, and the vast majority of its customers who either don't care or prefer a closed system".

Because you already have access to an open system in Android. When iOS is forced to open up, those who prefer a closed system have nowhere to go.

Since only Android used to be open (as in: installing apps without Google), those who prefer an open system have nowhere else to go.

They have no other choice than to use Android as their operating system - which is a lack of choice.

 

[surferfb]

Since only Android used to be open (as in: installing apps without Google), those who prefer an open system have nowhere else to go.

They have no other choice than to use Android as their operating system - which is a lack of choice.

No. They have a choice for an open system. Lack of choice is not having an option.

Like those who prefer a closed system in the EU don’t have that option anymore.

 

[AppliedMicro]

No. They have a choice for an open system.

They have no choice between different open systems.

Lack of choice is not having an option.

...between two alternatives.

And "take it or leave it" should not be the choice consumers or businesses have to make.