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data centers and sports stadiums

North Carolina taxpayers are quite literally paying all of Apple's labor costs for this data center for 10 years. A $46 million tax break over 10 years is equal to $92,000 per year per direct employee.

That seems like an awfully poor return on investment for taxpayers.

Also bear in mind that Apple doesn't actually need the $46 million. Apple has a couple tens of billions sitting in the bank already. It is an extremely profitable company.

Agreed. If these jobs average $100,000/yr for 20 yrs and NC's tax rate is 5%, they might break even (and that's generous). Sure there are other benefits, but it smacks of a questionable investment of taxpayer money, kind of like sports stadiums.
 
Agreed. If these jobs average $100,000/yr for 20 yrs and NC's tax rate is 5%, they might break even (and that's generous). Sure there are other benefits, but it smacks of a questionable investment of taxpayer money, kind of like sports stadiums.

Investment? The state is not funding this, it's a tax break. There is no out of pocket expense for the state, but rather there is an inflow of construction jobs increased property values and on-going taxable employee income (I think - Income tax in NC?). One question though is how much strain on community resources (roads, schools). For that a cost-benefit analysis needs to be done. My guess someone did one.

If the state did not offer the tax break, Apple would have gone somewhere else and none of the net-net benefits would have gone to NC. imo .
 
From charlotteobserver.com:

"...In addition to 50 new full-time jobs, the center is expected to bring 250 indirect jobs and Millar said the impact could eventually be 3,000 jobs in related industries..."

I am a bit skeptical about the new jobs, and I wonder how many Apple employees are going to move into the region since Apple can't risk using new employees only. Let's just wait and see what the future brings for the people of Maiden – I for one hope that it's as good as what they are paying for.

Also note the use here of "expected" and "could eventually" which basically means nothing right now.

I would rather have seen a server farm at sea, just like Google is planning one. Which to me appears to be much more ECO friendly, not to mention tax-payer friendly. Anyone noticed this particular piece of text:

"A water source that runs continuously was a big selling point, he said." Required for cooling?

But let's just wait for the building drawings/specs to become public, as that could tell us a lot more :D
 
Congratulations, North Carolina! Now that Apple has landed that sweet deal on their taxes for 10 years, who's going to pick up that slack, pay for all those unlisted expenses ... you know, the ones to pay for the police, pay to fix the roads, the schools? Who's going to fork over all those taxes Apple would have otherwise paid? That's right ... YOU are! I hope it's worth it. :cool:

Oh, and who wants to bet they'll pull the plug on this server farm in 2020 - looking for someone else to kiss their Apple?

I'll take that bet. How often do you hear of a Billion dollar investment that you give up in 10 years? And all this police, roads and schools talk? For 50 jobs? *facepalm*

North Carolina taxpayers are quite literally paying all of Apple's labor costs for this data center for 10 years. A $46 million tax break over 10 years is equal to $92,000 per year per direct employee.

That seems like an awfully poor return on investment for taxpayers.

Also bear in mind that Apple doesn't actually need the $46 million. Apple has a couple tens of billions sitting in the bank already. It is an extremely profitable company.

46 million dollars is not even 5% of the total investment. Plus it's a tax break. NC is not paying Apple. It's a discount. Like a Blue Light special.;)

A lot of us NC taxpayers are pretty pissed off about this whole thing, actually. Our state has become (in)famous for throwing vast sums of taxpayer dollars at companies like Google and Dell and getting very little in return -- certainly not enough to make up for our "investment". And the jobs at the Maiden facility will almost certainly all be low-paying technician jobs.

Fellow North Carolinian, the investments our state has made are absolutely worth it. Planning for the future is never a bad idea. The investments are up front. The benefits are long term.

Agreed. If these jobs average $100,000/yr for 20 yrs and NC's tax rate is 5%, they might break even (and that's generous). Sure there are other benefits, but it smacks of a questionable investment of taxpayer money, kind of like sports stadiums.

Break even? If Apple wasn't coming here, they'd get $0. $0.
 
You people who are nailing NC for a questionable investment must be really unaware of good business sense.

North Carolina will easily make a return on this. It is a $1Bn installment $46million is 4.6% of the building costs alone. $46 million is really a drop in the ocean in the scheme of this project, $4.6 million a year, really is small change to NC and Apple. it is probably more of a publicity play from NC.

It is not whether they will make the money back from taxing the employees, it is the jobs this creates, the infrastructure needed to be built, servicing the facility. NC has also made a strategic investment to bring tech companies to the area and diverse the micro-economics of the area, this in the future will protect jobs. On top of this it is not actually known what the actual use of the site is, most likely iTunes store computing. If i lived in NC i wouldn't get my back up over this, I would welcome it.
 
Yay server farms??

What's the over/under on how many times they run this story again before construction begins?
 
You people who are nailing NC for a questionable investment must be really unaware of good business sense.

North Carolina will easily make a return on this. It is a $1Bn installment $46million is 4.6% of the building costs alone. $46 million is really a drop in the ocean in the scheme of this project, $4.6 million a year, really is small change to NC and Apple. it is probably more of a publicity play from NC...
It is actually a total investment of $1 billion, over a period of ten years, and it includes all Apple hardware – go figure.

This is however a good deal because 750 people are said to have work for something like a year, and all but Apple products are being bought from local companies (when possible) or at least from companies in the region.
 
I'm glad this is official...I live in Catawba County, North Carolina...

I agree with above poster that this as much a publicity thing as an investment, something that could potentially bring more companies to the region
 
Correct me if I'm wrong, but if the state government is giving them a tax break, how is that costing the state money? They are just reducing the amount of tax Apple will pay, in order to entice them to NC.

Unless the server farm places more strain on the NC infrastructure than the balance of the tax bill, then the state is still ahead.

No they are behind. Appleinsider had more info yesterday.
http://www.appleinsider.com/article...lect_maiden_nc_as_site_of_1b_server_farm.html

That picture suggests that this land was formerly a farm. That farm paid property taxes. Apple is probably getting either a large break or don't have to pay at all. That means the county/state money goes down.

Your premise presumes that the folks formerly paying to be on this property were paying money into the county/state that they didn't really need in the first place. ( schools , roads, etc. ) So if it is gone they won't miss it. Or that somehow Apple being there will inject money into the coffers indirectly that will offset what is there.




The construction of this facility will cost the city no money, and create jobs, yet people complain about it, I don't understand.

Construction is a tempory job; in the article they mention one year. This is a 10 year deduction. For many years after construction, whatever incomes construction temporarily brings in, there will be no construction jobs of substance. May be another building they build on same property several years down the road when they fill this one up.

Frankly, what is stop Apple 10 years from now doing the same thing. I'm so poor can't you give me another 10 year break on taxes. "I'll come to your town if I don't have to pull my fair share of the weight" isn't really a good starting point if trying to build a relationship with a community. Sure there will be some who say OK.

Folks are usually queasy about 1 year bonus "for us" and 9 year bonus "for them". You think that is going to balance out?

Then there are probably a few farmers and homeowners who are strapped to come up with property taxes. Here comes Apple with $24 Billion in the bank who gets a free ride. That seem fair at first glance?

There are probably more folks who lost factory jobs who are tweaked because at first blush think that if they had just given their old company a free ride for 10 years their old job would still be there.

If you change things you are going to get a squeaky response out of some subset of a large group.


Also these "tax breaks but we'll make it up in other taxes" situations increasingly rings false with lots of folks. That is the hocus pocus pro sports teams spin when they want communities to pay for their stadiums. Folks in that county likely aren't dim either. Apple isn't going to spend $1 Billion in local stores inside the county. A huge chunk of that is going to go to Duke Energy which is one big company paying another. The little folks are like WTF, trickle down economics? Lots of the money that is being talked about will not be spent in that county. Some of it won't be spent in that state (specialized equipment bought out of state and shipped in.) The "hope" is that somewhere enough is spent in the county/state so that hit breakeven.
So the numbers go all Carl Sagan ' billions and billions ' because if it is enough billions surely the fraction they do get will make up for the $40 million revenue reduction here.

(notice it is now $2 billion as opposed to $1 billion the local development officials are throwing around. )


It is also doubtful that the county facilities won't incur a cost. Bet they need bigger water main going in (for the chillers) and waste water going out than is there now. (unless the old farm sucked down water like a camel.) Likewise there is AT&T data line local but for a top tier data center will need lines from two carriers. Bet someone will be digging and pulling fiber perhaps needing to trench some road sections sometime in the next year. Similarly, there is not obvious electricity substation on the map's picture. Apple will be paying Duke energy for power but bet there is Duke will be screwing around on the roads near there too sometime in the next year.

Usually when companies come in sometimes want vanity street " Acme Corp Way" or something like that which is yet another street to pave and care for (while not paying. ) Not as likely for this, since big data centers are suppose to be undercover and nondescript.


It is one thing when new industrial sites go into old industrial sites.

Frankly it is also a catch-22 too. Google and Apple are in part coming to these places because they are depressed ( which makes often make more energy available and land cheaper). What happens when the areas rebound 10 years from now? Do the moving vans show up and move out the equipment to the next depressed community who is willing to give up even more in taxes?
 
It is actually a total investment of $1 billion, over a period of ten years, and it includes all Apple hardware – go figure.

This is however a good deal because 750 people are said to have work for something like a year, and all but Apple products are being bought from local companies (when possible) or at least from companies in the region.

What is there to figure about it. $100million investment each year against a $4.6million tax break.

Seems like very reciprocal deal.
 
Having lived in NC for a period of time, I know this particular area. There is not much there. Somebody is going to have to spend a bunch of cash to put this in place. Sounds like Apple is the one that is going to be footing the bill to the tune of $1billion. NC is just giving them a discount on the taxes they have to pay on the property improvements that they might make. Cites and states do this all the time. The people that come to town to work for Apple will buy/build homes. They will pay income and property taxes at the full rates. Remember this is small town rural america. The taxes Apple pays alone could most likely fund the whole county for a year who knows.
 
Folks are usually queasy about 1 year bonus "for us" and 9 year bonus "for them". You think that is going to balance out?

Then there are probably a few farmers and homeowners who are strapped to come up with property taxes. Here comes Apple with $24 Billion in the bank who gets a free ride. That seem fair at first glance?

There are probably more folks who lost factory jobs who are tweaked because at first blush think that if they had just given their old company a free ride for 10 years their old job would still be there.


Can't you see that by Apple coming along and setting up shop it strengthens NC's economy. The factory workers, farmers etc who you mention and who may have lost jobs will have greater protection in the future as large installments like this create jobs. The technicians, the delivery men, the security people, the utilities people, the builders, the maintenance men, all these jobs have to come from somewhere and will soak up some of the unemployment in the area. A big tech installment also acts to inspire younger generations to pursue a career in tech. There are nations which would give a lot more than a $46 million tax break for Apple to set up shop and this may have played into NC's 'generosity'.

It isn't about Apple's tax break, it is about the bigger picture. NC can see it, you can't. For a country that prides itself on Capitalist some people are really blind to it.
 
$46 million is really a drop in the ocean in the scheme of this project, $4.6 million a year, really is small change to ... Apple.

If so insignificant then why should Apple push the tax burden onto those for whom it isn't a drop in the bucket? If true why should Apple make it a condition on their coming to the site?

It is a significant amount of money. Even bigger number over here ... don't pay any attention to the significant number of there. .... that is straight wizard of Oz misdirection.

The US/State/etc. governments are in trouble not because folks reduced revenues because magically money was suppose to show up to replace the revenue reductions. If there is not a clear, straightforward illustration of how the new replacement money shows up .... folks should be skeptical.
The Carl Sagan explanation doesn't cut it either.
 
I'll take that bet. How often do you hear of a Billion dollar investment that you give up in 10 years? And all this police, roads and schools talk? For 50 jobs? *facepalm*...

On reflection, I'll concede to your point about uprooting in 10 years, but mark your calendar, and remember this day will you? I wonder how property-owning taxpayers' state and city taxes surrounding Apple's server farm will compare now vs. 5 years after completion of your precious?

Forgive me, I am a bit jaded these days. If the schmagoolie politicians in your state are anything like the ones in mine, you can count on any benefits generated by this investment in Apple as being already spent on the bloated programs your state (and others) cannot afford.

Meanwhile, careful with all the facepalming ... cover those eyes long enough and someone will empty your wallet right under your nose. :p
 
What is there to figure about it. $100million investment each year against a $4.6million tax break.

Seems like very reciprocal deal.
The investment isn't a linear one i.e. Apple won't invest $100 million "in the region" each year, and this number covers all operational costs, including all Apple servers (next to all other hardware) which won't come from Maiden/NC as we know. In other words we'll have to reduce this $100 million figure to say $50 million? Or even lower and say $35 million maybe?

It's still a good deal? Yes, but the numbers aren't presented properly (don't trust me but call Maiden Town Hall and ask for specifications, which I tell you here you won't get from them. And why is that?).
 
We have a similar situation in my city, the mayor gave a large corporation a tax break to convince them to build a facility out near the city line, rather than in another city. The construction of this facility will cost the city no money, and create jobs, yet people complain about it, I don't understand.

I think the concern/issue people have with getting companies to do something in your area is that they are in effect shopping for the best deal and holding cities/counties/states to ransom by saying give us tax breaks or we wont build/operate/etc in your area.

I fully understand that companies are generally aiming to get the best deal to reduce their costs etc etc.

But lets be honest here, why should a company like Apple with approximately US$30 BILLION in cash need to be influenced by tax breaks of US$48 million over ten years? Tax breaks of US$4.8 million per year when Apple is making BILLIONS in bankable profits per year is enough to make a difference? Either the area they selected is appropriate for what they want to build or isnt, state & local governments whoring themselves out should not make a difference in the decision process.

Target was looking for a new store location in the town I used to live in, they already had a store in the town but wanted to build a Super Target and the current location could not handle the required store size.

They were able to get tax breaks from the local government as they decided to openly discuss the possibility of building a new store literally a few feet outside of the town boundries so that none of the tax revenue they generated would continue to go to the town. After the tax breaks were offered, they built the new store in what is now the main shopping area.

Corporations holding government to ransom over tax revenue is poor form but as no one is willing to ban it, it will continue on until someone somewhere royally screws up and the Feds have to step in.
 
On reflection, I'll concede to your point about uprooting in 10 years, but mark your calendar, and remember this day will you? I wonder how property-owning taxpayers' state and city taxes surrounding Apple's server farm will compare now vs. 5 years after completion of your precious?

Forgive me, I am a bit jaded these days. If the schmagoolie politicians in your state are anything like the ones in mine, you can count on any benefits generated by this investment in Apple as being already spent on the bloated programs your state (and others) cannot afford.

Meanwhile, careful with all the facepalming ... cover those eyes long enough and someone will empty your wallet right under your nose. :p

Politicians are, well, politicians. They've already raided the "Education Lottery" for other projects and the state is now billions in debt. But this is exactly why we need this type of business. It's along term deal that will ultimately pocket the state and the area some much needed cash.
 
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