Apple to cut Titanium notebook Pricetags

[mymemory]

"Not at all...I didn't do the purchase order myself, but I know that it was just done through regular special order channels. The cost was somewhere between $2500 and $3000....."

And for $500 more you get the top of the line G4 that include:
-DVD and CD burner (that your computer desn't).
-Audio Output
-2 Firewire and 2 USB ports.
-4 PCI slots (to do whatever you want with them)
-a bunch o video Ram
-Ethernet ready.
-Modem ready
-etc...

Just, how much thouse features will cost on a PC... besides!!!! in a Mac they work as soon you open the box, while you will have to get the lates drive and pray it works with your mother board. That's the PC world. Pay a bit less, suffer a lot more.

 

[randy "long" johnson]

mac to pc... then back?

Just thought I'd add here... that I was raised on a Mac, all the way through high school, and most of college even. Then the time came to purchase my own computer, and having as little money as I did, and after carefully evaluating my options (and the pros and cons), I ended up purchasing a PC. Mac's were just too unaffordable for me at the time.
Everyone told me I'd regret it, and that PC's were a technical nightmare, and not user-freindly by any means.

But, it turned out that, while PC's can certainly have their faults, I found my PC to be extremely efficient.. worked "right out of the box" and everything. Yeah, there was a little learning curve moving from Mac OS to Windows, but, no big deal really.. not like some people would have you believe. Additionally, the crash ratio was more or less the same for me using Windows 95.. in fact, I'd go as far as to say that the Power PC Macs at school crashed a bit more frequently (and systematically) while using Photoshop.

Moreover, during my senior year of college, I needed a new computer and decided to build a PC from scratch (also, because of the lack of money at the time).. once again.. no problems. I did my research, understood the compatibility issues, bought all the parts individually, and installed the OS myself.. no problems (outside of a fried cpu that i had to return). I've used it mostly for schoolwork, doing graphic design and audio recording editing, along with the standard tasks (word processing, etc). So, to this extent, I would have to disagree with the many over-zealous comments seen here on how the PC is totally and utterly inferior to the MAC.. because of its unreliability.

That said, I now find myself in a position where I have some money available and am looking again at purchasing a new computer. The TiBook and the dual 800 Quicksilver are very distinct possibilities at the moment. Why? To tell you the truth I'm not completely certain.. maybe it's a nostalgia thing. I think it has to do with the unified integration of parts, and the excellent attention to aesthetic that Apple administers upon all its products. Those are both things I value highly. Performance-wise, I'm still not sure what the story is. From the neutral benchmarks I've seen, the two systems are more or less comparable. Perhaps some of you could help elucidate the matter for me, as I'm planning on purchasing a new computer in October of this year. But, please.. if you're going to defend one way or the other, try and make your arguments at least semi-objective. I realise this is a Mac forum, and many of us love Apple for all that is and stands for (vs. Microsoft).. but by spouting off spurious comments touting Apple's extreme domination over the PC.. without pragmatic examples to back it up (i.e. "I run Logic Audio and Premiere on both a Mac and a PC, and the Mac is considerably more efficient at accomplishing similar tasks," vs.. "My friend just switched to a PC and regrets it every day cause my Mac is just sooo much faster and better at running everything"), people often backlash when they find out those over-zealous statements aren't necessarily true.

Anyway.. just some thoughts I've been having. Carry on.

 

[Pants]

RJ. nice post !

As pc/mac/unix user I can give the following .... The pc and unix boxes are primarilly used for 'work'. Im one of teh unfortuante few that still writes in FORTRAN, and I find my crusty old sun box easiest to get on with when farting around with F77. dont ask me why - i just dunno - i think its just what Im used to. or maybe im odd - who knows? the pc is also used here at work - research money didnt spread to far at teh time, and besides there are teh odd program or two that isnt mac compatible. However, this is becoming less of a problem - teh virtual pc emulator is very good and runs happily - for most programmes (chemical type database modelling things), i dont notice a dramatic difference in speed when running under an emulator on my mac. The only thing I can say teh pc wins for is in the number of games, although as a quake / UT player, this is again not of a problem for the mac. yes, there are more pc games, but most are transient, and only a few last. Good ones are rapidly ported. The advent of decent graphics cards on apples has really helped here, and again as a real world example, im not hampered dramatically by the lower mhz rating of a 733 g4. Teh price / raw performance between mac and pc is definately coming down. As far as laptops go, you'd be hard beat to find a better deal than the cdrw dvd iBook (although the Ti book deal now seems to be a real tempter! im a real believer that if Im spending good money I want it to look good as well as be good. I will pay a little extra for that little 'wow' factor - if Im underwhelmed in teh first week of ownage, how will I feel in a years time? )

One thing to look out for is os X and XP. personally, im pleased with osX and excited by it. Theres not many pc users excited by XP it seems - some of teh potential 'features' are to be positively dreaded it seems. osX should remove that entire system crash thing we all know and love with os 9. but then XP should do similar. the nice thing about osX is its unix based, with a nice front end. it means you can have teh geeky kudos of a linux user without the hair pulling frustration! stability speed and user freindly geekness. who needs more?

 

[randy "long" johnson]

re: Pants

Hey Pants.. I totally agree.
PC's more of gaming fiend's platform, with more choices, and better video cards to boot.
And I also agree that price and *overall* performance is certainly beginning to even out quite a bit.

One question I've been having is, which is *really* better for audio/video applications? I hear so much from both sides, saying that Apple, "kicks ass on pc.. just look at what the majority of the industry is using.. that should tell you something." But, I don't really buy that.. much of the reason the a/v industry has a Mac majority, is because of habit, and because mac was undoubtedly an a/v platform long before the PC was even running Photoshop. At the same time, I hear from some people that, "Oh, all that Mac touting is just smoke up yr ass," and that, "PC's have evened out with Mac's across the board"... and I don't really buy that either, because so many of the PC users that make those claims are gamers, or programmers, or business types, who don't really use Photoshop or Premiere or Cubase enough to know how the chip deals with floating point calculations and so forth on a pro-level (forgive me if I'm talking out my arse here..)

Which just leaves me confused.

And, to bring this thread back on topic.. the danger I see with Apple lowering the prices (marginally) and not releasing advanced components, is when you have a general cross-section of consumers/pro-sumers like myself, (and many of my friends and people I know), confused about the application specific ratings of a $3600 laptop with limited expandability options, and how they compare to its competition, which sells an equivalent laptop (component-wise) for less.. then survival instinct is going to convince us to either wait for the next expo and hope for something new (and accept the possibility of being severly let down), consider the alternatives to a $3600 laptop (especially when the iBook is considerably less and the Quicksilver is negligibly more), or go with the cheaper, more mainstream product (i.e. windows-based-PC).

Oh, and I agree with you about OSX.. it's definitely promising. At first glance, I thought it was a little too consumer-ish and goofy with all the animated windows and so forth. But it's looking like it could really be a pro-level op sys. I'm curious to know how the dual 800's are running optimised programs on OSX... (can't wait for Logic Audio 5 this september!)

Sorry for all the tangents here..

 

[apple ok i guess]

i am a mac

Look people iam buying a mac, a Tibook g4.

but damm i just wish it had a few additons...

like a cdr-dw

a better graphics card ( no one can deny that the g3 powerbooks had then a year or so ago)

and a speed bump would be since i wait the better half of the year...

heck a lowered $2000 tibook is okay but if iam spending that money i rather add a few more bucks and get something i really will love to own.

apple OS X is amazing the only reason iam buying a mac.

otherwise the hardware is good, but iam somebody who has always built my machines with the best of everything just the way i like them. something pc vendors sometimes cant do.

 

[apple ok i guess]

iam getting a mac!

Look people iam buying a mac, a Tibook g4.

but damm i just wish it had a few additons...

like a cdr-dw

a better graphics card ( no one can deny that the g3 powerbooks had then a year or so ago)

and a speed bump would be since i wait the better half of the year...

heck a lowered $2000 tibook is okay but if iam spending that money i rather add a few more bucks and get something i really will love to own.

apple OS X is amazing the only reason iam buying a mac.

otherwise the hardware is good, but iam somebody who has always built my machines with the best of everything just the way i like them. something pc vendors sometimes cant do.

 

[john123]

ummm...

Originally posted by mymemory
"Not at all...I didn't do the purchase order myself, but I know that it was just done through regular special order channels. The cost was somewhere between $2500 and $3000....."

And for $500 more you get the top of the line G4 that include:
-DVD and CD burner (that your computer desn't).
-Audio Output
-2 Firewire and 2 USB ports.
-4 PCI slots (to do whatever you want with them)
-a bunch o video Ram
-Ethernet ready.
-Modem ready
-etc...

Just, how much thouse features will cost on a PC... besides!!!! in a Mac they work as soon you open the box, while you will have to get the lates drive and pray it works with your mother board. That's the PC world. Pay a bit less, suffer a lot more.

Sorry guy, but the PC has everything you talked about for that price tag I mentioned with the exception of DVD-R. All for $500-$1000 less than the Mac. It's even better on many fronts (e.g., 64 MB of VRAM).

I still prefer the Mac...I'm just saying you can get more bang for your buck with a PC. But then, that's always been the case.

 

[bix]

please grow up people

*_* go to toysrus.com for stupid discussions like that.

 

[~/indigo]

SMP in x86 and other issues

Dual Dell:
Judging by the description of the dual 1.4 GHz Dell I am guessing that it is using P4 CPUs. You might be interested in knowing that, in general, x86 doesn't work well in SMP (and it scales horribly). The P4 is a good example of a worst case scenario. SMP is something dominated by RISC machines (it was one of the main ideas behind the design of many of them). As is such, it works best with them. I am also interested in what OS you are running. I hope that it isn't NT-based. They neglected to work in an efficient task scheduling component to the kernel so you waste alot of cycles (although with 2 CPUs it isn't terrible). I hope that you are using something *NIX-based or BeOS. Those are designed with SMP in mind so they tend to do it well.

The games argument:
I will never understand why people use the argument that they use Windows for the games. If you want games, buy a Play Station 2. Save tons of cash in the process and get better graphics performance.

The matter at hand:
This price cut was badly needed. Even though the G4 kicks the G3's ass for every type of operation, it wasn't worth paying that kind of a premium. This puts things in perspective. It is now a tough choice to make (the iBook used to have it, hands down). Although I would like to see a faster CPU and higher system bus speeds, it isn't really an issue.
Let's not forget that these G4 CPUs used by the TiBooks are probably the best designed CPUs of all time. They still hold the 4-stage pipeline and they have a L2 1 MB cache! That is sweet and it is why one of these is only slightly slower than the new 733 QuickSilver systems (that cache really kicks ass).
Generally, we still beat out the competition.

Desktops are more of a cause for concern but the current economic state is a good reason to hold off on the "next big thing" since you wouldn't sell any anyway.

Just my thoughts,
~/indigo

 

[ThlayliTheFierce]

Re: ummm...

Originally posted by john123
Sorry guy, but the PC has everything you talked about for that price tag I mentioned with the exception of DVD-R. All for $500-$1000 less than the Mac. It's even better on many fronts (e.g., 64 MB of VRAM).

I still prefer the Mac...I'm just saying you can get more bang for your buck with a PC. But then, that's always been the case. [/B]

Price of a DVD-RW drive: $650

If you were to add this to your dual P4, the price would even out, if not end up costing you more than the Mac. And the dual 800 comes with GeForce 3 64 mb.

 

[spikey]

you ****ing idiots

Y are you comparing P4 to Macs, every1 knows that the Athlon is cheaper and faster than the P4.
Also why the hell are you comparing dual processor P4s to dual macs, PC software is not optimised for dual processing so on average it is only 3% faster than a single P4.
Put it this way, i have just built a:
1.4Ghz athlon
256 Mb DDR ram
Asus Geforce 3
7000 rpm 40 gig IBM hard drive

I have built this for under £1000, to add a DVD drive and CDRW drive it would cost another £300.
the plain and simple fact is that for under £1500 i can get a top of the range PC and yet for the top of the range G4 i have to pay another £1000
Use your ****ing heads people

 

[Pants]

hmm... p4 or teh p3 is no more of a CISC chip than a g4 is a risc chip. Its ok comparing one with other, but using outdated terminology to 'prove a point' ruins it.
Its teh same as the mhz myth (as teh guy abouve so elegantly put it) a 1.4 ghz athlon out performs your 1.7ghz thlon. But the public *has* got tied into it, and intel have painted themselves into a corner....
As for Spikey - well yeah. have your Athlon box. have your windows XP box. and try not swear at it.

The amount of Vram is not a measure of how good a graphics card is ('wow! a 64 meg rage pro!! woot! ' ), and consoles suck for certain game formats. Like it or not, games help sell home machines (just look how big the industry is....). They are still one of teh BEST benchmarks IMO, simply because they push teh limit of memory, cpu and graphics card, whilst being optimised for that platform. Games remove that thorny photoshop bleat of "waaaw!! its not optimised!!". And how many folks at home own a full legit copy of photoshop and really need full colour seperations on a daily basis??

Randy - the video editing thing on mac. Its a fair number of factors - good firewire support, tight product specification, meaning fewer problems with drivers, and as far as iMovie goes, good intuitive design, without all teh whistles and bells of a £400 pound video editing suite. IMovie is good, if you have a use for it. A large part of computer using for me, is not how fast your machine runs, but how fast I achieve my goal. Its like sprinting around blindly only to have to turn round and and retrace your steps. Sometimes it is better to gently saunter and get there first time!

 

[spikey]

u stink

i will swear at it as much as i swear at macs and their fps ratings, their price, their value for money, their damn lack of games.

 

[john123]

Re: Re: ummm...

Originally posted by ThlayliTheFierce

Originally posted by john123
Sorry guy, but the PC has everything you talked about for that price tag I mentioned with the exception of DVD-R. All for $500-$1000 less than the Mac. It's even better on many fronts (e.g., 64 MB of VRAM).

I still prefer the Mac...I'm just saying you can get more bang for your buck with a PC. But then, that's always been the case.

Price of a DVD-RW drive: $650

If you were to add this to your dual P4, the price would even out, if not end up costing you more than the Mac. And the dual 800 comes with GeForce 3 64 mb. [/B]

$2650 (I just got the price quote) +$650 does not = $3500. Also, you are forgetting about the CD-RW/DVD combo already built into the machine...that has some value, yes? So you can subtract that "value" from your $650. Never mind the fact that the dual-1.4 Ghz is so much more mindbogglingly fast than any of the Macs I've used, including the latest incarnations.

 

[falc420]

September revision, anyone?

Does anybody think that this price cut might have paved the way for a third model of the PB G4 in September?

Base model for $2199
Midrange for $2999?
High-end for $3499

-Colin

 

[ThlayliTheFierce]

Hey john123 I was just going off of your "$2500-$3000" price quote.

 

[ultrarad]

I'm BACK ---

You know, after seven Macs, you'd think that I'd be more willing to work with such a great company as Apple, but when I went to order my Tibook from the Academic Education Store, this is what happened. My order wasn't processed on time - so I called and the RUDE lady told me that it might not totally process until the 3rd (and I ordered on the 23rd of July) and if this WAS the case, that I WOULDN'T get the free cd-rw drive. COME ON APPLE - give me a break. So, I'm going to cancel my order on Monday and go to Clubmac where I can forgo the free RAM and get my book for $2,049 - NO SALES TAX either. Hmmm-----if I weren't such a MAC freak, I just might move to PC's. Opening up MAc stores isn't going to help sell computers - Intelligent, highly helpful people are what sell computers - Poor Steve - he STILL doesn't get it.......

(as the Tibook Turns - I think that would be a great Soap Opera)

 

[Hes Nikke]

back on topic....

For ***** and giggles I decided to configure a BTO system of the new normal price and then the same system on education and compare the two against the order I placed one week ago today. (that still hasn’t even been started to be assembled! What the **** is wrong with apple’s BTO system?! - I don’t use it often, the last machine I BTO’d was my beige G3 in 1998)

Here are the results: while the retail price has gone down by a few hundred dollars, the educational price has actually gone UP! I paid $94 less then the prices are now, isn't it interesting that apple began a $50 rebate just after I placed my order?

So basically that $50 rebate is ARTIFICIAL hmmm... Apple really is trying to push it's sales to education... Yet at least the PowerBook's are now MORE expensive!

System I BTO'd
PowerBook (duh)
500 MHz
10 GB HD
128 MB RAM
Everything else stock

NEW Normal $2699
NEW educational $2537
OLD educational - the price I ordered at $2443

Hes Nikke-paid-less-for-TiBook! : now I rely am glad I ordered when I did! AND I still get the free CD burner (in 2 or 3 months) ^_^

 

[WindexMonkey]

grrrr

Price drop no help. Still not enuff green in my pocket for 1.

 

[Hes Nikke]

Re: Re: back on topic....

Originally posted by john123

Originally posted by Hes Nikke
System I BTO'd
PowerBook (duh)
500 MHz
10 GB HD
128 MB RAM
Everything else stock

NEW Normal $2699
NEW educational $2537
OLD educational - the price I ordered at $2443

Hes Nikke-paid-less-for-TiBook! : now I rely am glad I ordered when I did! AND I still get the free CD burner (in 2 or 3 months) ^_^

I don't know what the hell you just said (this is the whole English thing again)...but there is no way you got a PowerBook cheaper before the price cut than after. Even if you played around with BTO options. Check your math. [/B]

try it your self! bto that system on educational, you'll see that it comes up at $2537, yet i did order at $2443

facts are facts!

here is a mirror of my order page, it clearly says that i ordered the above system at $2443, yet when i configure that system on the educational BTO i now get $2537!

[Edited by Hes Nikke on 08-29-2001 at 02:43 AM]

 

[john123]

Re: Re: Re: back on topic....

Originally posted by Hes Nikke

Originally posted by john123

Originally posted by Hes Nikke
System I BTO'd
PowerBook (duh)
500 MHz
10 GB HD
128 MB RAM
Everything else stock

NEW Normal $2699
NEW educational $2537
OLD educational - the price I ordered at $2443

Hes Nikke-paid-less-for-TiBook! : now I rely am glad I ordered when I did! AND I still get the free CD burner (in 2 or 3 months) ^_^

I don't know what the hell you just said (this is the whole English thing again)...but there is no way you got a PowerBook cheaper before the price cut than after. Even if you played around with BTO options. Check your math.

try it your self! bto that system on educational, you'll see that it comes up at $2537, yet i did order at $2443

facts are facts!

i could mirror my order if you want me to, it clearly says that i ordered the above system at $2443, yet when i configure that system on the educational BTO i now get $2537! [/B]

"BTO" for Apple is not altogether different from their stock machines.
The "old" institutional price for the PowerBook (400 Mhz) was $2339. That's not for individuals -- that's for school orders only (unless your school had a special deal with Apple whereby faculty, staff, and students could be given that price). It was $3149 for the fully-loaded 500 Mhz.

Now, I want to say that the price to upgrade *just* the processor on the 400 Mhz model was $360, although I am not entirely certain of that. If that were the case, then the old INSTITUTIONAL pricing would have been $2699 -- which is a higher price by a lot than what you quoted. And it'd be higher still for faculty and staff and students.

Anyway, I've been pricing PowerBooks on educational pricing for months now, which is why I still contend that your math doesn't add up. Are you sure you didn't order a refurbished model? I'd love to see that mirrror you offered....

 

[Hes Nikke]

Re: Re: Re: Re: back on topic....

Originally posted by john123

Originally posted by Hes Nikke

Originally posted by john123

Originally posted by Hes Nikke
System I BTO'd
PowerBook (duh)
500 MHz
10 GB HD
128 MB RAM
Everything else stock

NEW Normal $2699
NEW educational $2537
OLD educational - the price I ordered at $2443

Hes Nikke-paid-less-for-TiBook! : now I rely am glad I ordered when I did! AND I still get the free CD burner (in 2 or 3 months) ^_^

I don't know what the hell you just said (this is the whole English thing again)...but there is no way you got a PowerBook cheaper before the price cut than after. Even if you played around with BTO options. Check your math.

try it your self! bto that system on educational, you'll see that it comes up at $2537, yet i did order at $2443

facts are facts!

i could mirror my order if you want me to, it clearly says that i ordered the above system at $2443, yet when i configure that system on the educational BTO i now get $2537!

"BTO" for Apple is not altogether different from their stock machines.
The "old" institutional price for the PowerBook (400 Mhz) was $2339. That's not for individuals -- that's for school orders only (unless your school had a special deal with Apple whereby faculty, staff, and students could be given that price). It was $3149 for the fully-loaded 500 Mhz.

Now, I want to say that the price to upgrade *just* the processor on the 400 Mhz model was $360, although I am not entirely certain of that. If that were the case, then the old INSTITUTIONAL pricing would have been $2699 -- which is a higher price by a lot than what you quoted. And it'd be higher still for faculty and staff and students.

Anyway, I've been pricing PowerBooks on educational pricing for months now, which is why I still contend that your math doesn't add up. Are you sure you didn't order a refurbished model? I'd love to see that mirrror you offered.... [/B]

the mirror is up (scroll up)

if i did order a refurbished model (can you BTO those things?!) i'm going to be giveng apple a little phone call when the machine show up, because i didn't ask for a refurb.

the price that i got was from educational personal pricing, the price for a student or teacher for personal use. (i happen to be the former) all i did was log on last week and check prices (i did know that educatioal prices had droped), then i called 1-800-MY-APPLE and walked through the phone system and orderd the machine. then like i said above for ***** and giggles i wnat and checked prices after the retail price drop and wamo i got the higher price.

Hes Nikke
i'm being to lazy to fix my spealing and typos

 

[john123]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: back on topic....

Originally posted by Hes Nikke

the mirror is up (scroll up)

if i did order a refurbished model (can you BTO those things?!) i'm going to be giveng apple a little phone call when the machine show up, because i didn't ask for a refurb.

the price that i got was from educational personal pricing, the price for a student or teacher for personal use. (i happen to be the former) all i did was log on last week and check prices (i did know that educatioal prices had droped), then i called 1-800-MY-APPLE and walked through the phone system and orderd the machine. then like i said above for ***** and giggles i wnat and checked prices after the retail price drop and wamo i got the higher price.

Hes Nikke
i'm being to lazy to fix my spealing and typos [/B]

Hmm. I don't know what's up with that. It used to be that for educational personal purchases, the price on the 400 Mhz model was right around what that invoice says you paid. If this is direct from Apple and all, I would suggest that, after you receive your machine, you call Apple and ask what the hell the story was -- because I can tell you that given the best of all possible options on the Apple website, you were not supposed to have been able to spec out a PowerBook with a 500 for anything under $2600.....if they screwed up and gave you too low of a price, go you....and if they sent you a refurb or something, then they should replace it with a new unit *AND* they should do it for the same price (after putting you, Joe Customer, through such an ordeal).

All I'm saying is that you should have the caution flag up. As a person who has been following TiPB prices to buy one when the price is right (and the features are right), something is fishy here.

 

[ThomasB]

Here's what happened...

On August the 18th Apple lowered the price of the PowerBook G4/400 to $2,067 (from $2,443) and the PowerBook G4/500 to $2,819 (from $3,283).

A BTO option on the PowerBook G4/400 was a 500Mhz CPU. This price (as of August 18*) was $376*, yeilding a final price of $2,443.

Once Apple lowered the PowerBook G4 prices for everyone elso the prices came to $2,199 for a G4/400 for only $2067 and $2,999 for the G4/500.

Now a BTO option on the PowerBook G4/400 is an upgrade to a 500Mhz CPU. This price is now $470, raising the price to $2,537.

*I'm not 100% sure of the original CPU option price, or when it changed, but it's close, and it seems to make sense, no?

-ThomasB

 

[john123]

verifying

So am I getting it right that the BTO "add-on" price somehow increased from $3xx to $4xx for education BTO?

If so, that's really strange...I wouldn't expect a retail price drop to affect the price of add-ons on education. Crazy....