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UX, as a whole, IS NOT a personal taste. I'm not talking so much about silly looks, like flat-design, though that can have an impact on UX. Apple spent much of their early years doing study after study on UX, and implementing that into the Mac OX (and producing guidelines for software devs). Now, Apple is one of the most prolific breakers of what they learned early on.

And, then careless, purposeful, buggy software and services don't make the above any better. I've got a whole folder full of poor UI choices and problems Apple has introduced over the last several years. If I ever get time, I'm going to start a series of blog posts on them.

For example, try changing the email address of an Apple ID sometime. Or, consider Spotlight from several years back to where it is now. Or, look at the UI and feature mis-match between the same app on iOS/macOS. Or, in going 'flat' the move from the use of color and meaningful icons/metaphors to nondescript icons and lack of color (which greatly slows recognition). Or, while I don't agree on everything, this article points out a number of good points and principals Apple is now breaking:
http://www.theverge.com/2015/11/16/9743996/apple-designer-interview-bruce-tog-tognazzini-don-norman



Quite possibly. And, for some fairly good percentage of people, it's quite possible they might switch to iPhone, iPad, etc. Still, I've met few of them who only use these devices, at least in North America. And, even those who personally do, often use a desktop/laptop at work (i.e.: they can get by in their personal lives watching Netflix, listening to some music, and maybe a bit of browsing, etc.).

Also, next big thing doesn't mean the end of the previous. The truck analogy is a good example there. And, there's the problem. Tim sees big pie slice, and determines to shift all effort to said big pie slice. That's dumb... it's an eco-system.



Yea, that thought was going through the back of my mind as I watched it. I'm guessing Job's 'off the top of head' stat there, was pretty far off... unless you live in SF & Bay area. :)



Well said, especially that last phrase. Wall Street is fundamentally at opposition with innovation and long-term well-being. One of the brilliant things about Jobs, was his ability to play them like a fiddle (and in so doing, be able to do things with Apple that a typical tech company can't get away with). Tim, on the other hand, seems to be doing just what they like... and that works great, until it doesn't. :(
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I'm not looking for that. Apple didn't even do that. That's why when Steve died, and Tim took over, I figured enough of Steve's ideals were baked into Apple. I was writing against this idea that Apple would be in trouble w/o Steve. Then, Apple started shifting away from core principals. And, trying too hard to 'innovate' and screwing up. And, making fools of themselves trying to market it.

I don't need rapid innovation, so much as stability and lack of rapid deterioration.

The Verge article has some good points, many of which I agree with. However, i don't find any of them as devastatingly destructive as they do. Certainly nothing that would cause me to consider using another OS.

I don't think PCs will disappear overnight. But, again, there's an unmistakable downtrend in the industry and mobile is the future. That being said, I do believe there will always be a place for full fledged desktop systems albeit smaller needs. It was great to see that in contrast to the rest of the industry, Mac sales returned to growth in the latest quarter.

Part of me really did like how Steve never catered to Wall Street and didn't give dividends. I would have loved to see Apple with $1T in cash. But that's unrealistic and Tim did what was right in starting to issue dividends. It's good that he did so without reducing liquidity. There's nothing Tim can do about multiples and stock price. That will take care of itself and we've been seeing a bit of a correction in recent weeks. This is a good thing and it helps attract talent since many are compensated with stock options.

I continue to believe that Steve's core values remain at Apple. I don't know which products have made them look foolish. But I am glad they never made a car.

Stability is also what I was hoping for after Steve's passing and I feel like we have that. Apple's not going anywhere any time soon. I don't see any rapid deterioration.
 
They can't get rid of the 2012 MBP's - they're still selling them in the refurbished store. Where are they finding them?

I dunno but I saw that and picked up a couple last year and put applecare on them. I needed something to replace some long-in-tooth machines I was passing on to neighborhood kids. Anyway the 2012s are sturdy and perfectly serviceable for anyone whose computing doesn't begin to test that machine's limits. I prefer them so far to what I've seen put up since then, for my own requirements. Again though it's because I don't ask a lot of the machine. I like having those ports, and I like having the optical drive as well. It's a machine that outlasts other makers' "equivalent" models by years. And, living in the boondocks I have come to love Apple's turnaround on warrantied repairs, the few times something has actually gone wrong with any of my gear.
 
"Obsolete" that's the word that comes to mind when comparing a 2016 MBP with anything that has a serious keyboard and battery life.
Or pretty much the whole Mac lineup except maybe the iMac
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The Verge article has some good points, many of which I agree with. However, i don't find any of them as devastatingly destructive as they do. Certainly nothing that would cause me to consider using another OS.

I don't think PCs will disappear overnight. But, again, there's an unmistakable downtrend in the industry and mobile is the future. That being said, I do believe there will always be a place for full fledged desktop systems albeit smaller needs. It was great to see that in contrast to the rest of the industry, Mac sales returned to growth in the latest quarter.
.
The Post-PC era hasn't come, nor will, but the mobile trend you superficially address needs some out-of-the-box rethinking. The failure to do so just shows how disconnected Apple has become. The end-of-PC statement denies the whole IT-industry and therefore is a omission of Balmeric proportions.
The new generation of 15...25 year olds will never give up their real touchscreens. It doesn't care about Cook, Apple's legacy or it's inflated Pro label. It urges for a modern convert offering: MacBook functionality without giving up iPad multi-touch. And yes, that device will initially compete with current MacBook and iPad. But it will open a new market that is soo many times bigger.
And yes, it requires a convolute iOS/MacOS or whatever serves the goal.
So that takes courage. And a vision beyond removing a headphone port or MagSafe adapter. Or a TouchBar.
As nice as the TouchBar can be for some tasks, it is a sad compromise. A 4th interface element (next to keyboard, screen, mouse) competing for user attention only adds to complexity. It doesn't solve the elementary lack of a multi-touchscreen. TouchBar was an escape to avoid tough decisions from the current navel-gazing Apple. It is the Warchband of the MacBook: a gimmick to deny the bigger and better step forward..
The Pro label for a phoneOS equipped tablet is marketing butt-talk that real tech savvy companies wouldn't use. Symptom of a lamentary Apple, avoiding change, unable to see evolution - let alone to ignite it. Unable to define a new product category - leaving the future to Microsoft and the Taiwanese IT industry.
 
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"Obsolete" that's the word that comes to mind when comparing a 2016 MBP with anything that has a serious keyboard and battery life.
Or pretty much the whole Mac lineup except maybe the iMac
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The Post-PC era hasn't come, nor will, but the mobile trend you superficially address needs some out-of-the-box rethinking. The failure to do so just shows how disconnected Apple has become. The end-of-PC statement denies the whole IT-industry and therefore is a omission of Balmeric proportions.
The new generation of 15...25 year olds will never give up their real touchscreens. It doesn't care about Cook, Apple's legacy or it's inflated Pro label. It urges for a modern convert offering: MacBook functionality without giving up iPad multi-touch. And yes, that device will initially compete with current MacBook and iPad. But it will open a new market that is soo many times bigger.
And yes, it requires a convolute iOS/MacOS or whatever serves the goal.
So that takes courage. And a vision beyond removing a headphone port or MagSafe adapter. Or a TouchBar.
As nice as the TouchBar can be for some tasks, it is a sad compromise. A 4th interface element (next to keyboard, screen, mouse) competing for user attention only adds to complexity. It doesn't solve the elementary lack of a multi-touchscreen. TouchBar was an escape to avoid tough decisions from the current navel-gazing Apple. It is the Warchband of the MacBook: a gimmick to deny the bigger and better step forward..
The Pro label for a phoneOS equipped tablet is marketing butt-talk that real tech savvy companies wouldn't use. Symptom of a lamentary Apple, avoiding change, unable to see evolution - let alone to ignite it. Unable to define a new product category - leaving the future to Microsoft and the Taiwanese IT industry.

Whether or not a "post PC era" exists or ever will, I don't know. I was just quoting what Steve said. I can't tell the future and I have no idea where the future will lead.

You obviously seem to feel that a touch screen Mac would represent some sort of great innovation. It's foolish to assume that Apple hasn't explored the possibility, because they have:
Touch-screen Mac unlikely, says Apple's Federighi - CNET
Apple design chief Jony Ive rules out touchscreen Macs | Macworld

What I do know is that OWC used convert MacBooks in to OS X tablets. I have no idea how successful they were but I do know that they no longer do these conversions.
For those who really do want touch, Cintiqs have been available for years but I don't see them very often at all.

It sounds like you were really enamored with Microsoft's Surface Studio going so far as to calling it a new product category. I see it as nothing more than a Surface Table repackaged. Microsoft really likes talking up the Surface Studio, but here's some reality:
Microsoft's new Surface Studio Desktop Sales for the Quarter were Really Surprising - Patently Apple
They have been trying to push this for years and it hasn't gained much traction yet...

I don't own a crystal ball and I highly doubt you own one either. I'm not going to speculate or make assumptions on what the market wants, needs, or are willing to pay for.
 
New isn't really in the cards right now, perhaps something in-between? 2014 or so? 13.3 is the perfect size, would be nice to have hand-off capabilities that I don't currently have.

The 2014 models represent a good balance, in my opinion. The one thing I would look for is 16GB of RAM since it's not upgradable.
 
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Whether or not a "post PC era" exists or ever will, I don't know. I was just quoting what Steve said. I can't tell the future and I have no idea where the future will lead.

You obviously seem to feel that a touch screen Mac would represent some sort of great innovation. It's foolish to assume that Apple hasn't explored the possibility, because they have:
Touch-screen Mac unlikely, says Apple's Federighi - CNET
Apple design chief Jony Ive rules out touchscreen Macs | Macworld

What I do know is that OWC used convert MacBooks in to OS X tablets. I have no idea how successful they were but I do know that they no longer do these conversions.
For those who really do want touch, Cintiqs have been available for years but I don't see them very often at all.

It sounds like you were really enamored with Microsoft's Surface Studio going so far as to calling it a new product category. I see it as nothing more than a Surface Table repackaged. Microsoft really likes talking up the Surface Studio, but here's some reality:
Microsoft's new Surface Studio Desktop Sales for the Quarter were Really Surprising - Patently Apple
They have been trying to push this for years and it hasn't gained much traction yet...

I don't own a crystal ball and I highly doubt you own one either. I'm not going to speculate or make assumptions on what the market wants, needs, or are willing to pay for.
No crystal balls here either.
I am aware of the OWC (was it Cintiq?) convolute that was too early to attract those who grew up with iPads. I know that Apple didn't endorse the idea. So this indeed wasn't a commercial success and probably got killed before it even had a fair chance and/or momentum to succeed.
Whether MS Surface will gain enough momentum at its current price point also remains to be seen.
But I merely applaud these companies because of their huge efforts and their out of the box thinking. And this is exactly where I expect Apple to lead where these companies struggle.
Apple's endeavors relative to its mammoth size and resources are plain minimalist.
It persists in separated, shrinking tablet & laptop market segments because of its denial to merge iOS / macOS or or inability to create something new.
Blaming soft markets is just plainly unacceptable for those who have the power to drive them.
I do not know where they spend their 12 billion R&D yearly on, but very little is coming out of their pipeline.
1 new MacBook and 1 new iPhone model every 4 year are marginal accomplishments for a $1T and 100k employee company.
TouchBar and AirPods are the watchbands of the Mac/iPhone: accesories to appease the crowds and divert attention from the core issues that must remain invisible in their closed environment.
 
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It persists in separated, shrinking tablet & laptop market segments because of its denial to merge iOS / macOS or or inability to create something new.

I am not so sure that is desirable, given the different form factors and ways you interact with them. What is needed, IMHO, is the ability to seamlessly transition from one to the other; for example when editing a document or spreadsheet.
Rather than trying to make one OS that works on both types of devices make each simply an extension of the workflow.

That could ultimately result in one underlying kernel with a different interface and power based on the processor and form factor to make it easy to maintain, but trying to create one uniform interface for two very diferent form factors would be problematic, IMHO.

Blaming soft markets is just plainly unacceptable for those who have the power to drive them.
I do not know where they spend their 12 billion R&D yearly on, but very little is coming out of their pipeline.
1 new MacBook and 1 new iPhone model every 4 year are marginal accomplishments for a $1T and 100k employee company.
TouchBar and AirPods are the watchbands of the Mac/iPhone: accesories to appease the crowds and divert attention from the core issues that must remain invisible in their closed environment.

I think a big part of that is Apple is not a computer company but one focused on creating its own all encompassing eco system form home to desktop to wrist...
 
No crystal balls here either.
I am aware of the OWC (was it Cintiq?) convolute that was too early to attract those who grew up with iPads. I know that Apple didn't endorse the idea. So this indeed wasn't a commercial success and probably got killed before it even had a fair chance and/or momentum to succeed.
Whether MS Surface will gain enough momentum at its current price point also remains to be seen.
But I merely applaud these companies because of their huge efforts and their out of the box thinking. And this is exactly where I expect Apple to lead where these companies struggle.
Apple's endeavors relative to its mammoth size and resources are plain minimalist.
It persists in separated, shrinking tablet & laptop market segments because of its denial to merge iOS / macOS or or inability to create something new.
Blaming soft markets is just plainly unacceptable for those who have the power to drive them.
I do not know where they spend their 12 billion R&D yearly on, but very little is coming out of their pipeline.
1 new MacBook and 1 new iPhone model every 4 year are marginal accomplishments for a $1T and 100k employee company.
TouchBar and AirPods are the watchbands of the Mac/iPhone: accesories to appease the crowds and divert attention from the core issues that must remain invisible in their closed environment.

Here's a Cintiq and, yes, it works with macOS:
DTH2700-12-g.jpg
http://www.wacom.com/en-es/products/pen-displays/cintiq-27-qhd-touch

As you can see, the Surface Studio is nothing more than a repackaged Surface Table with elements stolen from Wacom. I fail to see the great innovation there.

It's a matter of opinion whether a "throwing darts in the dark and hoping something sticks" approach is better than truly putting thought in to how useful a feature is before actually releasing it as Apple has clearly done in regards to touch screen Macs. Perhaps this is part of the UX consideration that was mentioned earlier in the thread...

R&D is expensive. Talent costs money. The last time I checked, Apple's R&D spending is still less than their closest peers.
-1x-1.png

Source: The Big Spenders on R&D - Bloomberg View

How successful and whether users will find the TouchBar useful remains to be seen. AirPods have drawn much praise from what I've seen. I do hope you are right and that the TouchBar and AirPods become as essential to Mac and iPhone users as a watchband is to anyone who wears a watch.
 
OK cintiq is different from what I recalled from OWC:
https://eshop.macsales.com/customiz...m?system=18b156bd-86d3-4679-8dd0-f2b942480fdc
This modbook was too early (and it lacked multi-touch) to attract the next generation that urges for a touchscreen (not a TouchBar)
But it's direction as the first truly portable MacBook-Tablet combi is clear.
And "throwing darts in the dark" isn't that far away from Apple. It's exactly what happened to AppleWatch both in terms of marketing (online only, special outlets, 3rd party luxury boutiques, now only online & AppleStores), product positioning (health & sports, special editions, exclusive versions, now just sports and limited exclusivity) and hw features (GPS in Ed2 making Ed1 essentially a beta)
And oh, AirPods will certainly be a success. Its the lowest hanging and biggest fruit that fits everyone's budget
A revolution of dental floss box proportions...
 
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OK cintiq is different from what I recalled from OWC:
https://eshop.macsales.com/customiz...m?system=18b156bd-86d3-4679-8dd0-f2b942480fdc
This modbook was too early (and it lacked multi-touch) to attract the next generation that urges for a touchscreen (not a TouchBar)
But it's direction as the first truly portable MacBook-Tablet combi is clear.
And "throwing darts in the dark" isn't that far away from Apple. It's exactly what happened to AppleWatch both in terms of marketing (online only, special outlets, 3rd party luxury boutiques, now only online & AppleStores), product positioning (health & sports, special editions, exclusive versions, now just sports and limited exclusivity) and hw features (GPS in Ed2 making Ed1 essentially a beta)
And oh, AirPods will certainly be a success. Its the lowest hanging and biggest fruit that fits everyone's budget
A revolution of dental floss box proportions...

My point was that options have been available for those who want touch screen Macs, but none have really gained much traction.

You can call it "throwing darts" if you like, except the in the case of the Apple watch it seems to be working.

“During the first week of holiday shopping, our sell-through of Apple Watch [the number of watches that made it into consumers’ hands] was greater than any week in the product,” Cook told Reuters over email late Monday, without mentioning the report. “And as we expected, we’re on track for the best quarter ever for Apple Watch.”
Source: Tim Cook says the Apple Watch is a success — just take his word for it – VICE News

Meanwhile, the darts don't seem to be sticking nearly as well for Microsoft who is no longer peddling the Microsoft Band...
Microsoft pulls Band listings from its Store; admits no Band 3 this year | ZDNet

If even you believe the AirPods will be a success, why do you complain about it?
 
And oh, AirPods will certainly be a success. Its the lowest hanging and biggest fruit that fits everyone's budget
A revolution of dental floss box proportions...

LOL!

Exactly correct.

Shame about the sound.
 
I probably wouldn't update it regardless. Simply because the machine is getting older and as you alluded to, there's not enough upside. Worst case scenario, you can always test it and roll it back if needed. Apple will list what machines are eligible for OS updates but always worth reviewing others experiences first.

And buy a copy of Carbon Copy Cloner. -Cause ya' never know...
 
My point was that options have been available for those who want touch screen Macs, but none have really gained much traction.

I think you're discounting all the important factors why touch screen mac's aren't popular, despite things like Wacom bringing touch to OSx.

FIRST: OSx is terrible with touch. people like to mock windows desktop mode for not being super great for touch, But OSx is downright unusable. items are too tiny and precise. menus to thin and small. borders impossible to drag to resize. it's not a fun experience.

I tested this by two ways; hackintoshing my Surface Pro 2, also Plugging in a MacBook Air to a touch based display. touch worked. It was just downright painful to use

SECOND: Costs of entry. Apple doesn't ship a single computer with touch. To add touch, you have to purchase a 2nd, seperate touch display. After spending a high premium on an apple computer to start with, touch displays tend to cost in the thousands. The Wacom Cintiq mentioned in this thread many times costs nearly $3,000. Imagine spending $3,000 on a computer and then needing another $3k to make it touch enabled. Uptake is going to be slow and niche to specific people who require it. For those prices, you can buy a Surface Studio and get both the computer and the large touch screen at the same time.

The flip side, windows and chromebook land. Touch screens are being included in the price of the unit. Hi Res touch screens. the OS is designed around it. And the uptake on touch devices and 2 in 1s is huge. 2 in 1's is the only computer market that's shown growth in the last 2 years, with standard laptops and even ipads losing sales year over year.

at the end of the day, we don't know how well a Mac would fair with touch. Whether or not users would like it or not, Because Apple has done whatever they could to stop us from using OSx with touch. Either through cost of entry, or lack of design towards it, and as the rest of the industry is adapting and adopting touch, it's only Apple who can look at themselves as to why they still think nobody wants touch, which even Mr Cook doesn't believe himself, since he's been trying to push the iPad Pro as a touch enabled computer replacement for a while now
 
As was mentioned, these computers are lasting longer because of the law of diminishing returns. The 2011 MBP models had the ability to update the RAM, optical drive, and the hard drive. Also, with all the graphics card issues that have reared up (they replaced mine just last year on a mid-2011 MBP), it would be nice to be able to pay for it to get fixed if it gets messed up again. They replaced mine for free, but the cost of replacement is about $300. I don't think you can get a new MacBook for anywhere near that amount.

Regardless of whether it has been their policy in the past, they like to brag about their solar panels these days while at the same time obsoleting 5 to 7 year old computers that still run fine and also making their new computers nearly impossible to repair. As someone said, it is wasteful and far from being a "green" company that cares.

The 'green' nonsense they like to describe themselves is one way of many hypocritical statements that apple/Tim Cook like to throw around. Apple is about as concerned about the environment as our current president. Because of their planned obsolescence model, more apple hardware fills landfill than any other brand. They've also quietly but very aggressively throwing millions at lobbyists and lawyers around the country working to get 'the right to fix it' proposed law squashed. Plus they have the balls to charge you $3 when you buy a new machine as a 'recycle fee'. Innovative companies don't spend fortunes to prevent users from being able to make minor repairs, upgrade ram or god forbid, replace the battery. Because their products stand on their own. Proprietary screws, cemented and soldered on parts that can't be disassembled reflects a lack of creativity so juice every nickel from current user base. Why get the crack in your iPhone screen fixed when a few hundred more gets you a new phone?
 



mac-mini-mbp-2009-to-2011.jpg
Apple plans to add select 2009 to 2011 model Macs to its vintage and obsolete products list on December 31, 2016, according to an internal memo seen by MacRumors.

The following Macs will be classified as either vintage or obsolete in the United States, Canada, Japan, Europe, Latin America, and the Asia-Pacific region:

o MacBook Pro (15-inch, Early 2011)
o MacBook Pro (17-inch, Early 2011)
o Mac mini (Early 2009)
o MacBook (13-inch, Mid 2009)

The aforementioned Macs will no longer be eligible for hardware service or new parts from Apple or Apple Authorized Service Providers, except in Turkey and California, where Apple will continue to provide repairs and documentation for up to two years, or December 31, 2018 in this case, as required by local statutes.

Vintage products are those that have not been manufactured by Apple for between five and seven years. Obsolete products are those that were discontinued by Apple more than seven years ago. Apple and Authorized Service Providers make no distinction between obsolete and vintage products outside of Turkey and California.

Article Link: Apple to Obsolete Select 2009 to 2011 Macs at End of Year

I dont see here my MBP 13" Early 2011!! And it still running like a brand new
 
I dont see here my MBP 13" Early 2011!! And it still running like a brand new

It was discontinued much later than the other 2011 models. Otherwise it would have been on either this list or the previous one. Just look at the approximate time a model was replaced and add 5 years. Assume it might round a little either way. I am surprised the batter lasted this long. In my experience, the batteries swell up and begin to impact the trackpad functionality within a few years.
 
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It was discontinued much later than the other 2011 models. Otherwise it would have been on either this list or the previous one. Just look at the approximate time a model was replaced and add 5 years. Assume it might round a little either way. I am surprised the batter lasted this long. In my experience, the batteries swell up and begin to impact the trackpad functionality within a few years.

:(
 
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