Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.
Tiered could work like this

nbs2 said:
I may be missing something. What is the logic in boosting prices? More iPods are sold, music sales are flat. How does multi-tiered pricing, meaning higher prices on "popular" music, boost online sales? I would expect the higher prices to reduce demand online, boosting it at traditional media. Wouldn't the labels be better served by extending the scheme for one year and seeing whether there is a trickle-down from iPod to music sales?

What would make sense is the reverse of what people are saying. Lower the price on the popular songs, thus lowering your margin, but (hopefully) making up for it in volume. The less popular songs that people don't download that often, well, you need to keep a higher margin on those since they aren't downloaded as much.

<rant>
But wait, that would be business logic, and i forgot the the music industry doesn't work that way. They have a much simpler formula. "Gouge them any which way you can!"

Hey pinheads. Watch online downloads die a slow withering death if you think that raising prices is going to help your bottom line in anything but the short term. Think sustainable business model here. You can't go back to the heyday when you could charge $18 for a CD just cause there's no where else to get your music.

Would be like thinking we could go back to the days of charging pre-dot bomb prices for logos, web sites and graphics. That time is done. Get over it. Adapt.

</rant>
 
cxny said:
... most people like to "cherry pick" the hits which means that the labels get only a couple of bucks out of a typical albums songs. ...

Which explains why singles have disappeared from record stores. Long ago, singles were the main product, in the days of the 45. They sold for around 89 cents when they were discontinued. They were replaced by singles cassettes, which had crappy quality but sold for around $3. The record companies avoided CD singles (3") like the plague, since they now have people thinking albums are the way to buy music.

The story of the record business is the story of brazen greed, ripping off the artists and consumers at every step. It is not a new story, it has always been that way. I was surprised to see a slam of the record companies in Elvis' 1957 movie "Jailhouse Rock".

Boycotting their products won't help. Nothing will help, really. One thing we can do is rub it in their faces at all times. If you know someone in the record industry, sneer at them and insult their business at any opportunity.
 
Impressed but cautious

Apple's had great success with the iPod and I think the market may slow down, but the cycle of people buying and upgrading every few years will continue at least a certain amount.
:cool:

Again, I think that tiered pricing is a stupid and bad idea. It's the perfect way to drive everyone back to P2P. Apple has a pretty reasonable music resource model in the iTMS.

Record companies are just greedy and manipulative. Computers, self-recording and self-publishing, and the internet have changed their industry and they can't come to terms with it. Apple probably saved them a lot of money already with iTMS profits, but they have come up with no solutions or industry evolutions of their own. And now they're still whining? Not our problem, so don't make it ours.
:mad:

iPods rock and even though they may not necessarily continue to fly off the shelves, they've become a fairly solid staple item in today's world of tech gadgets.
:cool:
 
The Sony Walkman standard

How many Sony Walkman (the cassette variety) had been sold since its introduction in the 70s? I think this is a good standard to compare total iPod sale. Off course we must factor in the world population of today v. that from the 70s to the early 90s.

Will the iPod achieves a critical mass in the world? 70 millions? 150m? I hope Apple will continue to set trends through innovation by offering compeling products. Personally, I can definitely see myself buying another iPod when the battery goes belly-up on this one.

Cinch
 
centauratlas said:
The conclusion is that digital downloads have NOT plateaud or anything close too it. The so-called analysis that argues that is as wrong as the ones who thought the VCR would kill TV and movies and...

I don't think there is much analysis going on, they are simply quoting figures.

From TFA:
Digital music sales in the U.S., the world's biggest market, have hardly budged in the past five months. They almost tripled to 6.6 million downloads a week in the year through May, and were at 6.7 million in the week ended Oct. 23, according to Nielsen SoundScan, a unit of Dutch media company VNU NV.

In Jan sales were 2.2 million per week.
In May sales were 6.6 million per week.
In October sales were 6.7 million per week.

How doesn't that suggest a plateau?
 
Cinch said:
How many Sony Walkman (the cassette variety) had been sold since its introduction in the 70s? I think this is a good standard to compare total iPod sale. Off course we must factor in the world population of today v. that from the 70s to the early 90s.

Will the iPod achieves a critical mass in the world? 70 millions? 150m? I hope Apple will continue to set trends through innovation by offering compeling products. Personally, I can definitely see myself buying another iPod when the battery goes belly-up on this one.

Cinch
Sony sold 135 million walkman type devices since their inception. In business school we did an analysis of the mp3 market based on what Sony did with walkmans and the Ipod and others are are following about the same trend just a bit faster mostly due to market acceptance and the fact that all the people who grew up on rock and roll now have money to spend in this technologies. The total market size for these types product is not that large and most of the 135 million that sony sold were yr over yr replacements of older models. Music players is not something that everyone feels they need unlike a phone and now mobile phones. More TVs and Radios are sold then Computers.

Our estimated at the time based on current population in the US was about 20 million people would buy mp3 players which is about where Apple is at right now. My number may be a little low since we did not factor in the WOW factor of an Ipod and the icon symbol of having one.
 
I don't get it. If something (music downloads) doesn't sell well, you.... raise the price? What on earth?

Dissapointing, though, that it looks like itms isn't going to grow much more for a while. Makes it really ironic, with all the rush to get into the digital downloads market before any profits had been made, all the worries that when Sony or Microsoft or even Napster worked hard, apple would lose the market that someday soon WOULD BE the way music is purchased.... it was just taken as a given.

But no worries for mac people, in my book- it never was intended as a money maker, just an ipod booster, and 37 million sounds like enough ipods to me. (though, apple was behind ipod predictions this last quarter, what makes them think they'll be so incredible next year? Sure, the nano is hot, but now if they don't sell the astounding number of 37 million, it will be a dissapointment).

Furthermore, mac sales look helthy, and Dell... is chasing after apple's market!
 
AlmostThere said:
I don't think there is much analysis going on, they are simply quoting figures.

From TFA:
Digital music sales in the U.S., the world's biggest market, have hardly budged in the past five months. They almost tripled to 6.6 million downloads a week in the year through May, and were at 6.7 million in the week ended Oct. 23, according to Nielsen SoundScan, a unit of Dutch media company VNU NV.

In Jan sales were 2.2 million per week.
In May sales were 6.6 million per week.
In October sales were 6.7 million per week.

How doesn't that suggest a plateau?

Because you have to look at the overall trend, just not what is happening right now. They look at growth rates, in order to do that you need all the data from day one and plot the information. Once you have this then you most likely will see a flatting of the curve, it is no longer accelerating up at the same rate.
 
jrv3034 said:
I highly doubt they're talking about lowering prices. One should only assume that they mean "popular songs for $1.99, crappy songs nobody wants for $.99."

Maybe a few obscure songs from some band in Mongolia or Iceland would be offered for $.79... ;)

That seems idiotic. Crappy band CDs in the store are often $7.99. And that's for full 44.1 Aiff audio, no DRM crap.

So what's gonna happen with this DRM. I just updated to tiger and when I launched iTunes it said I had to authorize this computer. Since this is my thirds OS upgrade, it now says I've authorized 3 out of a possible 5 computers! I've only got the one computer. What happens when I upgrrade a again, then get a new computer or something? I think many people may be in the same boat and discover they''ve basically just deactivated thousands of dollars of songs. There's gonna be some pissed folks out there in a year or two.
 
thats a lot of iPods, good for Apple, the more money they have, the more they can put into making newer batter faster sweeter machines:D
 
cubist said:
Boycotting their products won't help. Nothing will help, really. One thing we can do is rub it in their faces at all times. If you know someone in the record industry, sneer at them and insult their business at any opportunity.

Boycotting them may not work, but the pyridine shift soon will. Right now the music industry makes money because they control distibution. Remember Rockefeller, he made billions controlling the distribution of oil and then the US broke up his deal since no one could figure out a new way to distribute oil.

Well this is not true for music now. Soon you will see musicians selling music directly to you. I bet right now as part of the ITMS and music industries deal is Apple has agreed not to do deals directly with artists. The only question I have is the Madonna deal, it appears the deal is with her but I do not know who owns the rights to all her songs
 
Something to keep in mind about how the music industry makes money. They pay a per song royalty to the artist no matter how much the song sells for. In the old model they had cost of distribution, making the CD, trucking it somewhere, paying stores to place ads about the new CD and paying radio stations to play the song. In the ITMS model they pay a royalty to the artist and collect pure profits, they do not have all the other overhead costs for what is sold on ITMS. So the more they can raise the price the more they take home in bonuses.
 
The shift from analog to Digital: Why the record companies won't get richer

Shamelessly stolen from my blog earlier today, but it seemed appropriate :).

When I was a young man, there were things called "records". I remember them - they were flat, black, and when you put them onto the record player with it's little diamond needle, they would play songs like "Macho Duck" or hits from "Sleeping Beauty". (Hey, I said it was when I was young. Like, six. Give me a break.)

Records had been around for a long time - since the turn of the last century, at least. The problem was: they weren't very portable. So some clever folks figured out a way of getting music not from analog grooves in a record, but from analog recordings onto a tape that could record electromagnetic information - and thus the 8 track was born.

So what happened? Everybody rebought their music! Obviously, they couldn't play their old records in their cars, so they started buying 8 track cassettes. I think I once saw an 8 track - they were big, and could only store a few songs. But people were rebuying music they had already bought so they could play it on the new systems.

But then something *better* came along: the cassette tape. Smaller, able to fit up to 90 minutes of music at a time! Wow! Now you could actually carry your music with you in your pocket. That is, if you rebought all of the music you had already paid for so you could have it on cassette tapes.

The problem with cassettes, though, was the sound quality. So when the CD format came out, it was a boon for quality and storage. No more bulky cassettes - CDs were in, and they were smaller and way cooler. It took some time for them to be as portable as the cassette, but hey - they were better! Of course, you had to - say it with me, my little clucks - rebuy all of your old music.

Now we're in the next phase. Instead of buying CDs in the store, now you just do it from home, over the Internet. It didn't start with the iTunes store, but right now that's how most people get the music online. CD sales are still bigger, but I expect that to change over the next 10 years. The audio quality isn't as good, but for most people who aren't audiophiles, who cares? It's good enough, and instead of shilling out $15 per CD for the one song you want, it's just $1 for the one song you care about - or $9.99 for the whole album. It's a deal!

Except - and here's the rub - you don't have to rebuy all of your old music.

The reason why the music industry has grown so large and rich was because of not talent or marketing, but because technology. Every 10 to 15 years, people were rebuying their music all over again. So a recording studio could stand to make money 4 times off of the same recording - the first time probably paid the bills, the rest was just gravy.

The recording industry is going nuts, saying that they aren't making enough money off of music sales. The problem is, they have it wrong. They're probably selling the same amount of music as before - but people aren't rebuying what they already have. In my case, I have a library of songs collected over the years, as do most people who listened to music over the last 20 years.

To move my song to digital, it's "insert CD, push a button to copy into my computer, plug in iPod (or your preferred MP3 music player". Done. Simple. Whole companies now exist to drive to your house and help you rip your music to MP3 format for you. (Seriously.) And how much money does the music industry get?

Nada.

I expect the next 20 years are going to be hard on the recording industry. Not because of piracy - though that will still exist - but because they aren't getting the same boom as people rebuy old music. Of course, there is a simple solution:

Put more music available for download.

I know what you're thinking. "But John - didn't you just say that people aren't rebuying their old music?"

That's right - I am. But not everybody owns the music they want. Take my case. I was sitting at home when My Lovely Wife (MLW) turned the channel to VH1's "I Love the 80's 3D". Some song came on - I think it was "Kiss Me Deadly", and then Ozzie Ozbourne's "If I Close My Eyes Forever". I remember those songs.

5 minutes later I was $1.98 poorer after I hopped on the iTunes music store. Why? I didn't already have those songs in my library!

There are tons of music rotting in record company warehouses just waiting to be unearthed again. Jazz recordings, old rap, folk songs, comedy skits, radio dramas - things that lie forgotten. Why should they? Put it out online, for $0.99 apiece. and people will buy it. Not everything will sell, of course, but based on the "long tail theory" of economics, everything will sell at least once, making it worth the effort.

Even that won't stave off the record industry shrinkage to come - but it will at least soften the blow, and give them a chance to decide what to do. Odds are, the world is going to become a lot more fragmented for a time as independent music publishers - now free from having to push their CDs into every music store in the country, when they can just sell it online and bypass all of the middle men between them - start to rise, and the market will become more even until the next round of consolidations happen.

Either way, the record industry is just going to have to realize that the days of massive profits every 10-15 years are over. Things are moving to digital, and they aren't going back.
 
Photorun said:
Another thought on this (just an thought, nothing concrete) is at one point is there market saturation for the iPod... that is, when people who have the money or the where-withal to buy one sales will slow down significantly. This same principle has effected computer sales, once the people who would have a computer bought one, aside from the upgrade cycle or the "oooh, shiny" buyers, at some point iPod sales should fall off. Relevant to this it seems many of my acquantances from college students on up to even some peeps in their late 40s have an iPod, at what point is there that people own them will slow the sales.

when did computer sales ever "fall off"? Last I checked, they were still growing at 15%+/year. Unless by "fall off" you mean slower growth.
 
1. These analysts predicting 10 million+ iPod sales this quarter may be setting Apple up for a fall if it doesn't meet these expectations. I am worried about the iPod nano scratch issues and the screen damage issues hurting sales. I think Apple should have continued to offer the iPod mini. More choice is better and it was still selling.

2. iPod sales could continue well past the 20 million people and 135 million unts that the M.B.A. said is the number that his group expected would purchase the product. This could happen IF Apple continues to add value and features to the product. Add satellite radio and a voice recording feature to the iPod (either or both) and that will open up new markets.

Also, there may be a larger market of potential consumers today than in the 1970s-1980s: add in the upper and middle classes of China and India, and the former Eastern Bloc, for example.

3. It just seems that downloading music is going to be a major component of sales- not the ONLY way music is sold, but maybe accounting for over 50% of sales. Because a) why would you want to drive to a record store when you could get a bigger selection on your computer? b) even in a city, iTunes is going to have a bigger selection than any 3 record stores.
Somebody just wrote an article and book called "The Long Tail" about part b.

4. Pricing: Everything Steve is saying is correct, although I wish he would be more diplomatic in how he says it! Often if you criticize people as harshly as he has, they dig in their heels and refuse to change.
 
Hiroshige said:
2. iPod sales could continue well past the 20 million people and 135 million unts that the M.B.A. said is the number that his group expected would purchase the product. This could happen IF Apple continues to add value and features to the product. Add satellite radio and a voice recording feature to the iPod (either or both) and that will open up new markets.

Also, there may be a larger market of potential consumers today than in the 1970s-1980s: add in the upper and middle classes of China and India, and the former Eastern Bloc, for example.
The 135 million is total over the life of the walkman history. Those are total sales from Sony themselves so it is world wide. The numbers I quoted for mp3s was US since US data is easier to come by since they are many people collecting that data.

You could expect Apple to sell as many iPods maybe a little more over its history as well, Sony walkman is 25 yr history, ipod maybe only a 10 or 15 yr history due to rapid change in technology.
 
Maestro64 said:
Because you have to look at the overall trend, just not what is happening right now. They look at growth rates, in order to do that you need all the data from day one and plot the information.
10 months for an industry that is barely 3 years old is not really "right now", is it?
Once you have this then you most likely will see a flatting of the curve, it is no longer accelerating up at the same rate.
Er, so you agree that there is a plateau ... or not? I was curious how the previous contributor felt that there was NOT a plateau and different conclusions should be drawn, given the sales figures at 5 month intervals show ~2.2 -> 6.6 -> 6.7, giving growth rates of ~3 and ~0.

Now, the figures are only for download sales in the US, which might be criticised but subscription services in general don't seem to make up a large part of the market and I wonder if there is good reason to suggest that European or Antipodean markets should differ in the trends. Furthermore, while iPod sales are increasing, the article points out that fewer songs are being sold on a per iPod basis, suggesting that lock-in is not a strategy (or effective one, anyway) of Apple, at around $15 per player.
 
bretm said:
So what's gonna happen with this DRM. I just updated to tiger and when I launched iTunes it said I had to authorize this computer. Since this is my thirds OS upgrade, it now says I've authorized 3 out of a possible 5 computers! I've only got the one computer. What happens when I upgrrade a again, then get a new computer or something? I think many people may be in the same boat and discover they''ve basically just deactivated thousands of dollars of songs. There's gonna be some pissed folks out there in a year or two.
Well, first of all you're supposed to de-authorize first. :p If you are just doing a simple upgrade to the same machine, it shouldn't have counted as a new one. If you did (and even if you didn't, like if you did a full re-install), and it thinks you have 3 computers, you can just e-mail Apple and they'll reset it for you. They give you some warning about making sure you check first, and de-authorize, and don't steal music, and whatever... but they'll do it. You re-activate your Mac and boom, back to 1 authorized computer. Not really that hard, it's right there on the support page. ;)
 
AlmostThere said:
10 months for an industry that is barely 3 years old is not really "right now", is it?

Er, so you agree that there is a plateau ... or not? I was curious how the previous contributor felt that there was NOT a plateau and different conclusions should be drawn, given the sales figures at 5 month intervals show ~2.2 -> 6.6 -> 6.7, giving growth rates of ~3 and ~0.

Now, the figures are only for download sales in the US, which might be criticised but subscription services in general don't seem to make up a large part of the market and I wonder if there is good reason to suggest that European or Antipodean markets should differ in the trends. Furthermore, while iPod sales are increasing, the article points out that fewer songs are being sold on a per iPod basis, suggesting that lock-in is not a strategy (or effective one, anyway) of Apple, at around $15 per player.

I can not comment on whether a plateau is occuring or not without seeing the plotted data and what information they are including. For ITMS it is easy to know how many songs are being downloaded, however with subscriptions it really had to know how many songs are being access.
 
nbs2 said:
I may be missing something. What is the logic in boosting prices? More iPods are sold, music sales are flat. How does multi-tiered pricing, meaning higher prices on "popular" music, boost online sales? I would expect the higher prices to reduce demand online, boosting it at traditional media. Wouldn't the labels be better served by extending the scheme for one year and seeing whether there is a trickle-down from iPod to music sales?

I did go to wal mart and compare the 14.99 for a CD vs. the 9.99 itunes. If price had been the same, I would have opted for physical media. Wouldn't this result in lower income for the labels? I'm sure that I could find a good post in the myriad of threads here that would present a rational economic argument. But, that would take a long time. Any economists want to save me the time and explain it here?

And a final question. If Apple doesn't budge, and the labels don't budge, does that mean the iTMS becomes a video store. And do the labels really think they could win a PR battle?


They are trying to increase income... not sales.

The thought is that they can increase the price without significantly lowering sales.

100 songs sold at 99 cents = $100
90 songs sold at $1.25 = $112.50

extend that out to big volume and you are talking big money.

The trick is to find the best price point.
 
Hertog said:
Yes, that will probably increase sales, making songs more expensive..

Yet another industry that just "doesn't get it".

If all markets were structured like the music biz, this would be a dismal world.
 
think this thru

savar said:
Yet another industry that just "doesn't get it".

If all markets were structured like the music biz, this would be a dismal world.

Yeah... they don't get it like Apple does not get it with the price they have for the iPod. :eek:

Apple could sell way more if they just dropped the price (and lowered their profit margin).

But they dont... why? Because they make more money at the higher price point.

99 cents may not be the most profitable price point for online music. They may be correct.
 
ioinc said:
They are trying to increase income... not sales.

The thought is that they can increase the price without significantly lowering sales.

100 songs sold at 99 cents = $100
90 songs sold at $1.25 = $112.50

extend that out to big volume and you are talking big money.

The trick is to find the best price point.

You are exactly right here, ideally they want to find the point of max profits, messing with the prices to see at what price point people will stop buying.

This works well consumable product, but the electronic industry has not been very successful with this pricing method. The main reason is because we all can shop around and price compare and there is always someone willing to undercut the next guy and you can have it shipped to you.

It this much harder to do with consumables, you are not going to cross the country to by gas at the cheapest station in the country or go to cheapest grocery store.

I think the music industry will have the same issue since every subscription service is will to under cut the next. And as we all know we can get our music free if we want.
 
Next Year Maybe

manu chao said:
Sure, everbody who bought an iPod in 2001-2004 will upgrade it exactly this year. This would generate sales of 18 m iPods this year.
Nope. Still happy with 2G 20GB native 6 pin FW model. Still holding out for the 3-4" widescreen video iPod with 80GB HD coming next year. :p
 
2A Batterie said:
Eventually Apple's wild ride on top is going to end unless they change some tactics. Tethering consumers to the iPod and iTunes and the iTMS can only last for so long. Understandably, Apple wants to keep everything exclusive to drive up profits, and it has worked very well so far because other companies can't come up with product that comes close to the iPod or iTMS. I just fear that eventually Apple is going to shoot itself in the foot by not budging on such issues as pricing nd compatibility. I also think that record companies are getting a bit fed up with Apple's stubborn attitude... at least that is the vibe I am getting from music trade magazines. I'm not trying to flame Apple, as I love their products, I just hope they don't end up screwing themselves.
I think the reason Apple is so restrictive is that they don't want to sell you a music player, they want to sell you a whole system. If they provide the computer, the OS, the player, the music store and the jukebox, they control every piece of the experience from beginning to end. This has so far worked pretty ok.

As for song pricing, I can see people paying $1.50, but not $2. I would also say that I've bought about $60 worth of music that I never would've if I hadn't found it on the music store. So the music industry got about $40 from me that it never would've seen otherwise. But hey, if they wanna shoot themselves in the foot...
 
Register on MacRumors! This sidebar will go away, and you'll see fewer ads.