Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.
Then you must be livid about the "space ship campus" plans for Cupertino.

Not just a beauty pageant, but a monument to a dead CEO's ego.

Actually, aside from the expensive curved glass, that sounds to me like a solid investment. A centralized campus planned from the bottom up, large enough to house their current operations (which in contrast are currently scattered in a makeshift manner between many buildings as Apple has had to expand) should help greatly with operational efficiency of the business. I think it would promote a simpler, tighter organization from the management perspective, and more integrated and efficient working company.

Solar panels and fuel cells do none of that.

According to my understanding, the land was purchased for a relative bargain from HP. The expensive curved glass seems like an unneeded gross expenditure, especially given the large diameter of the building, and I'm not sure how much efficiency is gained from burying the parking lot underneath the property. But the concept overall seems right on.

This is as opposed to the installing a solar farm and fuel cell system on a data center in North Carolina, which I would guess, if anything only complicates issues from the management perspective, while producing (my guess is) little of anything of value to the company.
 
Actually, aside from the expensive curved glass, that sounds to me like a solid investment. A centralized campus planned from the bottom up, large enough to house their current operations.

No, it's a gross waste of land that will be too small even before it opens. (https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/1225811/)

The SuperEgo is dead. Kill the spaceship campus.

Tim - cancel all the plans and start fresh with a greener design that accomodates current and potential growth. Instead of a sprawling low-rise doughnut and orchards, build a campus with a number of higher-rise buildings - some built now, some in the future as needed.

And, in addition to building a private Apple fossil fuel generating plant on site - put some solar panels on the buildings. Microsoft and Google have done that on nearby offices - get with the times.
 
Last edited:
No, it's a gross waste of land that will be too small even before it opens. (https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/1225811/)

The SuperEgo is dead. Kill the spaceship campus.

Tim - cancel all the plans and start fresh with a greener design that accomodates current and potential growth. Instead of a sprawling low-rise doughnut and orchards, build a campus with a number of higher-rise buildings - some built now, some in the future as needed.

And, in addition to building a private Apple fossil fuel generating plant on site - put some solar panels on the buildings. Microsoft and Google have done that on nearby offices - get with the times.

1) There is plenty of land where it's at for what they are building. The building only takes up a minority of the space available.
2) If it's too small, make it bigger.
3) Solar panels would be a waste of money. It's not like it's in Arizona.

Also, the campus would be large enough if they'd fire all their hangers-on employees who are there for environmental feel-good projects, and other waste.

What do you mean it takes up too much space?

http://urbanpeek.com/wp-content/gallery/apple-campus-2/apple-campus-2-9.jpg

I guess you're right though -- they could reduce their tax bill by selling some of that land.
 
Last edited:
1) There is plenty of land where it's at for what they are building. The building only takes up a minority of the space available.

But most of the land will be planted with fruit trees, and not available for expansion.


2) If it's too small, make it bigger.

Like I said, kill the spaceship and make a new design.


3) Solar panels would be a waste of money. It's not like it's in Arizona.

Are you kidding? A solar panel in Silicon Valley generates 92% of the power that it would generate in Flagstaff Arizona.

Google gets 30% of its power for the main site from solar panels. Microsoft also has a big solar installation at the nearby SVC. Even the local transit company has a huge solar installation.

I put an 8.5 kW solar array on my home (8 km from Apple) and my cost for electricity was $0.00 for the past year (down from about $400/month).


Also, the campus would be large enough if they'd fire all their hangers-on employees who are there for environmental feel-good projects, and other waste.

No comment.


What do you mean it takes up too much space?

Adobe has 1200 employees in a 7.5 acre site at its headquarters. Apple will put 3000 employees at a 175 acre site. Do the math.

Form over function strikes again.
 
But most of the land will be planted with fruit trees, and not available for expansion.
Until they mow the trees down (unless the city / town / whatever of Cupertino prevents them from doing so -- I wouldn't put it past them).

Are you kidding? A solar panel in Silicon Valley generates 92% of the power that it would generate in Flagstaff Arizona.
No kidding. That's impressive. Is it cheaper than firing up your own coal / natural gas yet?

I thought SF area was cloudy / rainy, but I guess that makes sense from what I've seen of the Stanford campus. My bad.
Google gets 30% of its power for the main site from solar panels. Microsoft also has a big solar installatiiateon at the nearby SVC. Even the local transit company has a huge solar installation.
I'm sure kindergardeners everywhere are mighty impressed.
Adobe has 1200 employees in a 7.5 acre site at its headquarters. Apple will put 3000 employees at a 175 acre site. Do the math.

Form over function strikes again.
So? Whether or not this is wasteful depends on whether the value of the land increases in value over time, net minus property taxes. If it does, it'll probably get a better return than the $100 billion in cash they are sitting on. Not saying it will (particularly because of taxes). Just that, it would be the way to make that calculation. It might be a waste. It might not be. I don't really know.

But I'm a lot more certain that the solar panels at the North Carolina data center will probably end up being a boondoggle.
 
Last edited:
I put an 8.5 kW solar array on my home (8 km from Apple) and my cost for electricity was $0.00 for the past year (down from about $400/month).

If you're comparing the ridiculous rates you are paying for electricity at retail in California, this would seem like a worthwhile bargain.

But installing natural gas generators on site produces electricity substantially below retail grid rate, particularly now that natural gas prices have plummeted over the last 5 years due to drilling innovations. Expanded natural gas production / reserves in the U.S. are currently predicted to last many, many years beyond the useful life of a solar panel.

So I don't see how any of that relates to whether or not it's worthwhile to install solar panels on any one of Apple's buildings.

Here is an article talking about recent comparisons to retail electricity rates (not applicable, but interesting):

http://www.npr.org/2012/01/05/144526652/solar-panels-compete-with-cheap-natural-gas

Natural gas prices declining:

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-...-as-shale-brings-natural-gas-glut-energy.html

"The cost, including construction, to produce one megawatt hour of gas-fueled electricity was $62.37 an hour in the third quarter of 2011, which was less expensive than coal, wind and solar generators, according to data compiled by Bloomberg." <-- = 6.2 cents per kilowatt hour

... and afterwards, you might have grid independence that can actually be relied upon (unlike solar).
 
Last edited:
Adobe has 1200 employees in a 7.5 acre site at its headquarters. Apple will put 3000 employees at a 175 acre site. Do the math.
Form over function strikes again.

Your link says 13,000 employees at the new Apple campus.

Adobe says 2,100 at the San Jose campus.
 
The US is, unfortunately, a developing country when it comes to renewable energy.

Munch, Germany, is going to provide 100% of its energy out of renewable sources by 2025.

And this is Germany, the land of clouds and rain.

Here in California, the sun is boiling down so hot that solar panel would be very efficient.

It's time to take steps into that direction. More and more cars will go electric, and we need renewable energy in the grid that fuels those cars' batteries.

Apple, with its huge stack of cash and big influence, would be a logical leader in that better direction.
 
The US is, unfortunately, a developing country when it comes to renewable energy.

Munch, Germany, is going to provide 100% of its energy out of renewable sources by 2025.

And this is Germany, the land of clouds and rain.

Here in California, the sun is boiling down so hot that solar panel would be very efficient.

It's time to take steps into that direction. More and more cars will go electric, and we need renewable energy in the grid that fuels those cars' batteries.

Apple, with its huge stack of cash and big influence, would be a logical leader in that better direction.

Why on Earth should Apple do solar when natural gas is much cheaper, and we now have it in surplus?

Why would it be regarded as influential for Apple to make economically bad decisions?

Read about Germany's not-so-wonderful experience with photovoltaics.

http://www.nationalpost.com/opinion/Germany+solar+experiment+collapses/6189117/story.html
 
Last edited:
Why on Earth should Apple do solar when natural gas is much cheaper, and we now have it in surplus?

Because natural gas is not a sustainable source of energy, there will one day be none left. Solar power is sustainable and will be available far, far longer than natural gas could ever hope to be. Plus have you not heard of the adverse effects fracking has on water sources and the environment in general?
 
Because natural gas is not a sustainable source of energy, there will one day be none left. Solar power is sustainable and will be available far, far longer than natural gas could ever hope to be. Plus have you not heard of the adverse effects fracking has on water sources and the environment in general?

Fracking? There are no significant negative consequences for the environment.

Due to improved technologies, natural gas reserves in the US are now large enough to provide ample supply for many decades if not 100 years -- and this presumes that extraction methods don't improve even more in the future. These reserves will continue producing far beyond the serviceable lifespan of any of the solar panels now in production. Coal reserves are even larger.

Until solar efficiencies increase enough, and prices come down enough to become cheaper than natural gas without subsidies, there is no reason for a responsible company to install them.
 
Fracking? There are no significant negative consequences for the environment.

Sure, if you don't mind the earthquakes (got a lot of experience here with that seeing as I live 12 miles from a well that just caused over a half dozen minor earthquakes in the past year including the largest one in this area in recorded history (i.e. 3.8). These are minor quakes compared to out west, but they still can crack foundations and cause other damage near the well site (latest well site is near a downtown area and the whole building I work in shook as I was all of 2 miles from the site which was positively identified to be the epicenter of the earthquake right at the EXACT well position (and the other 5 were within a 1 mile radius and this is NOT earthquake country in the Mid-West here and the quakes started right after the wells were put into use). You might want to call that a coincidence, but that's like saying my neighbor's house caught fire for completely different reasons than the fact mine was on fire that same night and the wind was blowing in that direction. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

The latest study data (the wells have finally been shut down for now and no quakes since) have a theory that the brine disposal water is acting like a major lubricant on the existing plate, thereby causing quakes to occur that would not have under normal circumstances for hundreds or even thousands of years. Hey, maybe they could try putting these things out by the San Andreas fault line near Los Angeles or San Francisco. We might as well get the "big one" out of the way now instead of just waiting for it.

There's also the matter of possible ground water contamination from disposing of the toxic waste water underground. They claim the water is below well level and typically sealed within or under a non-permeable layer, but rocks get cracks and liquids have this odd way of finding their way to the surface sooner or later. Just look into plutonium well contamination in Nevada. They thought injecting it into the underground layers wouldn't hurt since it does not suspend in water. However, it does attach itself to minerals that can suspend in the water and managed to find it's way out of the area in a relatively short amount of time. Gotta love government coverups.

Due to improved technologies, natural gas reserves in the US are now large enough to provide ample supply for many decades if not 100 years -- and this presumes that extraction methods don't improve even more in the future. These reserves will continue producing far beyond the serviceable lifespan of any of the solar panels now in production. Coal reserves are even larger.

You act like 100 years is this HUGE span of time or something. It's a drop in the bucket. Your grandkids will likely experience a complete loss of fossil fuels. But who cares about them? You'll be dead so it doesn't matter, right? That is the prevailing EXCUSE used to foster the current profits and keep things following the status quo. We don't need fusion research! Those nuclear waste producing reactors from 50 years ago are good enough! What we need is an oil pipeline from Canada to Mexico!

I'll give you that switching cars over to natural gas would be a good SHORT TERM solution to Mid-East oil, but it would also raise home heating prices considerably and then there's always that pesky "we don't have the infrastructure to support it" EXCUSE that's always made (i.e. gas stations don't have natural gas pumps in most areas and they don't like chicken/egg situations and so we go NOWHERE).

Meanwhile, I'm forced to use ethanol laced gas that is more corrosive on my engine, decreases my gas mileage (by as much as 2-3mpg) and raises the price of corn to the point where I rarely by corn chips anymore (2x what they used to be several years ago) and have to buy generic corn in a can because it's also 2x what it used to be. But they don't measure that on the inflation index, so it doesn't exist. :rolleyes:

It also takes 1.5 gallons of oil to make 2 gallons of ethanol and combined with the 2-3mpg decrease in gas mileage and increased price of corn, exactly WHERE are the savings and advantages supposed to be for the consumer? I see that it's a boon for corn growers....

Until solar efficiencies increase enough, and prices come down enough to become cheaper than natural gas without subsidies, there is no reason for a responsible company to install them.

I'd have to disagree with your choice of word there, "responsible". Like I said, you don't seem to care about handing a dead future to your grandchildren, but I find nothing responsible about that. You also have your chicken/egg scenario once again where the prices won't come down because they are not produced en masse and they won't be produced en masse because the prices are high. So that creates the situation where no one will do anything about it until we run out of fossil fuels. Unfortunately, it might be too late to avert a major crisis at that point. It takes TIME to build and replace infrastructure and if you don't start ahead of time, you end up screwed in the long run. By screwed, I mean a depression that will make this recession we recently had look like a day at the park. Few on here remember the lines for the gas pumps in the 1970s. But those that don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it.
 
You might want to call that a coincidence,
It is.
The latest study data (the wells have finally been shut down for now and no quakes since) have a theory... There's also the matter of possible ... They claim ...
Trust me, you'll live.
You act like 100 years is this HUGE span of time or something... Your grandkids will likely experience a complete loss of fossil fuel...
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/02/23/peak_oil_is_dead_citigroup/

Presuming they really need it and nobody find buttloads more of it, or something equivalent over the next 100 years (which they will).

Why do people continually pretend that proven reserves = all reserves? That's exactly what led everyone to keep parroting that peak oil would come in ten years.. thirty years ago.

It's not just the alternative energy folks who are capable of being innovative. It's the drillers too...

And even in the worst case scenario, there's much much more coal, and solar is slowly becoming more and more efficient with each passing decade.

It will someday become cheaper to produce electricity with solar than it is with natural gas or coal. However, that time is not now. That'll be 20, 50 or 100 years from now.

That's what our grandchildren will be doing, no doubt.
I'll give you that switching cars over to natural gas would be a good SHORT TERM solution to Mid-East oil, but it would also raise home heating prices considerably...
We should switch them over to natural gas AND provide permits to allow companies to build the Keystone XL ASAP. And keep drilling to find more of the stuff. ASAP. It will take several decades to convert the transportation fleet over to natural gas. So keep drilling for the stuff.
It also takes 1.5 gallons of oil to make 2 gallons of ethanol and combined with the 2-3mpg decrease in gas mileage and increased price of corn, exactly WHERE are the savings and advantages supposed to be for the consumer?
Don't ask me. That's the work of nutso environmentalists who had their panties all up in a bundle over MTBE. They used to like wind too, until they decided they didn't like it anymore. Environmentalists are like irritating mother-in-laws. They think everything is a good idea, until you actually do it and it gives them another chance to complain about something.

Cellulosic ethanol has more potential to make an impact -- but there again until that is ready for prime time, there is the early adoption problem you are finding yourselves unnecessarily struggling with every time (trying to convert to ethanol before cellulosic ethanol ever became practical). Another example would be delaying the construction of pipelines while talking about the benefits of algae now, in 2012, probably decades before algae develops into anything practical (if it ever does).
Like I said, you don't seem to care about handing a dead future to your grandchildren, but I find nothing responsible about that.
The dead future comes from blowing national and corporate finances on boondoggle projects for no good reason.
 
Last edited:
Why do people continually pretend that proven reserves = all reserves?
Why do people continually pretend that we have all the fossil fuels we want and that they won't run out?

And even in the worst case scenario, there's much much more coal, and solar is slowly becoming more and more efficient with each passing decade.
It will someday become cheaper to produce electricity with solar than it is with natural gas or coal. However, that time is not now. That'll be 20, 50 or 100 years from now.
Even if it's 100 years from now, why bother investing in a shot-term fix?

Wibbling about the efficiency of solar now is a strawman diversion.
We can produce all the energy we need from solar now, using the technologies we have available to us now, and without the risks we have from fracking now.

That's what our grandchildren will be doing, no doubt.
Great attitude. I hope someone is able to put you on life support for a century or so so your grand children can shout at you.

We should switch them over to natural gas AND provide permits to allow companies to build the Keystone XL ASAP. And keep drilling to find more of the stuff. ASAP. It will take several decades to convert the transportation fleet over to natural gas. So keep drilling for the stuff.
So by your own admission, by the time the transportation fleet is converted over to natural gas, it'll be time to switch to something else.


The dead future comes from blowing national and corporate finances on boondoggle projects for no good reason.
Indeed, so stop using fossil fuels, now.
 
Even if it's 100 years from now, why bother investing in a shot-term fix?
For the same reason it makes no sense to spend $10,000 on a 12-core computer to put on your desk this year, when a quad core processor will suffice, and the same 12-core processor computer will cost ten times less 5 years from now.

Because it's more efficient and less expensive to use fossil fuels now -- and hold off on converting to alternative energy until later when it's actually competitive.

Broadly applying technology too far ahead of the curve is wasteful. For the research purposes such things are necessary, but for everyday use it's not, it's wasteful.

No doubt Al Gore will proclaim he was right all along once alternative energy sources do become competitive and come to the fore (which they will). Unfortunately, he's wrong, because everybody knows this, they just disagree on when this should happen. Appropriate timing of investment is crucial.
Wibbling about the efficiency of solar now is a strawman diversion.
We can produce all the energy we need from solar now, using the technologies we have available to us now, and without the risks we have from fracking now.
In theory we could do a lot of stupid things before the time is right to do them.

There are no significant risks from fracking.
 
Because it's more efficient and less expensive to use fossil fuels now -- and hold off on converting to alternative energy until later when it's actually competitive.
In what sense is gas "more efficient"?

Broadly applying technology too far ahead of the curve is wasteful. For the research purposes such things are necessary, but for everyday use it's not, it's wasteful.
You keep using that word. I don't think it means what you think it means.

Using solar today is not wasteful. The sun is going to shine regardless.
If anything, by a logic equivalent to yours, not using it is wasteful. (No doubt you'd then argue that not to use up all the other available resources would be wasteful too... sigh)

No doubt Al Gore will proclaim he was right all along once alternative energy sources do become competitive and come to the fore (which they will). Unfortunately, he's wrong, because everybody knows this, they just disagree on when this should happen. Appropriate timing of investment is crucial.
Indeed, which is why we should be investing in solar and other renewables now.

There are no significant risks from fracking.
If you keep saying it, it must be true.

Or perhaps you're hiding behind the rather pointless semantic distinction between fracking per se and the necessary drilling...

http://scienceprogressaction.org/intersection/2011/11/fracking-dangers-real-and-overblown/
 
Last edited:
Broadly applying technology too far ahead of the curve is wasteful. For the research purposes such things are necessary, but for everyday use it's not, it's wasteful.

Does technology just magically arise fully developed out of nowhere? Of course not. Airplanes made no sense at all during WWI, but had they not been used then, nobody would have been aware of their potential. If there's not some commercial application to provide a testing ground, then it's impossible to get a good measure of its usefulness.

You're also assuming that Apple is guaranteed an uninterruptible power supply. Anyone building a data center would not be so naive to think that the grid is perfectly reliable and the less they have to rely on it, the better off they will be.

Data centers aren't proving grounds for economic theory. That's why your statements are so laughable.
 
Does technology just magically arise fully developed out of nowhere? Of course not.
There is a difference between research combined with judicious use where a technology fits a specific need, and broad-scale implementation of an immature technology before it makes any sense.

And this is not a chicken-and-egg situation. Even with all the massive subsidies thrown its way, solar is just not competitive at this point in time. Just because Jobs oversaw a buildup of a massive fortune over his tenure is no reason to act like the money is burning a hole in your pocket and waste it.
You're also assuming that Apple is guaranteed an uninterruptible power supply. Anyone building a data center would not be so naive to think that the grid is perfectly reliable and the less they have to rely on it, the better off they will be.
Solar and wind are without a doubt the least reliable of energy sources if you need an uninterruptible supply. What if the grid goes down at night? It's useless. All this means, is that you need to spend even more money, to build a backup for your backup power source.

And I'm not rejecting the use of natural gas fuel cells off the bat, I'm just questioning the economic competitiveness of current generation on-site fuel cell generators in comparison to conventional alternatives for routine or backup power, especially in a situation such as a data center where I expect there is not much use for the waste heat that the fuel cells generate.
 
Last edited:
There is a difference between research combined with judicious use where a technology fits a specific need, and broad-scale implementation of an immature technology before it makes any sense.
As stated, of course. But you're simply attempting a rather poor rhetorical trick.
Suppose we applied your "logic" to the automobile industry. We still wouldn't be driving cars, they'd be an immature technology...
Solar energy production systems may be continuing to improve, but they work more than well enough.

And this is not a chicken-and-egg situation. Even with all the massive subsidies thrown its way, solar is just not competitive at this point in time. Just because Jobs oversaw a buildup of a massive fortune over his tenure is no reason to act like the money is burning a hole in your pocket and waste it.
Please give figures to back up this assertion.
Solar panels are typically sold on the basis of a payback period, which varies between about 5 and 15 years.
The reason solar is a difficult proposition for many at the moment is because they can't afford the up-front costs. If they can make a long-term investment, then eventually they start reaping dividends. I'd expect any new building being erected today to have a lifetime of several to many decades. Significantly more than the payback period of the panels installed on it.

At current rates, I expect the solar panels on my house to pay for themselves within about 6 years. Thereafter, I'm making money.

Solar and wind are without a doubt the least reliable of energy sources if you need an uninterruptible supply.
If you want a long-term energy source, then any fossil fuel-based system is the least reliable, since it's guaranteed to run out of fuel.
On a local basis, solar and wind are in and of themselves not reliable. Taken as a national resource, combined with appropriate storage facilities, they can provide all the electricity we need.
 
But you're simply attempting a rather poor rhetorical trick. Suppose we applied your "logic" to the automobile industry. We still wouldn't be driving cars, they'd be an immature technology...
If there were such things as comfortable horses that ate baby farts and carried people at 60 mph, yes, cars would still be an immature technology.
At current rates, I expect the solar panels on my house to pay for themselves within about 6 years. Thereafter, I'm making money.
Of course, you're including the financing cost of those panels in that calculation, right? Set aside that interest rates are artificially low for the time being, that's appropriately priced in but wont apply to those who build later.

Beyond that, I'm not talking about comparing to the ridiculous retail electricity rates you would pay in a ridiculous state like California, and dealing with the government-created intentional shortages they deal with. Retail rates in a state like that can be anywhere from 12 to 60 cents per kWh, depending on what government-manufactured crisis happens to be in play at the given moment.

Certain individuals having to deal with that crapola, and who may be receiving ill-guided subsidies to boot, may in fact find that it is cost effective to install solar panels on their home at this time. People living elsewhere probably won't, which is good for them.

But a large company installing their own natural gas generators shouldn't be paying more than 7 cents per kilowatt hour after it's all said and done. That's the yardstick to go by.

It has little to do with what you are doing on your house, in other words.
If you want a long-term energy source, then any fossil fuel-based system is the least reliable, since it's guaranteed to run out of fuel.
Don't be ridiculous. Fossil fuels will be in play for a lot longer than that data center they are building in North Carolina. If panels become cost effective later, then build them later.

You're nuts. Storage facilities for electricity are even further out than the panels. That's a ways off. Smart grid helps a bit and is more practical, but won't resolve the major issues.

Not to go on a tangent, but National Geographic should do an article about how much electricity we could make by damming up the Sierra Nevada and the Rockies.
 
Last edited:
That Steve Jobs really knew how to run a business.

1) Pour a lot of money into research.
2) Make really cutting edge stuff that is potentially disruptive but practically speaking, ahead of its time.
3) Keep this stuff highly secret.
4) Keep making improvements to it in secret like it's a real product (when it isn't yet).
5) Wait until manufacturing capabilities develop to the point where the object can be manufactured in a practical, affordable manner. Push things along if you can with your own secret initiatives.
6) Don't waste time and effort bringing those products that are too far ahead of their time to market just to satisfy a select few fanboys and blow your wad on temporary bragging rights.
7) Only when the time is right, unleash your product on the world.

Being before your time is never good if you are bringing a product to market before it can succeed in prime time.

I don't know for certain, but I can speculate that Jobs may have learned something about this when he first tried to bring the Lisa to production and when he may have been struggling to make his mark as a manager. He may have experienced it a second time when he left Apple and was struggling to make his mark on his own, with the NeXT cube, which was probably also a bit too far ahead of its time.

Solar panels on a data center at this point doesn't sound like prime time to me, unless Apple has numbers they aren't disclosing. Sounds more like bragging rights, but I could be wrong.
 
Last edited:
Don't forget CO2

Indeed, so stop using fossil fuels, now.

That's a bit extreme, but we need to do whatever is possible to reduce the burning of carbon fuels.

It's not simply price per kWh - in the past year my solar panels have offset about 12 tons of carbon - about 300 trees.
 
Register on MacRumors! This sidebar will go away, and you'll see fewer ads.