JimmyBanks6
macrumors 6502
Anybody get a reply from Apple?
Apple TV app and DRM’d 4K HDR streaming playback support in macOS 10.15 Catalina
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The Phazer
macrumors 68040
It's not live yet as far as I can see. Everything plays back in HD fine though.
PastaPrimav
Suspended
Could not agree more. If you use DRM, you should not be allowed to call it "buying" or any other similar term. You should be forced to emphasize the reality of what it is.
DRM is nothing but a disgraceful ploy to dupe people into thinking they are buying something, while maintaining the ability to revoke the purchase at any time. It is a scam to make more money off of content instead of just raising prices to an acceptable level.
Somian
macrumors 6502
Well... The problem is that companies say that you're not really "buying" anything. You're merely "licensing" it in some cases you acquire an indefinite license that can, however, be revoked at any time. If I buy a game on Steam, for example, you technically "subscribe" to it, according to their "subscriber agreement". If you but a John Deere Tractor, you only license the software on it and whenever they choose they can charge as much as they want to service it whenever they want because you legally can't do anything yourself because that would be reverse engineering.
Same with movies. Want to watch a 4k movie with a custom subtitle track in VLC player in a particular obscure language that your deaf grandma understands and that isn't part of the subtitles offered by your streaming provider? Well you legally can't because in order to do that you first need to remove the DRM.
Reverse engineering should be perfectly legal. If I buy a chair, I can take measurements if I want to add a pillow to it. Copyright law already prevents me from creating an exact copy of the chair and selling it.
But digital stuf seems to be exempt. Copyright lobbyists lie to us, making us believe that software is some kind of arcane thing that needs some special treatment. It is not. The only reason this happened is that politicians seem to not understand "digital stuff" and got lobbied into passing legislation that gives corporations the freedom to take away any consumer rights as soon as there's any kind of software involved.
This practice needs to stop.
There are tons of regulations in place for Books, for example. When you publish a book in the US, you need to provide examples to the Library of Congress. Not a "license", not a "subscription", but a copy of the real book that works forever.
With videos and software it should be the same. You want to sell movies online? You can do that, but you need to provide a DRM-free version to the government. As soon as any user has a proven problem receiving this version (e.g. technical incompatibilities). They will be provided that DRM-free version. Done. If companies don't want that to happen, they need to make sure that their stuff always works on any system the DRM-free version could also work on.
When Lobbyists whine about so-called "piracy", they forget that copyright law already protects against that. You don't need DRM for that. Even those DRM-free copies couldn't legally be distributed by the users that receive them, so I don't see the issue.
Holding an entire society hostage to this is a terrible development. Books, Music, Movies, Video Games....
In a few hundred years, Historians are going to look back and define this as the dark age of Art and Media because everything will be lost. Our cultural heritage will be so "protected" that nobody will be able to use it anymore.
Who will guarantee that a given DRM server will run on 10, 100, 1000 years?
For the sake of preservation and free access to information, art and media (free as in: without boundaries, not without payment), we need to stop this.
Anyway. I'm ranting off again on this.
The thing is that this isn't even a particular Apple problem. Apple is the most lenient media streaming provider. Compared to Netflix, Amazon etc. they allow users to download movies for a period of time in HD quality which is great for users that want to watch high quality video but can't stream it in real-time due to bandwidth constraints.
I'm not blaming Apple for this but the current political situation.
There just needs to be legislation that outlaws these toxic DRM practices. At least in at least one big market like California. It's as simple as that.
It's like tax evasion practices. You can't blame a particular company to use perfectly legal loopholes to stay competitive. If you want to sell movies online, you need to work with the movie studios that demand DRM. You can choose not to do that and go out of business or you comply.
I just can't wrap my mind around how it is legal to create a technical limitation to force users to buy a new computer after a year due to a corporate decision that is clearly not a technical reason because the computer is perfectly capable of playing back 4k and higher resolution video.
I need to buy a new computer because the lawyers want me to, not because it's technically necessary.
Lobbyists will say "you don't understand how the DRM works" and I'll respond "I do, and that's why it shouldn't be there in the first place".
Same with movies. Want to watch a 4k movie with a custom subtitle track in VLC player in a particular obscure language that your deaf grandma understands and that isn't part of the subtitles offered by your streaming provider? Well you legally can't because in order to do that you first need to remove the DRM.
Reverse engineering should be perfectly legal. If I buy a chair, I can take measurements if I want to add a pillow to it. Copyright law already prevents me from creating an exact copy of the chair and selling it.
But digital stuf seems to be exempt. Copyright lobbyists lie to us, making us believe that software is some kind of arcane thing that needs some special treatment. It is not. The only reason this happened is that politicians seem to not understand "digital stuff" and got lobbied into passing legislation that gives corporations the freedom to take away any consumer rights as soon as there's any kind of software involved.
This practice needs to stop.
There are tons of regulations in place for Books, for example. When you publish a book in the US, you need to provide examples to the Library of Congress. Not a "license", not a "subscription", but a copy of the real book that works forever.
With videos and software it should be the same. You want to sell movies online? You can do that, but you need to provide a DRM-free version to the government. As soon as any user has a proven problem receiving this version (e.g. technical incompatibilities). They will be provided that DRM-free version. Done. If companies don't want that to happen, they need to make sure that their stuff always works on any system the DRM-free version could also work on.
When Lobbyists whine about so-called "piracy", they forget that copyright law already protects against that. You don't need DRM for that. Even those DRM-free copies couldn't legally be distributed by the users that receive them, so I don't see the issue.
Holding an entire society hostage to this is a terrible development. Books, Music, Movies, Video Games....
In a few hundred years, Historians are going to look back and define this as the dark age of Art and Media because everything will be lost. Our cultural heritage will be so "protected" that nobody will be able to use it anymore.
Who will guarantee that a given DRM server will run on 10, 100, 1000 years?
For the sake of preservation and free access to information, art and media (free as in: without boundaries, not without payment), we need to stop this.
Anyway. I'm ranting off again on this.
The thing is that this isn't even a particular Apple problem. Apple is the most lenient media streaming provider. Compared to Netflix, Amazon etc. they allow users to download movies for a period of time in HD quality which is great for users that want to watch high quality video but can't stream it in real-time due to bandwidth constraints.
I'm not blaming Apple for this but the current political situation.
There just needs to be legislation that outlaws these toxic DRM practices. At least in at least one big market like California. It's as simple as that.
It's like tax evasion practices. You can't blame a particular company to use perfectly legal loopholes to stay competitive. If you want to sell movies online, you need to work with the movie studios that demand DRM. You can choose not to do that and go out of business or you comply.
I just can't wrap my mind around how it is legal to create a technical limitation to force users to buy a new computer after a year due to a corporate decision that is clearly not a technical reason because the computer is perfectly capable of playing back 4k and higher resolution video.
I need to buy a new computer because the lawyers want me to, not because it's technically necessary.
Lobbyists will say "you don't understand how the DRM works" and I'll respond "I do, and that's why it shouldn't be there in the first place".
redheeler
macrumors G3
I understand the need for DRM on a streaming service that offers offline downloads or rentals, nothing will stop users from unsubscribing and still being able to play the files.
But DRM for purchased TV shows and movies needs to be done away with completely. In fact, Apple already tried did this for iTunes music, and it has worked out great.
Until then, people will continue to be driven to piracy by the very thing intended to stop it. And history shows that no matter how strong the DRM is, determined pirates will eventually find a way around it.
But DRM for purchased TV shows and movies needs to be done away with completely. In fact, Apple already tried did this for iTunes music, and it has worked out great.
Until then, people will continue to be driven to piracy by the very thing intended to stop it. And history shows that no matter how strong the DRM is, determined pirates will eventually find a way around it.
The Phazer
macrumors 68040
By "great" you mean "totally imploded in favour of DRMed streaming services" right?
redheeler
macrumors G3
The option to purchase music on the iTunes Store is still there.
PastaPrimav
Suspended
By "totally imploded in favor of DRMed streaming services" you mean "made digital music infinitely more successful paving the way for even better options and services like Apple Music"...right?
elvisthebeagle
macrumors newbie
A note I sent to Apple while waiting (and still waiting ) for the answer to will the iMac Pro run; 4K HDCP 2.2, DMR, HDMI 2.0, HDR10, HDR Dolby Vision Video. In short it is streaming 4K content. Netflix for one.
I want to be able to edit and play back this media. In future, I believe all content will be like this. Gaming industry is using DRM. For $5000.00 I should be able to do that on a current PRO model from Apple. It is not all Apple’s fault. They could be more forthright about the machines limitations. They have been quoted "4K. is available on all Mac models introduced in 2018 or later with 4K-resolution screens.” Apple says that "4K, 4K HDR, 4K Dolby Vision, Dolby Atmos, and HDR10 content is available on all Mac models introduced in 2018 or later with 4K-resolution screens”.
My Note”
NO, It can not. HDCP 2.2 that is also DMR (Digital Rights management) that is built into all 4K commercial content including Apple TV will not work on the iMac Pro. I was right to send it back. The reason why it won’t work is in simple form is the Processor (Intel Skylake) will not support it because it’s old, discontinued and no onboard graphics. The Vega Graphics also is in the same boat. Nvidia has compatibility and just now as in like weeks ago AMD has anounced a new 7mm architecture with a “Adrenaline” drivers that will make Apple and Xeon chips with no graphics onboard work. I would guess that would be the iMac Pro 2 coming next year? Not to mention the HDR 10, Dolby Vision, and so on. It’s also 10 bit HEVC decoding involved. Simple fix, a computer with Kabylake or later with onboard Intel Graphics. Hence the Apple line 2018 and later. This is also true for any MFG that used only AMD Processor and graphics to this day. The iMac pro is technically 2015-16 hardware with a T2 and a fantastic redesign cooling system. I’m sorry but true...
This is because the 2018 Mac lineup all utilize Intel's Kaby Lake processors with ON BOARD INTEL GRAPHICS, and Netflix requires the 10-bit HEVC codec support specific to those chips in order to play in 4K on a PC. The support comes from the Intel graphics and the Vega graphics gas nothing to do with it. And never will.
The new Mac Pro if not configured correctly will suffer from the same fate. The new Intel XEON chip has no onboard graphics and the basic config. is a Radeon Pro 580X that is also not compatible and never will be. You will need to buy the new 7mm Vega II with a drive called “ Adrenaline “. Then when Catalina comes out next year you will be able to do all of this. Funny, a 2018 Mac Air can play this with Windows 10. Maybe not so funny if I Han not returned my iMac Pro in the allotted time.
I bought a regular old 27” iMac with Vega 48, 1GB SSD, 8 GB RAM and got 64 GB RAM from OAC. Now I have a compatible hardware configuration except I wanted the T2 Chip, all new interior design that runs much cooler, quieter , and with much less power. Not to mention the 1080P camera, speakers, more thunderbolt 3 ports and VERY cool space gray.
Cheers !!!
P.S. The iMac Pro refurbished and available at OWC for $3799.00. A full 3 yr Apple Care ( $169.00 extra ) is also available.
I want to be able to edit and play back this media. In future, I believe all content will be like this. Gaming industry is using DRM. For $5000.00 I should be able to do that on a current PRO model from Apple. It is not all Apple’s fault. They could be more forthright about the machines limitations. They have been quoted "4K. is available on all Mac models introduced in 2018 or later with 4K-resolution screens.” Apple says that "4K, 4K HDR, 4K Dolby Vision, Dolby Atmos, and HDR10 content is available on all Mac models introduced in 2018 or later with 4K-resolution screens”.
My Note”
NO, It can not. HDCP 2.2 that is also DMR (Digital Rights management) that is built into all 4K commercial content including Apple TV will not work on the iMac Pro. I was right to send it back. The reason why it won’t work is in simple form is the Processor (Intel Skylake) will not support it because it’s old, discontinued and no onboard graphics. The Vega Graphics also is in the same boat. Nvidia has compatibility and just now as in like weeks ago AMD has anounced a new 7mm architecture with a “Adrenaline” drivers that will make Apple and Xeon chips with no graphics onboard work. I would guess that would be the iMac Pro 2 coming next year? Not to mention the HDR 10, Dolby Vision, and so on. It’s also 10 bit HEVC decoding involved. Simple fix, a computer with Kabylake or later with onboard Intel Graphics. Hence the Apple line 2018 and later. This is also true for any MFG that used only AMD Processor and graphics to this day. The iMac pro is technically 2015-16 hardware with a T2 and a fantastic redesign cooling system. I’m sorry but true...
This is because the 2018 Mac lineup all utilize Intel's Kaby Lake processors with ON BOARD INTEL GRAPHICS, and Netflix requires the 10-bit HEVC codec support specific to those chips in order to play in 4K on a PC. The support comes from the Intel graphics and the Vega graphics gas nothing to do with it. And never will.
The new Mac Pro if not configured correctly will suffer from the same fate. The new Intel XEON chip has no onboard graphics and the basic config. is a Radeon Pro 580X that is also not compatible and never will be. You will need to buy the new 7mm Vega II with a drive called “ Adrenaline “. Then when Catalina comes out next year you will be able to do all of this. Funny, a 2018 Mac Air can play this with Windows 10. Maybe not so funny if I Han not returned my iMac Pro in the allotted time.
I bought a regular old 27” iMac with Vega 48, 1GB SSD, 8 GB RAM and got 64 GB RAM from OAC. Now I have a compatible hardware configuration except I wanted the T2 Chip, all new interior design that runs much cooler, quieter , and with much less power. Not to mention the 1080P camera, speakers, more thunderbolt 3 ports and VERY cool space gray.
Cheers !!!
P.S. The iMac Pro refurbished and available at OWC for $3799.00. A full 3 yr Apple Care ( $169.00 extra ) is also available.
elvisthebeagle
macrumors newbie
Learned one more thing. There is not one Apple display that is HDR capable. That is "High Dynamic Range". 4K , 5K and Retina do not mean HDR. They are very close but "not". It is a wider color palette. I tried to build on paper a 4K HDR HDMI 2.2 DMR compatible computer with editing abilities and I was up over $4500 before I realized that I still needed a $1200.00 Monitor and more dollars in software. And that was using cheap components with no warranties or sales tax. My iMac Pro from OWC was $4200 with 64GB ram.
The "NEW" iMac Pro to people "savvy" the industry know that the new machine is a very good investment for their Industry. We "us poor folk" just need to wait for a few issues to resolve and buy an external monitor, hopefully...
Now before we go off and smash our computers, very few, I mean only a couple of very high dollar displays are HDMI,DRM,HDCP 2.2, HDR10 and also meant for use on computers. (A regular 4K HDR TV does not have the refresh rate to do anything more that watch a movie. (Gamers, editors would find them useless.) It does not matter if you have Windows 10 or Catalina. 4k DRM HDMI 2.2 HDR media has strict requirements to operate correctly and if ANYTHING is not 4K DRM HDR compliant then it will not work. You might get a picture but it will not be 4k HDR.
Part of the reason Apple has be so slow to develop this is ( and this is my guess) that Microsoft uses the Intel's SGX Technology on the Intel processor and Apple won't go near it. It has and is full of security holes that allow attacks that no Virus / Total protection can detect. That is a one big reason Apple developed the T2 Chip. SECURITY ! Apple computers disable the SGX technology on the motherboard. SGX is what allows a Intel chip without onboard HD graphics to "Handshake" with DRM protected media.
I would rather have a very safe computer (T2 Chip) than watch a 4K movie. I do not use the encryption for what ever reasons and the T2 chip has a mountain of other instructions and functions that vastly empower my computer on many levels. Now you can still edit / process 4K / 8K if you have the power just not decode commercial content. These things can be addressed by Apple through the GPU and Operating System. Still you will have to have a HDR Monitor and so does Windows 10 computers.
Cheers!
P.S. I just noticed that I no longer have a fortune of hardware and software that does not work since switching to Apple. I sill get the shivers when I see "Windows Compatible" On Apple things that they say work, do work. Maybe it might be in development but it will work and be very useful. The Maps, Speech and Siri have come a long way and I use "speech" now all the time. Amazing how well it works. Siri is only as smart as a Google / and other Search Engines . Google is powered by advertisers. If you can remember that it won't be as frustrating.
Google in my modest opinion has really dropped the ball. Google is "Ad" Driven. Apple with it's billions could buy a search engine and properly build it as a knowledge base and charge a minimal fee. Just like Harvard, MIT, and so on.
Computers are fun to use as entertainment and toys, They are much more fun to use a powerful tools.
The "NEW" iMac Pro to people "savvy" the industry know that the new machine is a very good investment for their Industry. We "us poor folk" just need to wait for a few issues to resolve and buy an external monitor, hopefully...
Now before we go off and smash our computers, very few, I mean only a couple of very high dollar displays are HDMI,DRM,HDCP 2.2, HDR10 and also meant for use on computers. (A regular 4K HDR TV does not have the refresh rate to do anything more that watch a movie. (Gamers, editors would find them useless.) It does not matter if you have Windows 10 or Catalina. 4k DRM HDMI 2.2 HDR media has strict requirements to operate correctly and if ANYTHING is not 4K DRM HDR compliant then it will not work. You might get a picture but it will not be 4k HDR.
Part of the reason Apple has be so slow to develop this is ( and this is my guess) that Microsoft uses the Intel's SGX Technology on the Intel processor and Apple won't go near it. It has and is full of security holes that allow attacks that no Virus / Total protection can detect. That is a one big reason Apple developed the T2 Chip. SECURITY ! Apple computers disable the SGX technology on the motherboard. SGX is what allows a Intel chip without onboard HD graphics to "Handshake" with DRM protected media.
I would rather have a very safe computer (T2 Chip) than watch a 4K movie. I do not use the encryption for what ever reasons and the T2 chip has a mountain of other instructions and functions that vastly empower my computer on many levels. Now you can still edit / process 4K / 8K if you have the power just not decode commercial content. These things can be addressed by Apple through the GPU and Operating System. Still you will have to have a HDR Monitor and so does Windows 10 computers.
Cheers!
P.S. I just noticed that I no longer have a fortune of hardware and software that does not work since switching to Apple. I sill get the shivers when I see "Windows Compatible" On Apple things that they say work, do work. Maybe it might be in development but it will work and be very useful. The Maps, Speech and Siri have come a long way and I use "speech" now all the time. Amazing how well it works. Siri is only as smart as a Google / and other Search Engines . Google is powered by advertisers. If you can remember that it won't be as frustrating.
Google in my modest opinion has really dropped the ball. Google is "Ad" Driven. Apple with it's billions could buy a search engine and properly build it as a knowledge base and charge a minimal fee. Just like Harvard, MIT, and so on.
Computers are fun to use as entertainment and toys, They are much more fun to use a powerful tools.
The Phazer
macrumors 68040
No they don't. You can play 4K Netflix on a Windows machine with a compatible Nvidia card even if it has an AMD processor that doesn't support SGX.
(UHD Blu-rays need SGX, but not UHD movie playback over streaming services generally.)
vagos1103gr
macrumors regular
I have an iMac mini i5 2018 with razor egpu Vega 64 connected with display port on a 27 lg ul650 monitor that supports hdr. Why in Windows I can play hdr games and watch YouTube hdr videos and in the latest beta 10 when I start to watch an hdr video from my tune collection says that my monitor doesn’t support hdcp? I thought with Catalina we will be able to watch hdr the supported movies.
elvisthebeagle
macrumors newbie
- 4K, 4K HDR, 4K Dolby Vision, Dolby Atmos, and HDR10 content is available on all Mac models introduced in 2018 or later with 4K-resolution screens.
This is the conditional note posted on Catalinas site for Apple Computers running Apple TV. I cut and pasted this directly. What I do not get is that not one Apple Display is HDR10 equipped. You would need an external monitor that is UHD HDMI 2 HDCP 2.2 HDR10 Dolby Vision DRM compliant and so on. The new $1000 Apple Monitor should handle it.
Don't freak. Nobody else's can either. Widows has limited playback and we can run Windows, hack, cough. It is a freaking mess of patents, hardware / software that could poke big holes in Mac OS security.
The basic hardware as in the graphics card can process 4K even 8K video is not encoded with a ton of copy protection that allows 4K only to work proper on a 4K 2017 + HDR UHD TV. Even then if you added a sound bar that is not rated 4k compliant to your TV system NOTHING WILL WORK.
Cheers !!!
And be patient.....
EugW
macrumors P6
No, you can do it with a 5K iMac on the internal screen.
Don’t get hung up on technicalities of the HDR spec. Most people don’t give chit if the screen doesn’t reach 1000 nits, and neither does Apple in this context.
SoyCapitanSoyCapitan
Suspended
Tried playback with three different screens on 2018 Macs all 10 bit screens and one HDR. There's no 4K playback as far as I can see. Downloading or streaming is 1080p. Quicktime is broken and can't play downloaded Apple TV/iTunes movies.
HungryForMore
macrumors newbie
So it seems 2018 mac mini with eGPU won't play 4K videos from the TV app. Does anyone know if the iGPU works for that?
Synchro3
macrumors 68000
I have a 4K HDR monitor (Acer Nitro XV273K), and the TV app on my Mac Mini 2018 with Catalina 15.0 is not streaming 4K, only HD.... Using the iGPU.
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The Phazer
macrumors 68040
I very much doubt it will ever work with an EGPU. Apple probably can't secure the video path there.
But I am increasingly convinced this never shipped with Catalina. Literally nobody, across the entire internet, seems to have gotten it to work with any machine.
Synchro3
macrumors 68000
It won't play 4K videos with the Mac Mini 2018 iPGU either.
hooptyuber
macrumors 6502
The thing that really hacks me off is that 4k, HDR, Dolby Vision movies that I've purchased on iTunes will only download and play in standard definition! Whaaat?!? They look like crap. I don't even get 1080p.
You can't tell me that my late 2015 iMac can't play 1080p. Same deal with my 2016 MacBook Pro. It makes the desktop Catalina Apple TV app a useless piece of junk. I won't watch anything from Apple TV on my Macs because the video quality is abysmal. Standard definition? How could Apple have thought this would be in any way acceptable?
You can't tell me that my late 2015 iMac can't play 1080p. Same deal with my 2016 MacBook Pro. It makes the desktop Catalina Apple TV app a useless piece of junk. I won't watch anything from Apple TV on my Macs because the video quality is abysmal. Standard definition? How could Apple have thought this would be in any way acceptable?