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Apple TV Games... Failed?

Is this debate still going?? ATV as a gaming platform is a none starter as it stands.

The gaming studios don't really support mobile platforms with the millions of devices they have sold so a hobby project with very little coverage and only a small number of that small market even vaguely interesting in playing games is never going to get far..
 
Robnsn2015 said:
Very cool wish list and a well-written article.
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By the way, I think it is pretty convenient that I can buy a game for Apple TV and get the same game on my iPhone with no extra charge.
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Thanks! And I agree!

However, I whole-heartedly believe if Apple wanted to use Apple TV / Apple ecosystem to take on console gaming, they could and would indeed slay the competition. But ONLY if they got big-time serious about gaming: included controllers, beefy CPU, A-list titles, etc.. Unfortunately, it doesn't appear that Apple really understands (or has taken the time to study) what people want in living room/big screen gaming.

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JeffPerrin said:
Thanks! And I agree!

However, I whole-heartedly believe if Apple wanted to use Apple TV / Apple ecosystem to take on console gaming, they could and would indeed slay the competition. But ONLY if they got big-time serious about gaming: included controllers, beefy CPU, A-list titles, etc.. Unfortunately, it doesn't appear that Apple really understands (or has taken the time to study) what people want in living room/big screen gaming.

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I wouldn't be so sure, many of the big A list names are owned by the big 3 companies.
I for instance I have a PS4 pro and a Switch, I want to be able to play Marino etc plus gran turismo, uncharted etc. do I really want to buy a third device to play another group of exclusives on?
I think Apple know this isn't their market and it's not one they would be guaranteed to succeed in.
Plus this device would be nothing like an Apple TV. If a PS4 Pro is $560 then with the Apple tax a comparative device would probably be close to $800. I'm not sure your typical gamer is willing to pay that and a casual gaming type certainly won't.
 
danny842003 said:
I wouldn't be so sure, many of the big A list names are owned by the big 3 companies.
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Good point! But then again, Apple could certainly afford to buy one up to ensure their place in the market.

I think Apple know this isn't their market and it's not one they would be guaranteed to succeed in.
Plus this device would be nothing like an Apple TV. If a PS4 Pro is $560 then with the Apple tax a comparative device would probably be close to $800.
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Makes sense, though people had similar issues/arguments with Apple prior to the iPhone. Back in the day, it seemed unimaginable Apple would attempt to enter the phone market... And we know how that went! I wouldn't expect Apple to simply enter the console market... I would expect the Apple that reinvented the mobile phone industry to turn the console industry upside-down, sideways, and inside-out! :) The question is... is Apple still that same company? Is it capable of market disruption any more?.... o_O
 
JeffPerrin said:
Good point! But then again, Apple could certainly afford to buy one up to ensure their place in the market.



Makes sense, though people had similar issues/arguments with Apple prior to the iPhone. Back in the day, it seemed unimaginable Apple would attempt to enter the phone market... And we know how that went! I wouldn't expect Apple to simply enter the console market... I would expect the Apple that reinvented the mobile phone industry to turn the console industry upside-down, sideways, and inside-out! :) The question is... is Apple still that same company? Is it capable of market disruption any more?.... o_O
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Apple already tried to make a games console and how did that work out?
Sure Apple could do it, but it won't be with a streaming box like the Apple TV.

With the money Apple has there probably isn't an industry that they couldn't get in to, but I don't expect to see Apple branded electric toothbrushes or inflatable life like sex dolls any time soon either.
 
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danny842003 said:
I wouldn't be so sure, many of the big A list names are owned by the big 3 companies.
I for instance I have a PS4 pro and a Switch, I want to be able to play Marino etc plus gran turismo, uncharted etc. do I really want to buy a third device to play another group of exclusives on?
I think Apple know this isn't their market and it's not one they would be guaranteed to succeed in.
Plus this device would be nothing like an Apple TV. If a PS4 Pro is $560 then with the Apple tax a comparative device would probably be close to $800. I'm not sure your typical gamer is willing to pay that and a casual gaming type certainly won't.
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This would be a short to medium term strategy.

From casual online searches, it looks like revenue from mobile gaming is projected to, or already has, overtaken console and PC gaming, individually. As smartphones get more and more capable, combined with their being right there with you at all times, I believe mobile gaming will grow to become larger than consoles and PC gaming, combined. While there are and will always be hard core gamers, they are the connoisseurs of game media. I agree Apple will not easily attract people who enjoy not only the gameplay, but the ability to fine tune frame rate and other specs to levels I, as a mundane, cannot appreciate or comprehend. And Apple may not be able to steal Baby Boomers and Gen X'ers who grew up on certain game series.

But, my son is in the fifth grade. He knows Mario, he knows Zelda, he knows Master Chief, but he's not obsessed with any series or games having great specs. And he's probably already played more mobile gaming than on any console. In 3 to 5 years, that may change.

I think there is an abundance of excellent independent game companies out there that would do a fantastic job of creating games for Apple for recognition on their App Show and for a chance at some of that $1B. Apple is in the unique position where someone in their ecosystem could download a game for the Mac and have a copy for their setbox, tablet and smartphone.

No other company can do this and I believe it would be a game changer and allow Apple to dominate not just mobile gaming, but gaming in general.
 
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Perhaps but I personally just do not see this happening.
You would need the Apple TV to get a much larger instal base than it currently has. Now I have a TV3 and will be ordering the new one as soon as it goes up on the website as long as it has 4k support. But I do not see the install base ever getting that large.
Personally I want the Apple TV for my photos and for Apple Music my guess is most people will be happy with the apps their smart TV has built in.
Unless Apple can offer a new and exciting reason for the masses to buy an Apple TV that base is never going to grow very much beyond people heavily invested in the ecosystem. I do not believe games are going to be a big ebough draw to make that happen when people already have plenty of options for gaming.
 
The ATV has potential to be a great gaming platform, it just feels a little underwhelming right now.
 
Gotta look at the data folks;

Yes, mobile gaming is the biggest platform. But the desktop and console game systems numbers are still very big.

The PC and console gaming market is worth tens of billions of dollars. The lack of success in gaming on the Apple TV illustrates how mobile and living room/big screen gaming are in reality, two different markets. By not tapping into the console gaming market, Apple is leaving money on the table...
 
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You need to break the 99c mindset for ATV games to take off. People want a console level of experience but are reluctant to pay a console-level price. Regular console games are £35-£45 and Switch titles (that would be comparable to supporting both ATV and iOS) are more like £50 at the moment.

If people were willing to pay that level of price for a quality game then the developers would come.
 
Yes, the gaming side of the Apple TV has been a major let-down. It was widely thought that Steve Jobs didn't really like gaming which was why Macs were never really optimised for games and gaming wasn't mentioned much at iOS device releases (until it became so big they couldn't ignore it any longer). At the ATV 4 launch, Apple talked up gaming so they obviously saw it as a major part of the ATV going forward. Unfortunately, their desire for control killed this pretty much stone dead - games had to support the Siri remote in addition to MFI controllers (which weren't 'in the box'). This meant that even when the ATV 4 install base was in the millions, no developer could count on many owners have a decent controller and had to compromise their games to make them work with the Siri remote. By the time Apple relaxed the Siri remote requirement it was too late - many people had written off the ATV as a serious gaming platform and the Devs knew not to bother. Now Apple has a chance to correct these issues, but now it's going to be harder and more expensive than it was before as they have to turn people's mindsets around...

To the people who think MS and Sony are too big, you are forgetting the situation in the mid 90s. Nintendo and Sega had the market locked up. Other big names had tried to break into the market (Atari Jaguar, Philips CDi, Panasonic 3DO) and failed. When Sony announced it would release a console, many doubted they would do any better than the other pretenders - and we all know how that turned out. But why? A lot was down to the arrogance of the big two - Nintendo by thinking its name would trump all and Sony because they refused to realise that their design for the Saturn was not as good as they thought. Sony stole the 32-bit wars because they were willing to put their might behind the marketing of the PS and look beyond the typical audience (under 18s) and look to the young adult market. They also splashed the cash by subsidising the hardware to undercut the big two and secure some exclusives by locking up some major Devs (such as Namco (Ridge Racer, Tekken etc), Psygnosis (WipEout, Destruction Derby etc) and the big coup: Square Enix (Final Fantasy).

If Apple want to succeed in this market (and it is a big market!) then they have to actively push it - put a decent chip in the ATV 5, not just one that can play 4K, but one that can at least match the Switch in CPU, GPU and RAM (which as a custom, but downclocked Tegra X1). Include a standard controller (even if it is a 'gamer bundle') put some money into getting devs on-board - perhaps start with funding/encouraging the indies to publish on ATV, paying for a major exclusive such as the next Final Fantasy or GTA and giving a break on the typical 30% app store fee would focus attention on ATV as a gaming platform to be reconed with. Perhaps spend some of their billions on a dev studio to make exclusive big ticket games. People are right that Sony and Nintendo have great 1st and 2nd party games, but MS have great 1st and 2nd party devs and I can't think of many system-sellers for the XB1.

Sadly I don't think Apple wants to make this kind of investment and at this moment I'm expecting that they will only give the ATV the horsepower to playback 4K HDR HEVC files rather than provide GPU grunt, highlight a few games at launch and on the App Store, but otherwise business as usual...
 
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Robnsn2015 said:
Unfortunately, mobile gaming is the fastest-growing aspect of gaming. Also, console gaming is mostly locked up between PlayStation and Xbox, with PlayStation clearly in the lead. The big gaming hardware companies seem to be retreating to their strengths: Microsoft is integrating Xbox gaming with PC gaming, the Nintendo Switch leverages Nintendo's strengths in portable gaming, and Apple seems to be leveraging its strengths in mobile gaming.
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Going from $1 to $2 in sales is 100% growth. It's easy to be fastest growing when you're tiny.

PC and Console games were a $91 Billion industry in 2016. More than double the NFL, NBA, NHL, and MLB combined. The 2016 Hollywood box office set a record at $11.1 billion. All of Hollywood is a minor blip next to the gaming market. Apple's entire App store revenue was $28 billion in 2016 and that's everything for iOS and Mac, games and non-games. How much is the mobile gaming market worth? Not a whole lot.

As long as the freemium nightmare rules mobile gaming, mobile gaming will continue to suck. It's not just the revenue model but that the games are designed to make you buy your next hit rather than being designed to be fun.
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JeffPerrin said:
Gotta look at the data folks;

Yes, mobile gaming is the biggest platform. But the desktop and console game systems numbers are still very big.
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Can I please see this data that says mobile gaming is the biggest platform? The numbers I'm seeing show that outside a handful of freemium titles (candy crush, clash of clans, etc), there is very little money being made in mobile gaming at all. And even including those freemium titles mobile gaming is lost next to the juggernaut of the gaming industry. That's why mobile games in general are low budget low quality games so that that can turn a profit on the skimpy budgets while $100 million PC/console game budgets aren't uncommon.
 
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DevNull0 said:
As long as the freemium nightmare rules mobile gaming, mobile gaming will continue to suck.
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Amen, brother. Freemium model turned me off mobile gaming a long time ago.

Can I please see this data that says mobile gaming is the biggest platform?"
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It doesn't take a Google search to see where gaming is heading. (Here you go anyway - 1st page hit: https://venturebeat.com/2017/07/13/games-revenue-will-top-150-billion-in-2017-and-keep-growing/ )

But again, my point was that living room gaming is not mobile gaming. Living room/big screen gaming will never again outsize mobile, but that doesn't mean console/PC gaming is going away. The point of discussion is that Apple currently does not have a real player in the living room/big screen gaming market.
 
JeffPerrin said:
Amen, brother. Freemium model turned me off mobile gaming a long time ago.



It doesn't take a Google search to see where gaming is heading. (Here you go anyway - 1st page hit: https://venturebeat.com/2017/07/13/games-revenue-will-top-150-billion-in-2017-and-keep-growing/ )

But again, my point was that living room gaming is not mobile gaming. Living room/big screen gaming will never again outsize mobile, but that doesn't mean console/PC gaming is going away. The point of discussion is that Apple currently does not have a real player in the living room/big screen gaming market.
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The thing is Apple interested in being a player in that market?
Nothing suggests that they do. Apple has all the money in the world but they can't do everything. To take on the big three and be successful would take a lot of time, effort and money with no guarantee of success.
If they want to move in to that market they should begin by making Macs more game friendly and see where that takes them.
 
danny842003 said:
The thing is Apple interested in being a player in that market?
Nothing suggests that they do. Apple has all the money in the world but they can't do everything. To take on the big three and be successful would take a lot of time, effort and money with no guarantee of success.
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If that's the case, then why create an Apple TV with apps? If casual gaming has (obviously) not taken off on the ATV platform like Apple had hoped, then why not just make ATV 5 a simple, cheap streaming "stick"? They'd attract more users with a cheaper device, no? My hope is that they will keep iterating until the living room strategy is perfected. And that means getting serious about gaming!

As far as taking on the "console" gaming market, it's hard to believe Apple is not up to the task. Getting into the mobile phone market at all was a far, far greater challenge! It's just they haven't really focused their sites on serious, big screen gaming. That their new app-driven Apple TV has taken a regular beating in the press/reviews should be a wake-up call. ;)
 
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JeffPerrin said:
It doesn't take a Google search to see where gaming is heading. (Here you go anyway - 1st page hit: https://venturebeat.com/2017/07/13/games-revenue-will-top-150-billion-in-2017-and-keep-growing/ )
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Thanks for that link, it was an interesting read. It seems to pretty much include my $91 billion figure for PC/Console software but your link provides much more detail than I had. At least for now, mobile is about 1/3rd of PC/Console which is admittedly a lot more than I thought mobile had. My takeaway from that article is that it doesn't sound like mobile is going to eclipse PC/Console any time soon, but the future looks bright across the whole spectrum.

I'm not sure why they break out MMO/MOBA games as a separate category though. It's like saying if the entire mobile market beats individual genres of PC games, then mobile dominates the game market.


JeffPerrin said:
Amen, brother. Freemium model turned me off mobile gaming a long time ago.
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I used to love the earlier generation mobile games on my iPod Touch, first iPhones and iPad. I don't think I've even visited toucharcade or downloaded a single mobile game in the past 3 years...actually except for that dark OZ RPG they featured at the keynote a couple of years back which I deleted after a couple of hours. What a great example of how freemium games have ruined the market
 
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JeffPerrin said:
If that's the case, then why create an Apple TV with apps? If casual gaming has (obviously) not taken off on the ATV platform like Apple had hoped, then why not just make ATV 5 a simple, cheap streaming "stick"? They'd attract more users with a cheaper device, no? My hope is that they will keep iterating until the living room strategy is perfected. And that means getting serious about gaming!

As far as taking on the "console" gaming market, it's hard to believe Apple is not up to the task. Getting into the mobile phone market at all was a far, far greater challenge! It's just they haven't really focused their sites on serious, big screen gaming. That their new app-driven Apple TV has taken a regular beating in the press/reviews should be a wake-up call. ;)
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Are the only apps on atv games?
Getting serious about gaming is going to require a device totally different to what the ATV is though.
I didn't say they weren't up to the task just that I don't believe they are interested int he task.
Was it a greater challenge to get in to the mobile market? What's your evidence for this?
 
JeffPerrin said:
If that's the case, then why create an Apple TV with apps? If casual gaming has (obviously) not taken off on the ATV platform like Apple had hoped, then why not just make ATV 5 a simple, cheap streaming "stick"? They'd attract more users with a cheaper device, no? My hope is that they will keep iterating until the living room strategy is perfected. And that means getting serious about gaming!

As far as taking on the "console" gaming market, it's hard to believe Apple is not up to the task. Getting into the mobile phone market at all was a far, far greater challenge! It's just they haven't really focused their sites on serious, big screen gaming. That their new app-driven Apple TV has taken a regular beating in the press/reviews should be a wake-up call. ;)
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How do we know that Apple TV gaming has NOT taken off as Apple has hoped? Have they announced this? Have there been any quotes from actual Apple employees? I'm sure Apple's internal data and forecast models are accurate enough for them to have an idea of what they were getting themselves into with Apple TV games.

Also, the example that started this thread (and the article it is based on), is missing a factor: if you buy Kingdom: New Lands on an iOS device, you get it on Apple TV for free. The sales numbers don't take that into account.

Gaming on Apple TV is possibly meant to be simply an extension of iOS gaming. Maybe Apple feels that is it a value proposition for game developers to simply modify their games for Apple TV instead of creating a game from scratch for Apple TV only.

As an example, Apple TV games might be a way for parents to let their kids continue to play the games they started playing on their parents' iPhones.

This is a good model for developers who already created iOS games and want to expand their market with minimum effort. This would be especially good for those developers whose games generate revenue based on advertising on the dreaded in-app purchases.

Why would Apple take this approach? I assume to keep users in the iOS/tvOS ecosystem.
 
Maybe I've run my course on gaming but I personally haven't found any game on Apple TV that keeps my attention. I'm currently playing Star Wars Commander on iOS and that's pretty much the only game (and Words With Friends a few minutes a day).

I bought a controller to use when I was going to be home from work for a few weeks and really looked into it, but there just wasn't that many games, and the ones that interested me were a bit clunky. I had started Sky Force Reloaded on iOS and downloaded the ATV version. It wasn't as easy to control. I think I'm really good on iOS but had trouble with easier levels on ATV.

Sega Forever is launching a lot of neat games on iOS... only a few have come to ATV, and the ones that haven't are the main ones I'd like to play.

Hopefully it'll grow, but I think more people need to buy an ATV4. There are millions of iPhones out there and loads of way to push these apps to people. That's not the same with ATV.
 
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