Apple TV Specs?

[mrthieme]

[QUOTE=MagicWok;3256262 if Apple were to put a direct HDMI connection into the Mini, not a lot of people would buy the Apple TV - I for sure would not. If they did add a DVD player, the market share of people who go for a Mac Mini, would buy this product instead, and that would hurt sales for Apple.

I don't know if that's exactly true, a beefed up apple tv ( with tv tuner and dvd player) would not be a full fledged computer like the mini. The only feature they would really share, just like now, would be front row, and the main interaction with the atv would be via remote.

I've been reading all the appletv threads I can find, I'm very interested in the product, not so much for what it is, but for what it might mean. Certainly this is not the best media room solution they can offer, they are after all (self proclaimed) better at the "fun stuff". This was a pretty flaccid attempt at getting into our front rooms.

 

[SPUY767]

Core Solo "would of" been preferable? I think you meant "would have" or "would've".

http://wvde.state.wv.us/tt/2002/grammartips/grammartip0039.html

sorry.....couldn't help myself.

Wow, I don't even think that I'm that much of a dick.

 

[agentdavo]

The choice of graphics card is most interesting. Why not a GMA? Here are my thoughts.

I can smoothly decode BBC-HD with an Athlon 64 3000+ and Geforce 6600 with Power DVD Ultra 7.2 at 60% CPU. That is with nvidias superb hardware acceleration (purevideo) support enabled. Without we're looking at 15-20fps max at 100% cpu.

BBC-HD broadcast high profile 1080i H264 with MBAFF interlacing and 422 colorspace. It's pretty much the most difficult and processor intensive stream to decode/deinterlace you will find. Far more complex than the baseline profile Apple use for HD trailers.

I wonder if Apple are working hard with nvidia to bring purevideo support to the ATV/Mac. The movie trailers apple have are 1080p h264 baseline. With the 7400 GO and some driver/decoder optimisation the iTV would have no problem at all in decoding 1080p trailers.

I'm going to try underclocking my PC later to 1Ghz and try playing a 1080p trailer and watch the cpu usage. It would also be interesting to follow up on Accellent and see what framework is now available to 10.4.8 for decoding HD-DVD codecs.

http://www.defyne.org/dvb/accellent.html

Also of note is that nigel on the mythtv dev team has been working for the last year to add mpeg2 accellent to MythTV. Compile with --enable-mac-accel.
http://cvs.mythtv.org/trac/ticket/1279

 

[carlgo]

DVD players are a dying breed and hopefully both BlueRay and HD-DVD will never mature. Would you rather upgrade a piece of equipment everytime the movie studios wish to make some more money from you.
I've been saying this for years, the day of hard media (45s, LPs, 8-Track, Cassettes, CD, LaserDisc, Beta, VHS, DVD, BlueRay, HD-DVD) are numbered!

You have convinced me that my post was somewhat short-sighted when it comes to movies in particular.

I still wonder about all the existing dvds that people have and therefore the continuing need for dvd players.

There is also the subject of iTv's resolution, 720p or not. This subject can extend into the unseeable, but still the 1080p standard is a real one and should be addressed.

As huge screens get cheaper, and this is an obvious trend, and there is more 1080p content via game consols, hd/blueray disks, etc., the iTv will be viewed as behind the times, spec-wise.

And there is still the clutter issue. One poster intends to hide all his stuff and that is fine except it is still there, hidden under the rug, so to say.

I hope that the down-load model works and that Apple Inc can address the continuing problem of clutter and bad interfaces with satellite and cable.

I am really, really mad that the iPhone is not a universal remote

 

[sfwalter]

My question is does iTunes have to be running on the Mac that you're streaming from?

 

[robbyx]

My question is does iTunes have to be running on the Mac that you're streaming from?

Absolutely. That's one of the reasons I switched from iTunes to the SlimServer for my home media server. My media server is a headless G4 in a closet. I don't want to have to leave it logged in to an actual user account. I suppose that isn't the WORST thing, but it's sloppy.

Apple should make iTunes sharing a Sharing service in System Preferences. That way it starts up when the computer boots and the user doesn't have to leave iTunes running.

Of course, the Apple TV does include a hard drive, allowing you to store content locally. In that case, iTunes doesn't need to be running. That's different from streaming, though.

 

[robbyx]

I think the reason there is a lot of anti-bias towards this product, is because people were/are uncertain as to what this product can really do.

I think the specs are pretty clear. Apple TV connects to iTunes and plays all of your MP4 video. Max resolution is 720p. I think people are upset because that is ALL it does. I certainly expected a more full-featured solution along the lines of the various UPnP network media players out there - but done right. I expected more formats to be supported. The user experience looks great, but the lack of support for anything other than MP4 is a deal-breaker. I don't think people are "uncertain" about what Apple TV does. I think they're just disappointed that it doesn't do enough.

In fact, the only plus it has over the Mac Mini, is the connectivity options - if Apple were to put a direct HDMI connection into the Mini, not a lot of people would buy the Apple TV - I for sure would not.

I disagree. Apple TV is not a computer. It's a consumer electronics device. It is optimized for video playback. While I haven't disected a Mini and Apple TV side-by-side, I would bet that the Apple TV does a much better job of handling video playback than the Mini. The Mini has all kinds of other background applications running. By allowing the user to install software (on the Mini), the system becomes less stables, more prone to a potential crash, etc. Apple TV, being a closed architecture, can do one thing and do it very well. I'm not suggesting that one shouldn't connect a Mini to one's TV. However, I think by dragging the Mini into this debate, we're comparing apples to oranges. They're two different things.

If they did add a DVD player, the market share of people who go for a Mac Mini, would buy this product instead, and that would hurt sales for Apple. As a result, I still see it as a bit of a strange standpoint by Apple to include a HDD, as this almost begs for a DVD drive! I'm sure Apple wanted to put a DVD drive in, as this would have increased it's appeal 10 fold, but as for the reasons pointed out before, they couldn't.

I don't think Apple wanted to put a DVD drive in it. Just like they didn't want to put a CD player in the iPod. Apple recognizes that the future of content delivery is electronic. No hard media. That's the model that works for the iPod and they're hoping to replicate that with Apple TV.

As for the Mini market, there may be some people out there who are buying a Mini for their home entertainment system, but those people are a small percentage of the market. Seriously, you say that by adding HDMI to the Mini, no one would buy the Apple TV. I think you're completely wrong here. Many people would/will still buy Apple TV because it's not a computer. It requires minimal effort to set up and isn't as intimidating to the average consumer as a computer. It's a device - and therefore not as complicated. The same goes for Apple including a DVD drive in the Apple TV. The majority of people buying Minis aren't buying them for their entertainment centers. They're buying them because they're a full-fledged computer, a replacement for their old Mac or PC, etc.

By limiting themselves to MP4 on the Apple TV, Apple has alienated a lot of potential customers. They should not ignore the wealth of content out there in other formats. This isn't going to change for a very long time. Why not broaden the appeal of the box by supporting more formats? Apple wants to grow their iTMS revenue. Video will be more lucrative than $0.99/song. Apple doesn't want Apple TV customers getting video anywhere else, be it on DVD or ripped from a DVD. I understand their strategy. However, I think it's flawed. If Apple TV included a DVD player, customers would still buy DVDs. Apple is trying to change the way people obtain content, so providing old-school hard media support would undermine those efforts.

Finally, regarding the hard drive, they included one as a cache. The user can transfer conent to the Apple TV and not leave his or her Mac running. Simple.

 

[Damek]

Even a Pentium M is a dark remnant of a philosophy...

What does that even mean? What is this, Lord of the Rings?

 

[Yvan256]

Apple doesn't want Apple TV customers getting video anywhere else, be it on DVD or ripped from a DVD.

Steve said during the keynote that Apple TV will play anything that iTunes can play (3rd-party CODECs aside). My HandBrake-ripped DVDs (H.264/AAC, .mp4 files) play just fine in iTunes.

Besides, if Apple TV was really limited to iTunes Store purchases, they could only sell the Apple TV in the USA as it's the only country with TV shows and movies in its iTunes Store.

 

[jkdsteve]

Awesome, nice job Apple. I have my order in for one...

We need to compare AppleTV to other Media Players such as this:

http://www.dlink.com/products/?sec=0&pid=318

I have one on order too but...... did you see how superior the dLink product is in teh # of formats it supports? This is what the AppleTV needs to do and I'm still contemplating cancelling my order as all reports today indicate it won't be that product at all

 

[jkdsteve]

I ordered my Apple TV as soon as it became available. I then cancelled my order two days later. Why? Because MP4 support is not enough. I could care less what's inside the box. I only care about what the box can do. I'd put money on the movie studios having forced Apple to support only MP4 video in exchange for content. While that may look good on paper to the studios, it's an utterly boneheaded move.

Apple TV looks great. It's sleek. The interface is top-notch. But where is support for MPEG-2 video? For VOB files? For Transport Streams? For DivX and Xvid? For AVI? Heck, for WMV? If this box is designed for people who buy TV shows on the iTMS, that's not a very big market. Unlike Apple's music market, which continues to grow very quickly, Apple's video market, while strong, isn't enough to make Apple TV a success. I want to rip my DVDs and not have to hunt through a stack of cases to find a movie. I want to play back all the stupid little video clips people send me via email. I want to browse YouTube and Google Video.

Apple TV makes me want to buy an Xbox 360 and Media Center PC to replace my home server (a PowerMac G4). Apple could have hit this one out of the park. Instead, they've delivered a crippled box that doesn't really appeal to many people. And with UPnP offerings from Netgear, Dlink, and others getting better (yeah, I know, they still suck pretty hard...but give it time), Apple is missing a huge window of opportunity. If they supported more formats, this thing could be the next iPod. By limiting themselves to MP4, they've all but guaranteed that Apple TV will be a bit player. I'm a diehard Apple guy. I've been a loyal customer for 24 years now. But I'm not drinking the kool-aid. Apple TV is a stinker.

And before someone pipes up with something to the effect of "well, you can convert your stuff to MP4", who the heck wants to do that? It takes several hours to convert a ripped DVD to MP4. And I certainly don't want to deal with converting the endless little video clips I stumble across on a regular basis. Conversion is too time-consuming and tedious.

Wow...you said everything I wanted to say, except I haven't cancelled by order yet...still holding out hope that Apple realize iTunesTV is simply not enough.

 

[Evangelion]

I don't think Apple wanted to put a DVD drive in it. Just like they didn't want to put a CD player in the iPod.

The difference is that users could take the content from the CD and put in on the iPod. But users CAN'T take content from a DVD and put in on the AppleTV. For starters, it's illegal. And secondly, that solution is too awkward, you lose all the extras DVD offers, and you lose subtitles. CD ==> mp3 does not come with such degradation. Yes, sound-quality is a bit worse, but most people don't notice it anyway.

Apple recognizes that the future of content delivery is electronic.

But it will be dominated by DVD's for years to come. And AppleTV does not work with DVD's. And Apple could have had the best of both worlds: A device that plays back DVD's, while also letting the user watch downloaded content.

That's the model that works for the iPod and they're hoping to replicate that with Apple TV.

But it's nowhere nearly the same with AppleTV as it was with iPod. iPod worked with your existing content. If you had a CD-collection, moving that collection to the iPod was not a big deal. If you had existing mp3's (from various sources) those would play back on the iPod just fine. There were billions of mp3's in the world when iPod was released, and all of them would play back on the iPod. There were billions of music-CD's in the world, and those could be moved to the iPod with very little fuzz. And there are billions of DVD's in the world as we speak, and NONE of them work with the AppleTV.

Would iPod been such a success as it is if Apple had told people that "only contect downloaded from iTunes work with the iPod"? No, it would have been a dismal failure. But that is what they are saying when it comes to the AppleTV. Add to that the fact that only USA has video-content available in iTunes, then this begs the question: What am I, a person living in Finland, just supposed to do with this device?

Now, this situation might be rectified if Apple came up with a tool that lets the user convert his DVD's (with ALL the features!) to iTunes-compatible format. But MPAA will never allow that. Hell will freeze before that happens.

By limiting themselves to MP4 on the Apple TV, Apple has alienated a lot of potential customers. They should not ignore the wealth of content out there in other formats. This isn't going to change for a very long time. Why not broaden the appeal of the box by supporting more formats? Apple wants to grow their iTMS revenue. Video will be more lucrative than $0.99/song. Apple doesn't want Apple TV customers getting video anywhere else, be it on DVD or ripped from a DVD. I understand their strategy. However, I think it's flawed. If Apple TV included a DVD player, customers would still buy DVDs. Apple is trying to change the way people obtain content, so providing old-school hard media support would undermine those efforts.

I'm not actually sure that do you agree or disagree with me here....

 

[macintel4me]

Apple TV, network drive and sync'ing

If I have a network drive with all my iTunes content (i.e. NAS) connected to an AirPort Extreme basestation, can Apple TV do the the syncing without my Mac Pro being turned on??

 

[GregA]

If I have a network drive with all my iTunes content (i.e. NAS) connected to an AirPort Extreme basestation, can Apple TV do the the syncing without my Mac Pro being turned on??

No. Syncing or streaming is done to iTunes. Where it is stored is irrelevant.

 

[elreudo]

wouldn't it be cool if......

wouldn't it be cool if we were all missing the point! What if there is a major upgrade to iTunes where we can rip DVD's to the moveis section of the iTunes library. We know the tools are already there to do so, what with Handbrake, MTR, not to mention TV with EyeTV 2.0, so there is nothing to stop us doing it ourselves (aside the slightly rediculous fact that we're not allowed to backup our own media that we've paid for!). What if iTunes could rip the DVD and in the process protect the file so as it was only viewable on iPod, Apple TV, iTunes etc (much like TV shows bought from the iTMS).

On another note I wouldn't be suprised if the iTMS content was updaded to include some 720P movies/tv when the device is actually released (surely Disney/Pixar films if nothing else). I also think that some other country stores will get a library of TV and Movies to coincide with the actualy release.

I for one got the feeling that Mr Jobs had such a focus on the iPhone he didn't want to go into the other stuff too much!

Pint glass half-full????

 

[Evangelion]

wouldn't it be cool if we were all missing the point! What if there is a major upgrade to iTunes where we can rip DVD's to the moveis section of the iTunes library. We know the tools are already there to do so, what with Handbrake, MTR, not to mention TV with EyeTV 2.0, so there is nothing to stop us doing it ourselves (aside the slightly rediculous fact that we're not allowed to backup our own media that we've paid for!).

Well, for starters: It's illegal. Secondly, HAndBrake and other still don't encode the special features or subtitles. And subtitles are very, very important.

 

[Porco]

Well, for starters: It's illegal. Secondly, HAndBrake and other still don't encode the special features or subtitles. And subtitles are very, very important.

You can encode subtitles in Handbrake, but they are encoded in the video (i.e. you can't turn them off). I know this because I've done it.

And as long as the the special features are just video titles so I'm not sure what you mean about that either.

As for the legality issue, I think it's one that needs addressing. I believe that here in the UK it will soon be completely legal to rip your own CDs and I am hoping they extend that to DVDs along the same principles of 'fair use' and 'media-shifting'. You're right of course that as things stand it's technically illegal, and DVDs have the added legal complication of encryption, but as the post above said, 'wouldn't it be cool if...' !

 

[plinden]

No. It will work with "g" or a wired connection

I spoke to one of the demoers at MacWorld on Friday, who confirmed this with one of their Apple TV engineers. Although G will work, you'll notice dropped frames. And I've been away from MacRumors for a week, so don't know if this has been mentioned already, but standard definition TVs definitely will not work. It must be an ED or HD TV.

 

[rtdunham]

So, fact remains that AppleTV practically only plays back content from iTunes Store.

Evangelion, can't i view my iMovie content using the appleTV? Lots of us have used iMovie to product lots of content that would be nice to view so easily. Doesn't appleTV permit that?

terry

 

[balamw]

No. Syncing or streaming is done to iTunes. Where it is stored is irrelevant.

It really wouldn't be hard for the Airport to provide its own daapd server. You can already run firefly server on a Linysys NSLU2. I'm waiting to see what the reality is before considering the Airport Extreme even though it does sound like a better overall value than the NSLU2.

Evangelion, can't i view my iMovie content using the appleTV? Lots of us have used iMovie to product lots of content that would be nice to view so easily. Doesn't appleTV permit that?

You should be able to view any iMovie projects that are exported to MPEG-4 within the specs of the AppleTV.

B

 

[Porco]

Evangelion, can't i view my iMovie content using the appleTV? Lots of us have used iMovie to product lots of content that would be nice to view so easily. Doesn't appleTV permit that?

terry

According to Apple's specs, it seems to indicate you can play MPEG-4, H.264 and Protected H.264. If you could only play iTunes-purchased content, then why mention unprotected H.264? Movie Trailers? So how would it differentiate between Apple-hosted trailers and any old video file you like that's in the right format? And why mention MPEG-4?

It seems clear to me that AppleTV will be quite happy playing any video file you drop into your iTunes library the conforms to the specs Apple state on their web site. Which means lots of good things, such as converting files through say, iSquint, or indeed iTunes itself, that aren't AppleTV friendly to start with.

From: Apple.com/appletv/specs.html (my bold for emphasis)

Video formats supported: H.264 and protected H.264 (from iTunes Store): 640 by 480, 30 fps, LC version of Baseline Profile; 320 by 240, 30 fps, Baseline profile up to Level 1.3; 1280 by 720, 24 fps, Progressive Main Profile. MPEG-4: 640 by 480, 30 fps, Simple Profile

If it's like the iPod in terms of video playback, then you'll find the resolutions are, roughly speaking, upper pixel limits, i.e. 640x480=307200 pixels, so something like 720x400 (288000 pixels) might well work too.

 

[sjk]

Apple should make iTunes sharing a Sharing service in System Preferences. That way it starts up when the computer boots and the user doesn't have to leave iTunes running.

Even a background service launched as a Login Item would be better than having to leave iTunes running in order for streaming to work. That would be similar to Elgato's now-discontinued EyeHome, which doesn't require EyeTV be running to access its recordings.

Of course, the Apple TV does include a hard drive, allowing you to store content locally. In that case, iTunes doesn't need to be running.

Apparently Apple TV requires an internet connection for both streaming and synching operation. Unless that's only for FairPlay content it means a LAN/WLAN has to be available when watching or listening to content that's already been synched with ATV. ATV's HD would be a better cache if at least any unprotected content stored on it could be viewed/heard while disconnected from a network.

I certainly agree with many points already made about ATV being crippled without support for more "legacy" content (by Apple's definition?). I've got a fair sized collection of EyeTV recordings still in their original MPEG-2 transport stream format. They can be exported relatively easily/quickly as MPEG-2 program streams that iTunes, QuickTime, and QT-compatible apps can handle. But ATV? Nope (AFAWK). Elgato has already acknowledged that limitation in a recent FAQ, suggesting recordings be exported to an ATV-compatible format …

Yesterday I exported a ~10-minute recording as H.264 on my wife's 1.25GHz eMac (where the EyeTV 200 lives) which took nearly an hour(!) That's longer than it takes to burn several longer recordings to a DVD-Video DVD-RW and drop that into the living room player upstairs. Or even better, immediately stream them over 802.11g to EyeHome, as I'd been doing before it died a few months ago.

EyeHome's UI is lame and the older Sigma decoder doesn't handle HD or H.264 like ATV. But at least it's compatible with my SDTV and much more pre-existing content than ATV. And EyeHome recognizes ~/Movies, including aliases to "media archive" folders on other volumes, with no trouble streaming DVD MPEG-2 video with DTS audio. I really don't care about ATV lacking a DVD player but its limited codec support is unforgivable.

Isn't it ironically disappointing how ATV isn't "bad" enough for some of us (myself included) because of its lack of legacy compatibility, while not being "good" enough for other people with higher quality HD components and content? It's almost as if ATV was designed more for EDTV than HDTV owners, while completely excluding SDTV owners. And content-wise, it sure seems like a forced (yet limited) iTunes Store lock-in with ATV that's just optional with iPod.

I'd hoped Apple TV would be a superior EyeHome replacement but so far it isn't living up to that. Do any ATV hardware specs (some still unconfirmed) preclude additional codec support with future software/firmware updates? Either way, it looks like SDTV owners are SOL.

 

[GregA]

I certainly agree with many points already made about ATV being crippled without support for more "legacy" content (by Apple's definition?). <snip> Yesterday I exported a ~10-minute recording as H.264 on my wife's 1.25GHz eMac (where the EyeTV 200 lives) which took nearly an hour(!)

I agree, I'd like to play more formats.

However, if you export to MPEG4 (instead of MPEG4-10/h264), it will export MUCH quicker (and current Macs are quicker, too).

EyeTV is an interesting case. Ideally, you would be able to play stuff from EyeTV, or even stream live TV directly from EyeTV through your Mac to the AppleTV. I wonder if iTunes (and EyeTV) could convert an MPEG2 on the fly and stream it to the AppleTV (... it'd slow down the Mac of course)

wouldn't it be cool if we were all missing the point! What if there is a major upgrade to iTunes where we can rip DVD's to the moveis section of the iTunes library.

I guess I've got a similar question for DVDs. Could Apple be planning on letting you put a DVD in your Mac and watch it via AppleTV? If they are, they'd need to transcode on the fly. Can the Apple Remote handle DVD menus?

Evangelion, can't i view my iMovie content using the appleTV? Lots of us have used iMovie to product lots of content that would be nice to view so easily. Doesn't appleTV permit that?

I need that feature, exporting to MPEG4 or h264 will work but takes time. But playing the raw DV directly isn't an option since 1hour of video is 14GB - about 32Mbps - which 802.11g won't handle.

I hope Apple does something to allow this. Perhaps iMovie will automatically make a h264 version? (or on the fly conversion?).

 

[balamw]

Can the Apple Remote handle DVD menus?

Front Row has a DVD player which works fine. What this means for the Apple TV is anyone's guess.

B

 

[Peace]

Front Row has a DVD player which works fine. What this means for the Apple TV is anyone's guess.

B

Looking over the previews of AppleTV I've noticed there is no icon for a DVD.
Could mean they've removed the DVD part from the new Front Row or there's a different version of Front Row for the AppleTV.