Apple TV 'Take 2' HD Image Quality

[LethalWolfe]

When I got up and walked away, the real world looked blurry and dull for the next hour.

I'm pretty sure that's called "eye strain."

I really don't understand why people would go for the lower standard. If you guys want stay in the past I'm looking towards the future. Right now 1080P is where it's at but soon we'll be at even even higher resolution. Bring me 1440P!

For the same reason that people chose cell phones over land lines even though land lines have much better call quality. Or the same reason that people get songs off the internet instead of the much higher quality CDs from the store. Or the same reason people get movies and TV shows off the internet instead of the much higher quality versions from the store. It's convenient and the quality is "good enough."


Lethal

 

[fivepoint]

This is laughable. No offense but it honestly seems your friend isn't into Audio/Visual as much as you say he say's he is. Screen size plays a big factor also. 32" or smaller the the difference between a DVD upscaled vs a 1080P Blu-ray may not be as noticeable when comparing on a 42"+ HDTV. Either way the movie will still be a lot sharper with better color depth then what DVD offers. Now saying a DVD upscaled comes very close to Blu-ray sounds ignorant to me. I'm not saying all Blu-ray movies are created equal but honestly comparing say Pirates of the Caribbean on Blu-ray and DVD with a decent sized HDTV(42"+). Blu-ray wins hands down. DVD can't compete with the sharpness or color depth which Blu-ray offers.

As for everyone else on this forum saying 1080P is "dumb" or "a waste", "you can't see that much of a difference". Then do this simple test change your monitor resolution from 1208 x 720P to 1920 x 1080P and let me know what difference you see. Stuff look a little different? Thought so. That is unless you are on a monitor which is not capable of those resolutions. Sounds like a lot of people know a little bit about the subject but haven't really tested it out for themselves. I really don't understand why people would go for the lower standard. If you guys want stay in the past I'm looking towards the future. Right now 1080P is where it's at but soon we'll be at even even higher resolution. Bring me 1440P!

Not arguing here... just playing devil's advocate. So, if 1080P isn't going to be the highest in 5 years (or whatever) then why not pay HALF price right now for the 720P tv, and upgrade it when the next resolution format comes out?

"Sit far enough away... and 420i looks damn good!"

 

[ayale99]

You have to remember what the AVERAGE person ownes. Not everyone has nice 50" screens or home theaters...

AppleTV is for the masses - the average 40" or smaller 720p sets.

Exactly. Some people in this forum have a lot more money to spend on big HDTVs than others. I'm a mere mortal myself. Guess I'll have to make do with 720p. AppleTV is for the masses and the masses don't have giant 1080p HDTVs.
Something to keep in mind folks. They should make a gold-plated 1080p version for you rich guys to buy.

 

[killmoms]

Looks like blu ray wins again and just yesterday I get an email from netflix saying that they are dumping HD DVD and going with blu ray. Guess my xbox 360 hd player is going to wind up in the garbage soon enough.

Why? It still plays any HD DVDs you've bought just fine. I don't understand the "throw away a dying tech" mentality. Just keep using it until it doesn't work. If the investment you have in discs is still greater than the cost of a player, why not keep using it? Heck, I'd still buy HD DVDs for stuff that's still not releasing in Blu-ray, because the player still works fine. Plus it'll be an even longer wait for Universal/Paramount to go Blu-ray and release all the stuff they've already put on HD DVD only on Blu-ray... so why not?

 

[hayesk]

no idea why they sell it in canada, no movie rentals, and you can buy shows, but the shows all suck and theres only a few to begin with.

Here's why Canadian's would buy an AppleTV
- they use an eyeTV connected to their Mac in their office to record shows, but want to watch them on their TV
- they like the shows on iTunes - Corner Gas and Little Mosque on the Prairie are way better than any of the sitcoms on the US networks right now, or even back in the fall when there wasn't a writer's strike. You may not like them, but others do.
- you can view your photos on TV when your family comes over
- when you have a party, people can choose music they want to listen to without having to go through all of your CDs (although I wish the AppleTV had "Play Next in Party Shuffle" like in iTunes)
- you can easily browse movie trailers before going out to a movie
- you can view video podcasts on TV instead of on your iPod

I'm sure others can come up with more. Movie rentals are not the only function of this box.

 

[GQB]

I have a 6Mbps DSL connection, and it took around 5 hours for me to download Die Hard in HD. It gave a notification that it was ready to play after about 3 1/2 hours of downloading. I went to sleep instead, and plan on watching it this weekend.

For jollys, I used Speakeasy to check my upload and download speeds. I'm in the SF Bay area, and found a big difference between testing against a server in SF vs one in LA.

Anyone know where the iTunes Store servers are located?

 

[GQB]

...says a guy who obviously hasn't sat down and watched Ratatouille on Blu-Ray on a 65" plasma.

When I got up and walked away, the real world looked blurry and dull for the next hour.

And most people watch more SD content than HD, even if they have HD.
For them, any quality higher than HD will be seen as outstanding.

Very few people have 65" monitors (or will have Blu-Ray for a loooonnng time), and videophile standards are a poor indicator of popular perception.

Sounds like you have a cool system tho'.

 

[GQB]

I've downloaded some HD TV and movies on XBOX Live and I'd say it' looks comparable to the Apple TV pics. Definately better than upscaled DVD. Somewhat Better than Comcast HD because there is too many artifacts in live HD TV.

Still on the fence for Apple TV mainly because I really want a TIVO like option. If it had that, it would be a nobrainer for me.

I've used EyeTV on my Mac. Not sure why they couldn't just implement something like that...

Here's what I've not been able to figure out about EyeTV-type solutions...
Exactly what does this allow me to do with a cable connection?
- I know it can't do premium content (HBO etc). Even if ATV implemented cable card, that's been pretty much a flop in the market because of the need to accommodate the various cable providers.
- But beyond premium services, there's also the different levels of non-premium content. Basic service, Basic digital, Extended digital, etc.

Can EyeTV do everything EXCEPT Premium, or only a subset of the other cable flavors?

Any DRV solution that doesn't give me everything that the (admittedly crappy) Comcast DVR does (for $12/mo) isn't going to compete.

And that's why Apple isn't going to do DVR. They want to replace Cable/DVR, not support it.
Apple wants to be the 'ala carte' solution that everyone claims they want.

 

[whatever]

...says a guy who obviously hasn't sat down and watched Ratatouille on Blu-Ray on a 65" plasma.

When I got up and walked away, the real world looked blurry and dull for the next hour.

I often wondered, due to the nature of animation, does HD really make a difference? I mean come on, it's not like the non existent shadows or reflections are going to magically appear? So I would be surprised if a movie such as Ratatouille, The Simpsons or South Park would look any different in HD or regular DVD.

 

[killmoms]

I often wondered, due to the nature of animation, does HD really make a difference? I mean come on, it's not like the non existent shadows or reflections are going to magically appear? So I would be surprised if a movie such as Ratatouille, The Simpsons or South Park would look any different in HD or regular DVD.

...Which version of Ratatouille were you watching that didn't have shadows or reflections?

South Park, probably not so much, but there's a LOT of detail packed into Pixar's movies, especially the more recent ones (and ESPECIALLY Ratatouille).

 

[dashiel]

As for everyone else on this forum saying 1080P is "dumb" or "a waste", "you can't see that much of a difference". Then do this simple test change your monitor resolution from 1208 x 720P to 1920 x 1080P and let me know what difference you see. Stuff look a little different? Thought so. That is unless you are on a monitor which is not capable of those resolutions. Sounds like a lot of people know a little bit about the subject but haven't really tested it out for themselves. I really don't understand why people would go for the lower standard. If you guys want stay in the past I'm looking towards the future. Right now 1080P is where it's at but soon we'll be at even even higher resolution. Bring me 1440P!

apples and oranges comparison. LCD panels have a "fixed" pixel ratio, changing from their native resolution to anything above or below that causes serious image degradation.

1080p on paper is superior to 720p, on larger screen it's visibly better. on anything below a 42" set the difference in practical usage (e.g. watching a movie, not comparing pixels side-by-side) is indiscernible.

 

[GQB]

Amen Brother! Who cares?! "Wah Wah It's not 1080p!"
Once you actually sit down and get into a movie, your not going to notice 720p or 1080p difference. I just can't imagine people sitting there watching a movie and thinking, "I can't follow the story line becasue my darn picture isn't 1080p!" Be happy with what you've got. 1080p will come.

And one more thing...
People need to chill about not having DVR in the Appletv Why the hell would Apple put a DVR in AND sell the tv show content on Itunes???? Anybody think of that? Yes, Apple please give me the option of buying a TV show from you OR recording it on your box. Which one do you think people would go for?

It's a business model people. Think about it.

That said, I love my AppleTv.

I was so excited to finally get content in the form of a lot of ESPN figure skating coverage this year that would get my wife to understand how cool my expensive HD stuff was.
So when, after noticing that she'd stopped recording her skating in HD and instead was DRV-ing off over SD, I asked her why.
Her answer?
1) the only real advantage HD gave her was the ability to read the brand off of the skaters' skates
2) HD took up so much space on the DVR that she preferred to not have to delete it as quickly to make room for other stuff.
3) she watches skating for overall movement (and in the case of movies, plot), not 'in the room with you sharpness.'

And this is a woman who's a successful ceramic artist, ergo no slouch in the visual requirements arena.

Just saying that despite the protest from videophiles, the market will be made on the basis of convenience of use and portability, not necessarily on 'best' quality.

 

[notjustjay]

Exactly. Some people in this forum have a lot more money to spend on big HDTVs than others. I'm a mere mortal myself. Guess I'll have to make do with 720p. AppleTV is for the masses and the masses don't have giant 1080p HDTVs.
Something to keep in mind folks. They should make a gold-plated 1080p version for you rich guys to buy.

2 years ago I would be nodding in agreement with you.

But today I can walk into Wal-Mart and buy a 42" 1080p LCD TV for $900.

By comparison, I remember helping my dad shop for a TV about 7 years ago, he paid $888 for a 32" CRT. It's not huge, and probably very comparable to what "the masses" own already.

 

[jaw04005]

Why? It still plays any HD DVDs you've bought just fine. I don't understand the "throw away a dying tech" mentality.

Simple. Many people who purchased the HD DVD add-on don't buy HD DVDs—they rent them only.

The same can be said for Blu-ray and even regular DVD.

 

[nagromme]

I rented an SD movie, and even that was just a bit better than DVD. Which was NOT true of TV shows I have bought last year--they were a bit less than DVD quality (though still good compared to what I'm used to from TV broadcasts).

By the specs, the SD rental had a peculiar width of 853--better than DVD's typical 720. But being "ultra-widescreen," vertical pixel size was smaller than it would be with a different shape of movie/TV.

(BTW, I can't speak for AppleTV--that product never interested me since my Mac IS my TV--but the movie rental experience from iTunes is very slick and easy. I kind of wish I did have a TV, because streaming music and album art to AppleTV via AirTunes sounds pretty cool.)

 

[ayale99]

2 years ago I would be nodding in agreement with you.

But today I can walk into Wal-Mart and buy a 42" 1080p LCD TV for $900.

By comparison, I remember helping my dad shop for a TV about 7 years ago, he paid $888 for a 32" CRT. It's not huge, and probably very comparable to what "the masses" own already.

Very True. But I'm willing to bet that the 1080p videophiles in these forums would laugh at your Walmart version. I've looked at the HD's in Walmart and they all look horrible. Can you really trust some of those random brands they stock at Wallyworld?

 

[whatever]

...Which version of Ratatouille were you watching that didn't have shadows or reflections?

South Park, probably not so much, but there's a LOT of detail packed into Pixar's movies, especially the more recent ones (and ESPECIALLY Ratatouille).

Okay, I hate to break it to you, but animation, be it computer animated or hand drawn animation is not real. So you better stop rolling your eyes before they get stuck.

When you see the details in an animated film, it's man made, put there on purpose to make you think it looks real. I have nothing against that, it's a true artform (I wished Ratatouille was nominated for an Oscar for Movie of the Year!).

But to truly see the strengths of HD (720p, 1080i or 1080p) you need to be watching something live. Baseball looks great.

 

[LethalWolfe]

2 years ago I would be nodding in agreement with you.

But today I can walk into Wal-Mart and buy a 42" 1080p LCD TV for $900.

Resolution is not the same as image quality, and not all TVs are built the same. I'd wager a mid-to-hi end 720p TV will produce a better looking image than a low end 1080p TV. Of course this type of conversation always skips over the fact that the HD content that ends up in homes is very compressed and most likely didn't originate as 1080p to begin with. It's a bit like arguing over which high performance tires to put on your 100k mile, slighly rusted Buick.

I'm waiting for people to talk about how sh*tty the cutting between 720p and 1080p looked in "Cloverfield".


Lethal

 

[ezekielrage_99]

But it's still not powerful enough to play my downloaded 1080p mkv files, so screw it.

I hope you don't me to literally screw the Apple TV

 

[shawnce]

Okay, I hate to break it to you, but animation, be it computer animated or hand drawn animation is not real. So you better stop rolling your eyes before they get stuck.

When you see the details in an animated film, it's man made, put there on purpose to make you think it looks real. I have nothing against that, it's a true artform (I wished Ratatouille was nominated for an Oscar for Movie of the Year!).

But to truly see the strengths of HD (720p, 1080i or 1080p) you need to be watching something live. Baseball looks great.

No offense but your post doesn't make much sense...

If the source material for a movie has a high-level of image detail (naturally captured or artificially generated) it can and will benefit from being viewed in HD. Additionally animated flicks can be rendered at higher levels of detail then any camera can capture of the real world (it is just a matter of rendering time / model detail). Also since no lenses are involved scenes can be rendered with artificially deep fields of focus.

Anyway animated flicks these days have very high-level of detail in hair/fur, skin, etc. and as a result can be a very good way to see differences between 720p and 1080p.

 

[benpatient]

Okay, I hate to break it to you, but animation, be it computer animated or hand drawn animation is not real. So you better stop rolling your eyes before they get stuck.

When you see the details in an animated film, it's man made, put there on purpose to make you think it looks real. I have nothing against that, it's a true artform (I wished Ratatouille was nominated for an Oscar for Movie of the Year!).

But to truly see the strengths of HD (720p, 1080i or 1080p) you need to be watching something live. Baseball looks great.

you're missing the point...animation, precisely because it is NOT real, can look better in HD than real-life can, at least in an artistic sense. Each pixel of Ratatouille was massaged with care. When you see it in DVD, it looks great. When you see it on Apple TV in HD, or on XBOX Live HD download, it looks better, because more of the original pixels can be displayed "as intended." When you see it in 1080p, you're getting that many more of the original pixels...none of which were throw-away pixels.

Some day, a bigger format will be released, and the full resolution of digital film will be available in the home...with a big enough, quality screen and player, there will be literally no difference between what you see in a great theater, and what you see at home.

Most "real" stuff is subject to the limitations of recording media (film resolution, lens limitations, focus, depth of field, etc). Yes, it's "more" real, but that doesn't mean it will look better. In fact, Pixar has shown that it will usually not look as good. Pixar isn't subject to any limitations other than those of time, technology, and creative ability. I'd say they have all three quite well controlled.

Look, i'm a huge fan of HD resurrections of old films. I've been watching lots of old Cary Grant and Hitchcock films on HDNet Movies the last few months, and they are truly beautiful and artistic and wonderful.

But visually, just for gut-wrenching, jaw-dropping visual spendor, nothing can beat animation. And right now, nothing can beat animation at 1080p. It's top shelf.

 

[anonmill]

The $5 price

I know alot of people are hung up on the TV not supporting 1080P, I agree it would be nice if it supported it. But I have a 37" 720P TV which more than gets the job done. I have seen the nice Blu-Ray/1080P setups at the stores/friends and agree they are better than my set up. But the bottom line for me is I can't afford them right now. And when I look at all of my (many) DVDs and think about how many I have watched multiple times it comes down to this:

$5 for a very good (Much? Better than DVD by all reports I have scene) quality video I can easily get when I want it.

$25-$30 For a Discs I MAY watch 2 or 3 times

I already own the Apple TV and have been getting tons of great use out of it even before this update when combined with my eyeTV. My wife loves it, and that is saying a lot. I will eventually upgrade to 1080p, but the reality is I am getting more bang for my buck with these HD rentals, and with young kids (and not having to go anywhere to get content) the convenience is unmatched. Other than my kids DVDs there are probably only 5-10 DVDs I own that I have watched more than 2 times.

 

[avkills]

I am in the A/V industry; and it is quite obvious to anyone who understands frame size that 1080p is going to blow 720p out of the water.

However, like what has been said; watching on a smaller set less than 40" is probably not going to yield much visible difference; the difference will immediately become apparent when you jump to a large set or when projected on screen.

Folsom makes some excellent scalers but I'd be hard pressed to find anyone who could not tell the difference between a upscaled 480p Anamorphic DVD against any HD source whether it is 720p, 1080i, 1080p.

-mark

 

[thirdeyeopen666]

...Which version of Ratatouille were you watching that didn't have shadows or reflections?

South Park, probably not so much, but there's a LOT of detail packed into Pixar's movies, especially the more recent ones (and ESPECIALLY Ratatouille).

Funny you mention it. I didn't think South Park would be a big deal in HD... Xbox Live gave away a free HD episode about a year ago. The quality was really outstanding compared to cable. Very bright and the lines were all sharp and well defined.

 

[DarkRail]

Okay, I hate to break it to you, but animation, be it computer animated or hand drawn animation is not real. So you better stop rolling your eyes before they get stuck.

When you see the details in an animated film, it's man made, put there on purpose to make you think it looks real. I have nothing against that, it's a true artform (I wished Ratatouille was nominated for an Oscar for Movie of the Year!).

But to truly see the strengths of HD (720p, 1080i or 1080p) you need to be watching something live. Baseball looks great.

FYI- RATATOUILLE is the most impressive content my 1080p system has ever seen.

I've watched many Blu-Ray discs since I got my 50" Kuro. Yes, I've even watched some baseball. But the rich detail in Ratatouille is what makes me proud of all the money I spent on the system. You see every hair on every rat. Background rats that seemed like mere blurs before are now so clear that they add emotional depth to the story.

Nothing against baseball, but it's hard for me to imagine a more satisfying HD experience than Ratatouille on Blu-Ray.