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Apple Tweaks Taiwanese App Store Terms to Formalize 7-Day Return Policy
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Yes. When a developer submits an app in the AppStore, the developer chooses which countries to place the app for sale. The developer could easily avoid Taiwan, which I suspect most developers will if this return policy is abused.
Sure they can, it's just a matter of unchecking a checkbox in iTunes Connect. But why block all the potential legitimate sales opportunities, just for a small percentage of cheap asses. It doesn't really cost anything to include the app in the market anyway.
Even with the 7-day return policy you still have to write to Apple customer service to ask for refunds like how it is now. If I want to be cheap, why bother going through this when I can just simply jailbreak and install pirate version of the apps.
Well then you'd be a fool not to just jailbrake the phone and then take whatever apps you want! Your logic is flawed.
This, but most people don't understand since they are not developers. If Apple did this everywhere the app store would literally collapse. I know some people will say "well that forces developers to make good apps!" No, it doesn't. What it does allow is for any app, good or bad to get pirated much easier or in the case of games, someone downloads, gets their fix, and never buys it. What incentive would developers have to develop for the platform?
none of it is reasonable unless there is a mechanism to forcibly delete the app from the phone, and even then it wouldn't include backups/manual copying. The article suggests that it's on the honor system. Yeah.. uh huh.
Removed taiwan from my approved countries...
Removed taiwan from my approved countries...
We should all move to Taiwan and download games, play them and then return them. We could work like slaves in one of the Foxconn plants and use our apps free for a week.
With a little bit of effort the infrastructure could be extended to allow refunds if less than seven days and less than one hour of usage. Sometimes you don't get a chance to run an app right after you download it.
that's a pretty clever solution.
Apple is probably not fighting it since Google already is, if google wins the court decision, apple can easily repeal the same applications on them.
7 days is a ridiculous amount of time. 1 or 2 hours is enough time to tell if you would like to keep an App, a 24 hour window would be generous enough.
Perhaps Apple could make some sort of bargain, a 30 minute trial of their apps so that when the user purchases they may no longer return it since they had access to free trials.
It still kinda sucks for developers, but then again this would cause competition and better quality apps.
So, what about this scenario then:
Prior to the launch of iPad2, I purchased 1stVideo for iPad for an upcoming band related project.
I purchased an iPad2, and got iMovie, but enjoyed being able to have 2 video timelines, which suited my needs perfectly. I'm filming some short, multi-angle live recordings of band rehearsals using an iPhone 3GS, an iPhone4, the iPad2, and a Flip MINOHD.
Now, I shoot everything, and start editing. This is a good 2 months after the purchase of the app, as basically up until that point I'd had no need to use it. I'd extensively researched which camcorder/formats iPad2 could play and render, and the MINO HD works fine (tested in iMovie.) I spend a good 4 hours editing together a nice little video. It plays fine, renders to preview fine, audio works fine. All looking good.
I go to export, and it doesn't work. I contact the dev, they respond by saying the MINO HD isn't supported. Except that it is, as I've rendered a few videos via iMovie on iPad2 and it works fine. Plus, if it's not supported, how come 1stVideo can play the file, edit the file, and render to preview?
I'm about to request a refund, but it's now several months after purchase of the app. It was bought on impulse weeks in advance of my actual need of it, and not opened until that point.
Why shouldn't I be entitled to a refund on that? Why should there be a limit of any kind on refunds. As long as you have a valid reason for claiming it, that option should be open. Yes, there'll be abuse, but there'll always be abuse. Those of us who've shelled out £17.99 for an app that doesn't do what it's supposed to shouldn't suffer because a group of people with unrealistic levels of self-entitlement want to get some free stuff.
Provided Apple keeps a history of refunds for each Apple ID, and can therefore monitor those clearly abusing the system, there's no reason to not have a refund system. None at all.
Prior to the launch of iPad2, I purchased 1stVideo for iPad for an upcoming band related project.
I purchased an iPad2, and got iMovie, but enjoyed being able to have 2 video timelines, which suited my needs perfectly. I'm filming some short, multi-angle live recordings of band rehearsals using an iPhone 3GS, an iPhone4, the iPad2, and a Flip MINOHD.
Now, I shoot everything, and start editing. This is a good 2 months after the purchase of the app, as basically up until that point I'd had no need to use it. I'd extensively researched which camcorder/formats iPad2 could play and render, and the MINO HD works fine (tested in iMovie.) I spend a good 4 hours editing together a nice little video. It plays fine, renders to preview fine, audio works fine. All looking good.
I go to export, and it doesn't work. I contact the dev, they respond by saying the MINO HD isn't supported. Except that it is, as I've rendered a few videos via iMovie on iPad2 and it works fine. Plus, if it's not supported, how come 1stVideo can play the file, edit the file, and render to preview?
I'm about to request a refund, but it's now several months after purchase of the app. It was bought on impulse weeks in advance of my actual need of it, and not opened until that point.
Why shouldn't I be entitled to a refund on that? Why should there be a limit of any kind on refunds. As long as you have a valid reason for claiming it, that option should be open. Yes, there'll be abuse, but there'll always be abuse. Those of us who've shelled out £17.99 for an app that doesn't do what it's supposed to shouldn't suffer because a group of people with unrealistic levels of self-entitlement want to get some free stuff.
Provided Apple keeps a history of refunds for each Apple ID, and can therefore monitor those clearly abusing the system, there's no reason to not have a refund system. None at all.
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I wonder what would happen if a lot of developers did the same, especially the big names.
I've often NOT bought an app because I was afraid it wasn't worth the money. I think you should have some time, weather a few hours, or a few days. To get the most out of me they would have to make it 24 hours.
That's a legitimate business issue, and can't be covered by laws like this, regardless. So, app devs should have a policy to cover that. Apple can't dictate as the retailer, govts shouldn't dictate with laws, that should be down to consumer and author.
So, you want to discourage developers from developing more apps for you?
Easily. A whole bunch of developers are probably analyzing their sales reports, and will just uncheck the box for availability of their app in all countries where returns are a significant percentage of sales.
Our Government
Our government, if you're in the United States, is a representative democracy where you elect (thus the democracy) a member of the legislature who represents the geographical area you're in (thus the representative). These legislators then pass laws that are implemented and enforced by an executive branch, and violations are handled in the judicial branch.
There's no "government" out there looking out for bad things that might happen to you and rectifying the situation by forcing others to do things. If you want to require downloadable software to be returnable, you have two choices:
1. Elect someone who agrees with you, then get a law passed.
2. Start your own company, let's call it ApplePlus, hire 50,000 people, develop some software and some beautiful hardware, then when you sell the software offer a free trial period.
Our government, if you're in the United States, is a representative democracy where you elect (thus the democracy) a member of the legislature who represents the geographical area you're in (thus the representative). These legislators then pass laws that are implemented and enforced by an executive branch, and violations are handled in the judicial branch.
There's no "government" out there looking out for bad things that might happen to you and rectifying the situation by forcing others to do things. If you want to require downloadable software to be returnable, you have two choices:
1. Elect someone who agrees with you, then get a law passed.
2. Start your own company, let's call it ApplePlus, hire 50,000 people, develop some software and some beautiful hardware, then when you sell the software offer a free trial period.
This is good in theory, but it will need some tweaks to minimize abuse. But having some type of recourse for refunds with software would really be nice. Shelling out big bucks for certain titles with no recourse if the software does not work as advertised pretty much sucks.
Nope; in one case (making use of the mandatory return period offered by the government) you'd be operating completely within the rules that have been set up to regulate commerce within your jurisdiction. You would not be exposing yourself to any potential accusations of legal wrongdoing. Hence, it's a (shortsighted) win-win.
In the other case (stealing apps without permission) you'd be operating outside the rules that have been set up for commerce within your jurisdiction, and hence you'd be exposing yourself to potential civil and criminal liability. Hence, there is an obvious trade-off to consider, with respect to potential threats to your personal wealth and liberty, before taking this action.
Granted, the first case is only a win-win for a shortsighted person, because over long term they'd find fewer and fewer app developers will be willing to do business in their jurisdiction because they are losing out on sales revenue. So over the long term, they'll pay for the short-term perceived advantage through the long-term disadvantage of a severely degraded variety of apps available for sale. But that same outcome would also happen if the other alternative (app piracy) became excessively widespread too. So overall this point is a wash.
Which means, overall, the distinction between the two cases stems clearly from the fact that one of them can have potential negative legal consequences, and hence is very clearly more foolish than the other.
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Fortunately, most people are honest and WILL pay for what they want and like.
What a return policy WOULD do is STOP piracy. People would then be able to buy things without fear of purchasing a bad app that they can't get a refund on.
It would also help build up "premium" apps, as people would no longer be in fear of spending say $20 on an app and have it end up being terrible. They would be able to get their money back if they didn't like it.
Thats the reason why we had the race to the bottom as far as app pricing goes. People are more willing to "lose" $1 than they are $20. Its not that difficult for a person to swallow a $1 loss on a bad app. But $20? That could go to many better things.
But, again, if there was a return policy, people would be willing to give those more expensive apps a shot. And, again, the vast majority of people ARE honest and DO pay for what they like and want. So if Rockstar, for example, makes a good iOS GTA game and charges $20 for it, people will be willing to give it a shot if they know that they won't be out $20 if they don't like it.
And for the developers that live off of scamming people out of $1 or $2 because its hard to get refunds, their business models can die a quick painful death for all I care. The App Store needs to worry significantly less about quantity and far more about quality. It doesn't matter that theres tens of thousands of apps for the iPad when all but only a small handful are decent. Same goes for the iPhone. Hundreds of thousands of apps, but only a very small percentage are even worth considering. Institute a return policy to get rid of the vultures that feed off the ability to rip people off and allow people to legitimately request refunds for apps that don't live up to expectations and everyone wins. Good developers stay and thrive and strive to make better products and consumers end up being willing to part with more cash if they know they can obtain a refund in the even the app is not good. I know I'd spend significantly more on the app store and be willing to take more risks on app purchases if not for the fact that I can't get a refund. There's already been a few times where I had to go back and forth with iTunes support to finally get a refund for bad apps. It shouldn't be that way.
I don't see why the App Store should be exempt from refunds. I can get a refund practically everything else in life, including PC and Xbox 360 games. Yes, you can get refunds on computer software. You generally just have to contact the original publisher within the return window for the store and they'll have you mail your opened copy of the software to them and they'll either refund you or send you a sealed copy that you can return to the store where you originally purchased it. I've gotten refunds on software and games this way. So why should the App Store be any different?
We should have something like this in the UK. Multiple times I have bought an App, downloaded and installed it, then within 2 minutes of its first run I've realised it's crap / doesn't do what I wanted it to.
Question is how long to allow a refund... 7-days seems a bit long and you nodoubt will have some people buying games and completing them within 7-days and then getting a refund. Something like 24-hours would seem more sensible to me.
Question is how long to allow a refund... 7-days seems a bit long and you nodoubt will have some people buying games and completing them within 7-days and then getting a refund
. Something like 24-hours would seem more sensible to me.
Well, it's amazing then that Amazon's Kindle return policy has not hurt the Kindle store... You have more than enough time to read a book the size of the bible and can still get a full refund for it.
The fact simply is that Apple's "no refunds" policy is extraordinarily customer hostile and that every country should have laws that protect the consumers in a similar way as Taiwan obviously does it.
This strikes me as a bit ad hominem. Consumer-oriented regulation of the market is not beyond ridiculous. Perhaps 7 days is too long, although some apps (not games) are difficult to compare to other apps in a short period of time. 1 to 2 hours won't cut it with some apps because there is upfront cost in making the app robust and useful.
What is ridiculous is zero refund policies. Zero refund policies play a cynical gotcha game with consumers and ratings, just like many in this thread have noted, do not ultimately determine a useful app for everyone. Three star apps exist that are good. Rating systems often pull responses from only a subset of the population (see Yelp, Amazon, etc).
Just because something is digital does not exempt it from laws that protect consumers. If software developers can't handle this, they shouldn't be in the business of selling software. We can't protect everyone, but there is no justifiable reason to protect only creators/sellers at the expense of everyone else. There is a balance; it's not easy to find and it must be re-evaluated.
I don't understand people who expect buyers to deal with "market conditions" but expect the government to protect them from competition, backlash or their own questionable behavior.
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