That's right, fraud is fraud. However, you can be sure this is actually far removed from fraud and nothing but an attention grabbing headline.
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Apple Under Investigation for $1.3 Billion Italian Tax Fraud
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That's right, fraud is fraud. However, you can be sure this is actually far removed from fraud and nothing but an attention grabbing headline.
I hope Ireland finally changes their law so Apple has to pay some taxes...
And thumbsup for italy.
And thumbsup for italy.
Agreed - I love Italy - lived there for six months this year. But they have their own way of governing - which is incomprehensible to the rest of us. Basically, church and mafia rule. I think they even collect protection money from shop owners. There are surprisingly few foreign chain stores even in Rome and Florence. Apple's too big not to target.
If they owe tax they owe tax and not paying it is fraud. Otherwise they can feel free to stop operating in the country.
ROFLOL. Reality check, eh?
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When YOU are going bankrupt, YOU will do anything to pay the bills.
- Walter White
Thank you. Excellent summation.
In the long run I hope "we" (as in "the civilized world") will get rid of loopholes and tax havens.
In the short run, I just can't wrap my head around average Joes defending these practices. Just that, never said I'm a judge or Apple is guilty.
As for "nobody wanting to pay taxes", that's a cultural issue and repeating it like it's a given surely won't help. People should be reminded of what taxes pay for.
May I add, I have a feeling even perfectly legal tax avoiders are more likely to ALSO do tax evasion...it's like collecting naked pics of 18yo girls...if you got nothing to hide, just let the FBI check if any 17yo accidentally slipped in
Interesting that you bring up ethics to this discussion...... And in the same breath accuse 'the rest of the world' of having corrupt legal systems and eager to pick Apple clean. What would happen to countries if all their citizens could make use of the same legal loopholes as big corporations to avoid paying tax? So zero tax? After all, we are all equal so we all are entitled to use those loopholes. What a feast would that bring! Bring out the Champagne.
Yeah, and they have the cash because they use the customers in the EU as a cash cow. Apple should pay taxes in EU countries? God forbid!
You mean evasion. Evasion is when you illegally don't pay taxes you owe. Avoidance is completely legal, and ABSOLUTELY EVERYONE DOES IT. Your accountant has a duty to avoid taxes for you. If you have taken a single deduction in your entire life, or made a single decision to alter your behaviour to lower your tax burden, you avoided taxes.
Some
Glad to know you're ok with multinational corporations like Amazon and Apple avoiding (even in perfectly legal ways) to pay billions in taxes both in the US and Europe every year
If they are doing everything perfectly legally, they aren't "avoiding" paying taxes. If they pay more than they are legally required to it's called a donation, something any shareholder would be upset over.
Indaviduals, at least in the US, also follow the laws. I pay "base" taxes, and at the end of the year I add up all my deductions and you know what? If I find out I paid the government too much I ask for that money back. My effective tax rate has always been lower than my tax bracket would imply. But I'm not going to donate money to the government, I'm only going to pay what is legally required of me. I don't understand why you think Apple should do differently?
Now you've said something I understand and agree with.
Still, which sounds more likely to you?
- Apple has intentionally defrauded a poor government of a billion dollars, which is chump change for them. And they did it to a poor government, one withthe most incentive to find errors, instead of a rich government.
- A poor government is trying to bend, twist, and reinterpret laws to get money from one of the richest companies in the world. They have all the motivation in the world because they need the money more than Apple does at this point in time.
If Apple is found guilty you can bet it was either a mistake or the Italian Government digging up some nasty little interpretation that they are only now applying. I find the second possibility far more probable, but we'll have to see how it plays out.
Hi, I'm Italian. I want to clarify a couple things.
It's true that we're having some problems but most of the Italian debt is owned by Italians families and companies. Most people here own a house, some more than one and many also have substantial founds. For this reason, unless all people leave the country, bankruptcy is not really an option.
It's also true that mafia and church have a role here but they don't control the country.
The problem that some big companies are facing here is that they move the revenue out of the country and leave the costs here. And this is not acceptable given the free services the companies and their employees get here.
A simplified example: the company has a warehouse in Italy. People working there are hired by another company in Ireland. But they live and work in Italy.
The company earns 1000 euros but the cost for people is 990 (not the real cost obviously they higher the better). In Italy they only pay taxes on 10. But when one of the employees needs to go to the hospital they get it for free. They may also get a free home.
For these services all Italian workers and employers pay a tax. Warehouse employees does not but they get the services.
I don't think anyone can say this fair. The Italy IRS is now looking into these cases.
Other famous companies are amazon and Ryanair.
Hope this can help understanding what's going on. I don't know if Apple is doing this but if they do you can probably see why they're being investigated.
It's true that we're having some problems but most of the Italian debt is owned by Italians families and companies. Most people here own a house, some more than one and many also have substantial founds. For this reason, unless all people leave the country, bankruptcy is not really an option.
It's also true that mafia and church have a role here but they don't control the country.
The problem that some big companies are facing here is that they move the revenue out of the country and leave the costs here. And this is not acceptable given the free services the companies and their employees get here.
A simplified example: the company has a warehouse in Italy. People working there are hired by another company in Ireland. But they live and work in Italy.
The company earns 1000 euros but the cost for people is 990 (not the real cost obviously they higher the better). In Italy they only pay taxes on 10. But when one of the employees needs to go to the hospital they get it for free. They may also get a free home.
For these services all Italian workers and employers pay a tax. Warehouse employees does not but they get the services.
I don't think anyone can say this fair. The Italy IRS is now looking into these cases.
Other famous companies are amazon and Ryanair.
Hope this can help understanding what's going on. I don't know if Apple is doing this but if they do you can probably see why they're being investigated.
I think that it is extremely unlikely that the Italian tax collectors will find anything, notwithstanding other Italian retailers having been caught. If there is one thing we know about Apple, it is the attention to detail and taxes are just one more detail. As many complaints as we have read about Apple's tax avoidance strategies, the reality is that Apple makes lots of money overseas and rather than repatriate to the United States to pay a large tax bill, it keeps it overseas in those jurisdictions that assess the least taxes, perfectly legal.
In case anyone was unaware, a corporation is amoral, as it is a creation of the law, the laws dictates the activities of the corporation. So if it operates to its advantage and not that of the taxing authorities, blame the taxing authorities for not having the foresight to write the laws to grab more (not that I want them to).
The perfect example of a taxing authority doing just that is the State of California which came up with the idea of a unitary tax under which all of a California corporation's profits were taxable in California regardless of where they were earned, effectively preventing use of tax havens, hence Apple keeping as much money bottled up in overseas subsidiaries and away form the California taxman.
Yes, we the little guy don't get to make use of such tax avoidance strategies, but then we keep voting based on issues like abortion and health care, so we're left with money grubbing politicians who are willing to sell out their constituents to the lobbyists offering the most money. Ah, democracy, what a wonderful thing, though I suppose better than living in China or North Korea.
In case anyone was unaware, a corporation is amoral, as it is a creation of the law, the laws dictates the activities of the corporation. So if it operates to its advantage and not that of the taxing authorities, blame the taxing authorities for not having the foresight to write the laws to grab more (not that I want them to).
The perfect example of a taxing authority doing just that is the State of California which came up with the idea of a unitary tax under which all of a California corporation's profits were taxable in California regardless of where they were earned, effectively preventing use of tax havens, hence Apple keeping as much money bottled up in overseas subsidiaries and away form the California taxman.
Yes, we the little guy don't get to make use of such tax avoidance strategies, but then we keep voting based on issues like abortion and health care, so we're left with money grubbing politicians who are willing to sell out their constituents to the lobbyists offering the most money. Ah, democracy, what a wonderful thing, though I suppose better than living in China or North Korea.
Let me guess, the court is in Naples and it made Apple an offer it couldn't refuse?
http://youtu.be/hkTQdEZbjQA
http://youtu.be/hkTQdEZbjQA
Tax avoidance is fine, that's what companies pay lawyers for and why normal people use tax software or CPAs. Nobody has a duty to pay more than their share of taxes. The problem is when tax avoidance becomes tax evasionnot paying what you legally owe.
I'm Italian too...
No problem at all: we have just made a big gift to many "slot machines" companies. They didn't pay tax for about 98 billions (not 1.3 like Apple, but 98) Euro.
Government say: "well, just pay 500 milions, agree?". And no one will ever know if they will pay!
Apple, if guilty, will pay with a van full of brand new ipad. No worries.
In Italy, only poor people are calls to pay full taxes (even for the rich ones).
Apple is not poor.
No problem at all: we have just made a big gift to many "slot machines" companies. They didn't pay tax for about 98 billions (not 1.3 like Apple, but 98) Euro.
Government say: "well, just pay 500 milions, agree?". And no one will ever know if they will pay!
Apple, if guilty, will pay with a van full of brand new ipad. No worries.
In Italy, only poor people are calls to pay full taxes (even for the rich ones).
Apple is not poor.
Italy is no Greece, it has the 8th GDP, 4th gold reserve, 90M mobile phones for 60M people, one of the highest private wealth per person (in the form of homes and personal savings) in the world, the government just needs to knock to Italians' doors if they need money. Italians are sitting on a bunch of money under their beds and sofas. 1 billion is NOTHING and solves NOTHING. Bankruptcy is not and was never an option, if things were so bad that Italy could risk bankruptcy, so would the whole EU and US.
Yeah apple operates around the globe, so do Google and Amazon. Just because something it's been accepted TILL TODAY, doesn't mean it will be tolerated forever.
You may have missed the UK vs Amazon investigation about the EXACT SAME issue (do business in country X, pay taxes in Ireland).
In the US, 40% - 50% of the people use loopholes to pay No federal income tax. I have no complaints with it since taking the loopholes is legal. If you have any complaints with corporations using loopholes, change your laws and eliminate the loopholes.
Third, leaving IMF.
http://www.relbanks.com/rankings/world-gold-reserves
So, please, invading us and bring here a decent government...please.
http://www.relbanks.com/rankings/world-gold-reserves
So, please, invading us and bring here a decent government...please.
Go back to school: Italy is a small country?
Maybe you don't know even how tall you are!
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Sure and America has all the debts paid by China
When China will decide to stop buying your treasure bonds you will be all dead.
C'mon ... Start to you use your brain if you have one!
QUOTE=Newton70;18355497]Italy is on the verge of bankruptcy and Apple has loads of cash, so going after companies for handouts is to be expected. That said, if Apple (or any company) did commit tax fraud they should pay the requisite penalties.
P.S. - Speaking of Italy, I hear Sotheby's is auctioning a bunch of Italian rifles from world War II. They are supposedly in pristine condition having only been dropped once.[/QUOTE]
Maybe you don't know even how tall you are!
----------
Sure and America has all the debts paid by China
When China will decide to stop buying your treasure bonds you will be all dead.
C'mon ... Start to you use your brain if you have one!
QUOTE=Newton70;18355497]Italy is on the verge of bankruptcy and Apple has loads of cash, so going after companies for handouts is to be expected. That said, if Apple (or any company) did commit tax fraud they should pay the requisite penalties.
P.S. - Speaking of Italy, I hear Sotheby's is auctioning a bunch of Italian rifles from world War II. They are supposedly in pristine condition having only been dropped once.[/QUOTE]
That happened in Greece and no one paid tax. This almost bankrupted the country. Individuals and business should pay their share of tax and be done with it. If loopholes exist, then that is the government's responsibility to close the loopholes.
So I agree with you. All the loopholes need to be closed. And you should need a real reason to sue big business, not just to try and milk the business dry. Then there is the argument of "what is a fair amount of tax" but that is outside the scope of this discussion and a topic that both sides will never agree on.