Apple vs Music Industry on Song Pricing

[jacg]

I was shopping yesterday and I went into a music shop for the first time in ages. I was suddenly struck by the lack of choice, the poor presentation and the dificulty of previewing tracks. I could never go back to CDs as my main source of music. I would be disappointed if prices went up and probably buy less music.

The only thing I miss is the racks of CDs at 3 for £10, etc. Although I usually end up recklessly buying rubbish that way...

The combination of broadband and iTMS will draw many more people from CDs in the future, as long as it is also seen to be cost effective too. No wonder HMV and Virgin are panicking!

 

[Abstract]

The one after that gets banned forever and their artists are encouraged to sign with Apple Computer Music Label and sell their songs directly on ITMS where the musicians will keep 90% of the profits.

Problem is that if Apple ever tried to pull any of that s&*t at any point in time, every record company would pull out of iTunes online selling. Then Apple would have to sign every, or most, artists all by themselves in order to start selling a decent number of songs again. But during that time, they'd lose ground to other online stores, or they wouldn't be able to sign everybody and nobody would be able to offer a large number of albums.

 

[sushi]

I hope you someday become world famous for a book, or song or software title, and you never see a penny of income from it because millions of college kids are trading it on the internet using your arguments.

Well put. Some people just don't get it.

As they say, payback is a mother!

Sushi

 

[synergy]

Problem is that if Apple ever tried to pull any of that s&*t at any point in time, every record company would pull out of iTunes online selling. Then Apple would have to sign every, or most, artists all by themselves in order to start selling a decent number of songs again. But during that time, they'd lose ground to other online stores, or they wouldn't be able to sign everybody and nobody would be able to offer a large number of albums.

Sort of like how Apple has to sign every cdbaby.com artist which is brought to them? Oh wait, cdbaby takes care of that. Its so hard to do, I imagine. That's why magnatune.com and cdbaby.com don't bother with that. Oh wait. . .
iPods sell the music, not the other way around. iPods is where Apple makes the money.

 

[bokdol]

this is funny... it reminds me of this article writen a while back on how much a band makes...


http://www.negativland.com/albini.html


i have no idea how close to truth this may be......

 

[shamino]

Re: mix tapes:

Those were fair use, and blank cassettes had a tax wrapped up in their costs because of the possibility.

Making mix tapes for yourself is fair use (at least by most interpretations of that part of the copyright law). Making them for others is infringement, even though nobody has been prosecuted for it.

As for a tax on blank cassettes, that was proposed in the US, but was never passed into law. Other countries may be different, of course.

The US does have a tax on blank CD media. But this is only for blank audio-CD media, not general-purpose media. Which is why consumer audio CD-R decks refuse to record on general-purpose media.

 

[shamino]

But the RIAA doesn't think that way. They think that no matter what the price is, you'll keep buying the same amount of music every year.

That's exactly it.

You may remember back when the RIAA started their big anti-file-sharing push. Their profits were down by 10%, and they blamed the entire shortfall on internet piracy.

Completely ignoring the fact that the entire country was in a recession. Lot of companies were posting LOSSES, and they merely had a 10% reduction in profit.

By all figures, they were doing phenomenally well, given the economic circumstances, but they were working on the assumption that people unable to pay for food and rent won't curtail their CD buying habits. Since they can't imagine why someone would choose food over the latest Eminem album, they conclude that their shortfall must be due to internet piracy.

 

[shamino]

this is funny... it reminds me of this article writen a while back on how much a band makes...

http://www.negativland.com/albini.html

i have no idea how close to truth this may be......

Sounds about right, based on everything else I've read about the music business.

I know of a few musicians that are much more successful than this, going completely independent. They perform medieval/renaissance/folk music. They own their own instruments (which cost a lot up front, but has long since been paid for.) They perform live at renaissance faires, and do concerts at local pubs and sometimes at schools. When they make recordings, they rehearse in someone's home, leasing an engineer and studio when it's time to make the final recording. They send the DAT master to a duplicator and pay for the CDs to be made, which they sell themselves for $15 each at their live shows and through the band's web site.

None of these people are rich (they all have day jobs) and they don't get to tour in a big bus, but they're making a more than $4,000 a year, they own their own copyrights, and some are even listed on iTMS.

There's no chance you're going to become a superstar going this route, but that's not much worse than the odds of becoming a superstar using a major label (which is almost no chance). And the odds of making enough to break even and maybe earn a little profit are much much greater.

 

[pubwvj]

Sure, multiple prices sounds fine.
People would love to pay a penny a song for the old stuff.
New stuff, maybe 99 cents a song, maybe less.
With the fixed iTunes market the studios are getting a free ride.
In a reall free market economy they will find that the average song price will be a _lot_ lower...

 

[jrhone]

How is this stealing?
Until the RIAA came out with "you are stealing" no one thought that, and for good reason. Mp3s, is just 0s and 1s in a specific order, that when read make music. So WHAT are you stealing? Numbers? Data? Who cares.

Who are you "stealing" from?
QUOTE]

I am a producer and you are STEALING FROM ME. Here is how this works. You steal songs. The record company then produces less records because they dont want to spend as much...and the raise prices to compensate for losses due to theft. So the consumer gets less music and pays more per cd. I get less work because the record companies produce less product. Its an endless cycle....The quality of the music goes down because there is less music to choose from and the record comapanies want to put their money in the ones that sell LOTS of records to maximize their profit. So they dont look to sign new acts, they would rather give Mariah Carey 40 million, then sign 40 acts for 1 million. So in the end you are only hurting yourself. When the companies are no longer profitable and they stop putting out music, the music istener will do what? No one will make music for free, at least not GOOD music. It costs money to make a great record, to produce and record a great song, so why should you get it free? You should support the music you like so they can continue to make ut and the record companies can reinvest in other acts.

 

[jrhone]

No, but someone with lots of experience doesn't need the equipment they used to. A good engineers may be more and more able to lay down good tracks without the massive studio infrastructure they used to.
So, rather than a Saturn IV maybe you just need a F-15 to go to the moon, with the right increases in the F-15s engines. I guess the metaphor falls apart, but think of what can be done in print, photography, etc. with less and less equipment. Good engineers are artists, but the technology will steadily be shrunken down to something cheap and small. Garageband/Logic are just the beginning.

Dont believe the Hype.....Yes Logic is a great benefit and replaces many thousands of dollars of recording and midi gear....BUT....i am a platinum award winning producer and I use Logic everyday. But when I record vocals, I MUST use a 5-10K vocal chain, tube microphones and vintage solid state pre amps and tube compressors....there is no substitute. If you are recording a band...multiply that by 10. this in JUST in recording. To mix, you must have an acoustically correct place and monitoring environment. This may cost anywhere form 20K to 100K....This has NOTHING to do with the recording medium, just what you need to have IN ADDITION to the recording medium. Logic is nothing but a fabcy recorder...you still have to have the appropriate equipment to make the things you are recording sound correct. If you compared the "bedroom" recordings done in Logic to the finished productions coming out of say the Record Plant, you would be astonished how big a gap there is. Logic is amazing and gives you amazing tools to create at a MUCH lower price tag than 10 years ago....but then there is the last thing you need....TALENT.....

 

[revjay]

I am a producer and you are STEALING FROM ME. Here is how this works. You steal songs. The record company then produces less records because they dont want to spend as much...and the raise prices to compensate for losses due to theft. So the consumer gets less music and pays more per cd. I get less work because the record companies produce less product. Its an endless cycle....The quality of the music goes down because there is less music to choose from and the record comapanies want to put their money in the ones that sell LOTS of records to maximize their profit. So they dont look to sign new acts, they would rather give Mariah Carey 40 million, then sign 40 acts for 1 million. So in the end you are only hurting yourself. When the companies are no longer profitable and they stop putting out music, the music istener will do what? No one will make music for free, at least not GOOD music. It costs money to make a great record, to produce and record a great song, so why should you get it free? You should support the music you like so they can continue to make ut and the record companies can reinvest in other acts.

I'm not sure where to start...

I'll play devil's advocate...A TRUE MUSICAL ARTIST IS STILL A MUSICAL ARTIST WITH OR WITHOUT THE RECORD COMPANY...THINGS ARE CHANGING...BE READY MR. PLATINUM RECORD PRODUCER.

Of course it costs money to make a good record, but many mainstream artists have self produced, using equipment which more and more people have at their fingertips. SOMETIMES IT IS NOT ALL ABOUT POLISH AND GLITZ...BUT MORE ABOUT HEART AND SUBSTANCE.

ALSO...ANY ONE ELSE TIRED OF RECORD COMPANIES "PRODUCING" OR "CREATING" SO CALLED "ARTISTS" (MAKING THE BAND, UK/AMER./CAN. IDOL, ETC...) SATURATING THE MARKET WITH FLUFF FRUSTRATES THE CONSUMER AND IF I THINK ABOUT IT A BIT...COULD HURT THE RECORD COMPANIES PROFITS TOO!

 

[jrhone]

I'm not sure where to start...

I'll play devil's advocate...A TRUE MUSICAL ARTIST IS STILL A MUSICAL ARTIST WITH OR WITHOUT THE RECORD COMPANY...THINGS ARE CHANGING...BE READY MR. PLATINUM RECORD PRODUCER.

Of course it costs money to make a good record, but many mainstream artists have self produced, using equipment which more and more people have at their fingertips. SOMETIMES IT IS NOT ALL ABOUT POLISH AND GLITZ...BUT MORE ABOUT HEART AND SUBSTANCE.

ALSO...ANY ONE ELSE TIRED OF RECORD COMPANIES "PRODUCING" OR "CREATING" SO CALLED "ARTISTS" (MAKING THE BAND, UK/AMER./CAN. IDOL, ETC...) SATURATING THE MARKET WITH FLUFF FRUSTRATES THE CONSUMER AND IF I THINK ABOUT IT A BIT...COULD HURT THE RECORD COMPANIES PROFITS TOO!

I agree with everything you said....I have been a producer for 16 years as my only source of income and have done quite well, trust me, I know YEARS before the consumer about changes. I am not on the "side" of the record companies, and its not about glitz and polish, but name one person whose heart and substance you like and I'll guarantee it has glitz and polish on it as well....The reason the record companies do these stupid shows is because it makes money. I hate those shows because its not in any way about the music or the talent, its purely for the buck. This is a direct reaction to losing profits though, which in the eyes of the record companies is in part due to illegal downloading. I think the record companies should drop prices across the board, run leaner companies, and put out MORE quality music for the consumer to buy. Then there is the radio stations, but thats another discussion altogether.....Times are changing, but we are still not to the point where you can make a commercially viable song entirely from stuff bought at the Apple Store.....

 

[shamino]

I am a producer and you are STEALING FROM ME. Here is how this works. You steal songs. The record company then produces less records because they dont want to spend as much...and the raise prices to compensate for losses due to theft. So the consumer gets less music and pays more per cd. I get less work because the record companies produce less product. Its an endless cycle....

And the record labels started the cycle by raising prices by 60% upon the invention of the CD, even though their manufacturing costs didn't change (and compared to cassettes, went down.)

I'm sure there would be a lot less theft if prices were in the $10-12 range that they were when they were selling vinyl.

The argument of "it's worth it because it souns better" is just apologies to the consumer, since the price to stamp out a million records is about the same as the price to stamp out a million CDs. And both (when records were made, of coruse) came from the same master tapes, so the cost on the production side is also unchanged.

 

[shamino]

Times are changing, but we are still not to the point where you can make a commercially viable song entirely from stuff bought at the Apple Store.....

No, but we're getting close.

There are several major bands (like Price and King Crimson) that spent a lot of money buying their copyrights back from the labels so they can negotiate their own distribution terms.

Many more major, established, bands are also moving to smaller labels, only using the majors for manufacturing and distribution.

Today, a band can lease time from an independent studio and produce its album without label involvement, and then negotiate contracts that don't involve giving over copyright and don't involve the band losing money on the deal. And iTunes is one piece of this.

No, we're not yet at the point where a band can make it big solely through iTMS, and we may never get to that point, but we are at the point where a band can make an OK living without signing over everything to a record label.

And let's face it, any band that expects to be the next Beatles is just living in a fantassy world. As a producer, you should know better than the rest of us that nearly all bands, whether signed or not, end up at the bottom of the refuse heap. At least by bypassing the labels, they don't wind up up to their eyeballs in debt and unfulfillable contracts as well.

 

[jrhone]

No, but we're getting close.

There are several major bands (like Price and King Crimson) that spent a lot of money buying their copyrights back from the labels so they can negotiate their own distribution terms.

Many more major, established, bands are also moving to smaller labels, only using the majors for manufacturing and distribution.

Today, a band can lease time from an independent studio and produce its album without label involvement, and then negotiate contracts that don't involve giving over copyright and don't involve the band losing money on the deal. And iTunes is one piece of this.

No, we're not yet at the point where a band can make it big solely through iTMS, and we may never get to that point, but we are at the point where a band can make an OK living without signing over everything to a record label.

And let's face it, any band that expects to be the next Beatles is just living in a fantassy world. As a producer, you should know better than the rest of us that nearly all bands, whether signed or not, end up at the bottom of the refuse heap. At least by bypassing the labels, they don't wind up up to their eyeballs in debt and unfulfillable contracts as well.

Again, I agree with everything, not arguing with you there....my point was more to the hardware...It was said that Logic/garage Band was making it so easy to make records that you could go from Logic to iTunes and bypass the record companies....I said no its not possible. I know its a LONG shot for anyone to succeed in the music industry, but I have seen it happen over and over again....I am living proof, but its harder than most could ever imagine. The record companies dont make it easy, but unfortunately the system is set up around the major labels. What is really happening is the people running them have no idea what good music is, and dont care. They simply wanna get product cheap, sell it and make money. Yes you can negotiate your own distrubition delas in every market worldwide, and a deal to manufacture your product, but you miss out on marketing, and radio play, and video play, and promotion. Sure you can do ALL that yourself, but it costs BIG dollars. MTV wont just play your video because it's cool...the radio station wont just play it because its good.....what good is your music on iTunes if no one knows its there? What goos is it in stores if its buried in the bins? That becomes the problem. Marketing and Promotion, and the major labels are EXCELLENT at that when they WANT to be.

 

[revjay]

...Times are changing, but we are still not to the point where you can make a commercially viable song entirely from stuff bought at the Apple Store...

What about "Street Frog" ...oh I dig his technology...

but seriously, Daft Punk, Chem. Brothers, Gorillas, Fatboy Slim...most electronic music can potentially be produced with Apple Store stuff...but who buys a 25key USB keyboard?

 

[jrhone]

What about "Street Frog" ...oh I dig his technology...

but seriously, Daft Punk, Chem. Brothers, Gorillas, Fatboy Slim...most electronic music can potentially be produced with Apple Store stuff...but who buys a 25key USB keyboard?

Maybe the music itself, but vocals? NOPE....you will need more professional gear, hell a great pro microphone alone will cost thousands. And once you record it, mixing the music is another step, then mastering.....the last 2 absolutely cannot be competently done unless you have a nice facility, sonically correct monitoring, amps, etc...Or do you think you can record and mix an album with HK sound sticks and a 4 inch sub? lol....

 

[deejemon]

*

 

[csd32]

Maybe the music itself, but vocals? NOPE....you will need more professional gear, hell a great pro microphone alone will cost thousands. And once you record it, mixing the music is another step, then mastering.....the last 2 absolutely cannot be competently done unless you have a nice facility, sonically correct monitoring, amps, etc...Or do you think you can record and mix an album with HK sound sticks and a 4 inch sub? lol....

I'm not really sure that I care if its stealing if the quality is garbage. If I download a single from a lesser known artist, it's usually with the intention of deciding whether or not that artist is worth a damn. This my process for lesser known, new music. If the single (or whatever songs I download) are only tolerable, or worse, chances are I'll keep the files just to listen to occasionally. Stealing? Maybe so. But if it isn't good, I don't care. Go to buy ice cream, sample a flavor. If it isn't satisfactory, I won't buy a whole cone of it. If a single is bad, I'm not going to buy the rest of the CD.

For classic "must have" albums, I'll buy the entire CD out right because I want the "album experince" associated with start to finish listening of a complete work.

Want me to buy your product? Make it worth hearing.

 

[jrhone]

I'm not really sure that I care if its stealing if the quality is garbage. If I download a single from a lesser known artist, it's usually with the intention of deciding whether or not that artist is worth a damn. This my process for lesser known, new music. If the single (or whatever songs I download) are only tolerable, or worse, chances are I'll keep the files just to listen to occasionally. Stealing? Maybe so. But if it isn't good, I don't care. Go to buy ice cream, sample a flavor. If it isn't satisfactory, I won't buy a whole cone of it. If a single is bad, I'm not going to buy the rest of the CD.

For classic "must have" albums, I'll buy the entire CD out right because I want the "album experince" associated with start to finish listening of a complete work.

Want me to buy your product? Make it worth hearing.

EXACTLY....This is what major labels don't understand. They think its all garbage, they dont know what good music is, nor care enough to find out. So they make people leary of buying a whole album, so they wanna download it to preview it, then if they like it, they intend on buying, but how many really do? If they wanna turn the industry around, do 3 things:

1. Drop the price to $10 per album new releases, and $7 for all others.
2. Increase the quality control, make the ENTIRE album worth listening to.
3. Sign more new and creative acts and release more music.

If they did just these 3 things, you would see the industry flourish.

 

[~Shard~]

EXACTLY....This is what major labels don't understand. They think its all garbage, they dont know what good music is, nor care enough to find out. So they make people leary of buying a whole album, so they wanna download it to preview it, then if they like it, they intend on buying, but how many really do? If they wanna turn the industry around, do 3 things:

1. Drop the price to $10 per album new releases, and $7 for all others.
2. Increase the quality control, make the ENTIRE album worth listening to.
3. Sign more new and creative acts and release more music.

If they did just these 3 things, you would see the industry flourish.

I wouldn't even be able to begin to count how many albums I've come across where the artist's featured track (you know, the one that gets played to death on the radio incessantly) is the only"hit" tune on the whole disc. Maybe there's one other decent track too, (which is probably decent since it sounds practically the same as the first, why mess with formula after all...)

The true artists whom I appreciate and buy their music are the ones where the entire disc is solid.

 

[Lord Blackadder]

Whoa. Now, let's be careful about using newspeak....

Yes, you are right - but my comment is a moral argument. Both stealing and (intentional) copyright infringement are wrong, and anyway unauthorized use is in many ways a form of theft (even if it is not legally defined as such).

 

[shamino]

Maybe the music itself, but vocals? NOPE....you will need more professional gear, hell a great pro microphone alone will cost thousands. And once you record it, mixing the music is another step, then mastering.....the last 2 absolutely cannot be competently done unless you have a nice facility, sonically correct monitoring, amps, etc...Or do you think you can record and mix an album with HK sound sticks and a 4 inch sub? lol....

I agree completely. I don't work in music, but I play a few instrumments and try to keep myself informed about the tech, since it interests me.

For quite a while, I subscribed to Sweetwater Sound's InSync newsletter. (For those who don't know, Sweetwater is an equipment store, Mac dealer, and independent studio. I don't work for them, but I did buy some stuff from them several years ago.)

Anyway, their newsletter is full of all kinds of technical information about studio recordings, live performances, and all of the various audio and computer equipment that's involved. Although I don't pretend to completely understand it, I learned enough to realize that there are a lot of things that are not obvious, and that good equipment doesn't come cheap (and great equipment can cost more than some nations' entire budget.)

But I also learned that there is a lot of new tech that can be "good enough" for people on a budget. For instance, digital microphone processors that can take a less expensive (hundreds of dollars) mic and make it sound like a vintage (thousands of dollars) mic, with a pretty high degree of accuracy. It is possible to find great sounding equipment from unexpected places at much lower costs than more traditional sources, but this requires you to do a lot of homework, which may not be possible if you're a non-geek musician trying to hold down a day job at the same time.

But despite all the savings you can find, it will still end up costing tens of thousands of dollars to rig an entire studio. (Don't forget the building contractor - you can't just put equipment into a living room and expect the sound to be acceptable.) Today, I guesstimate it would cost about $50K to build a small studio. Which is better than the hundreds-of-thousands it used to cost, but it's still a heck of a lot more than what a small band can afford.

And of course, once you've got all this equipment, somebody's got to operate it while the band is playing. A geek-friend with a good ear might be able to do the job, but that's going to be a crap-shoot. A professional engineer won't come cheap.

 

[~Shard~]

Yes, you are right - but my comment is a moral argument. Both stealing and (intentional) copyright infringement are wrong, and anyway unauthorized use is in many ways a form of theft (reven if it is not legally defined as such).

Yeah, that's kind of the way I look at it too. It's just more common sense and ethics than anything "legally defined".