Apple vs. the U.S. Department of Justice: What You Need to Know

[huge_apple_fangirl]

Apple doesn't need to be a monopolist to behave with monopolistic predatory exclusionary behavior.

If they’re not a monopolist then where is the antitrust violation? This cease seems very weak to me, although I am not a lawyer. Even if you believe everything Apple did that they complained about was bad for consumers (which I disagree with), that doesn’t make it illegal. Companies being ****** is nor a violation of the Sherman Act. Like, printer companies charging outrageous ink prices sucks but it’s not an antitrust issue. They go on and on about all the supposedly monopolistic things Apple did but their market definition- “performance smartphones“- seems weak to me.

 

[anthogag]

Both parties, Apple and DoJ, are 1/2 right. They have to meet somewhere in the middle. In certain ways Apple has to play fair with competitors but Apple also has the right to do its own thing.

One example is BlackBerry. When BlackBerry was on the ropes, big-name popular apps stopped developing for BlackBerry devices. BlackBerry wanted to work with these major developers to continue having these apps on BB devices but these major developers said no. There has to be a way for every competitor to have proper access to popular apps or services.

 

[duffman9000]

I’m cracking up at grown adults being bothered because ppl know they use android with green bubbles

People outside of the US just laugh about this. They wonder why smartphone users haven't switched to WhatsApp or Telegram like everyone else.

 

[duffman9000]

Both parties, Apple and DoJ, are 1/2 right. They have to meet somewhere in the middle. In certain ways Apple has to play fair with competitors but Apple also has the right to do its own thing.

One example is BlackBerry. When BlackBerry was on the ropes, big-name popular apps stopped developing for BlackBerry devices. BlackBerry wanted to work with these major developers to continue having these apps on BB devices but these major developers said no. There has to be a way for every competitor to have proper access to popular apps or services.

Why? If you have a popular app or service why should you give me access? If I had a popular app or service why should I provide access?

 

[neilpmas]

The bit no one talks about the Microsoft case is that when they paused being a bunch of anti competitive jerks (starting to go back to it again) they made even more money. They are now close to the best at id management, cloud computing, java compute, version control - the list goes on.

If Apple went back to awesome consumer products and less rent seeking the App Store I feel they could do the same. Why not lean on having the best hardware, os and developer experience, maybe make better open source contributions (homebrew, wine etc) and I’m sure they could make even more revenue. I’d guess that the bonkers aggressive attitude is starting to make it harder to hire

 

[macfacts]

It seems like DOJ has objection to the way Apple even breathes!

I’m surprised they’re not asking Apple to change the name to Zapple as other companies don’t get a chance to top the alphabetical list!

Fyi, apple stole the name from a record company.(Remember The Beatles)

 

[falainber]

This whole thing is so confusing because it wreaks of “apple made a product so good that everyone wants it, and we don’t like that”

Is that what you think? So, Apple not allowing super apps equals "apple made a product so good that everyone wants it"? Interesting logic.

 

[anthogag]

Why? If you have a popular app or service why should you give me access? If I had a popular app or service why should I provide access?

Because you're a popular app. It is the price of admission to have that responsibility. The popular apps link people together and these links should not be limited to one or two platforms.

 

[kwick_818]

Ill preface this by saying two things.

1. I’m not a lawyer
2. I couldn’t care less if apple were broken up into a million pieces tomorrow

so with that out of the way, it seems to me that this case is a steaming pile of hot dog ****. Not that I’m surprised given the United States DOJ over the last decade. But JFC theyre mad about green bubbles and marketing their security features?

 

[waltman]

The DoJ is definitely on something. Give them a DUI

 

[Plutonius]

Reading through this, it seems mostly that the DOJ et al. are filing suit because Apple doesn't do things the way they want Apple to. Eg. Apple charges too much for an iPhone. How is that an anti-trust issue? Are BMWs? Teslas? McLaren's? too expensive. Most of this seems like a reach.

I believe that the DoJ and current administration would not be after Apple unless they were very pissed at Apple (i.e. usually the groups in disfavor are targeted).

I also believe that it might be related to Apple and China.

 

[falainber]

Virtually all the reporting on this case states that it "will take years." This is not necessarily true. Apple may succeed quickly with a motion to dismiss. Apple has won at least one previous antitrust lawsuit regarding iOS with a motion to dismiss.

I smell AAPL shareholder here.

 

[falainber]

Reading through this, it seems mostly that the DOJ et al. are filing suit because Apple doesn't do things the way they want Apple to. Eg. Apple charges too much for an iPhone. How is that an anti-trust issue? Are BMWs? Teslas? McLaren's? too expensive. Most of this seems like a reach.

No, they filed the lawsuit because they believe Apple is violating the law. Price has nothing to do with it.

 

[GrayFlannel]

This should be titled “United States vs Apple Inc” instead of the other way around, since it’s not Apple suing, they’re being sued.

UNITED STATES OF AMERICA
STATE OF NEW JERSEY
STATE OF ARIZONA
STATE OF CALIFORNIA
DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA
STATE OF CONNECTICUT
STATE OF MAINE
STATE OF MICHIGAN
STATE OF MINNESOTA
STATE OF NEW HAMPSHIRE
STATE OF NEW YORK
STATE OF NORTH DAKOTA
STATE OF OKLAHOMA
STATE OF OREGON
STATE OF TENNESSEE
STATE OF VERMONT
STATE OF WISCONSIN
Plaintiffs, v.

APPLE INC.
Defendant.

 

[kognos]

Punishing companies for using stigma in the business would set a new precedent indeed. Consider industries like clothing, jewelry, cars, beverages, cosmetics, etc which also use stigma. Selling perfumes and cologne is all about stigma as is that Rolex watch.

This isn't solely about green/blue bubbles.

Apple claims you have to do everything the Apple way because of security.
Apple claims the best choices for them is based on security.
Yet choosing to send messages to android completely unencrypted - with the option to use RCS on the table for years - is plain flat out hypocrisy.

It's not based upon stigma, it's based upon practical choice. The theme and thread here is that SMS messaging is fundamentally tied to iMessages and coupled, IOS users can't decouple it and Apple chooses the worst and most unsecure process for using it, while at the same time touting the need to do things the Apple way based upon security and thinking on behalf of the end user.

Additionally, that's only one of the many reasons, but the same basic thread is there amongst the other reason. Can't use another payment system? Security. Can't use web apps? Security. Seems like a convenient umbrella, not a real and practical one, considering that this isn't the same even within the Apple ecosystem.

 

[steve09090]

No, they filed the lawsuit because they believe Apple is violating the law. Price has nothing to do with it.

• Messaging apps - The DoJ thinks that third-party apps should be able to send and receive SMS messages, rather than these messages being routed to the Messages app. This would let users switch phones without changing the way they communicate. The filing takes issue with the lack of an iMessage app for Android, Apple's efforts to block the Beeper Mini app, green bubbles, and the adoption of RCS.

This is not against the law any more than not being able to play a PlayStation game on an XBox.

Reality is that the DOJ want access to those message. It’s about getting things working the way they want them and has nothing to do with the law. This is just a way to act like countries that can force this. but try to do it through the courts.

 

[falainber]

I’m cracking up at grown adults being bothered because ppl know they use android with green bubbles

Android users have no idea about Apple bubble color games. Only iPhone users see the colors. And it's the iPhone users who feel aggravated and insist that everyone switched to iPhone.

 

[kognos]

Did you know that Google's RCS implements end-to-end encryption, but that non-Google RCS does not?
Yes, Apple could have chosen to implement Google's RCS, but no sane company would tie themselves to Google messaging anything.

Apple chose to work with the standards, not Google's RCS.

Apple is already working to implement RCS. Most likely because of the EU saying the same things, and this imminent lawsuit. It's not like it was a secret.

 

[Kaos22]

Should we just ignore the fact Apple helps people communicate and share information with methods the US, EU and Chinese governments have difficulty cracking?

 

[wilhoitm]

No, they filed the lawsuit because they believe Apple is violating the law. Price has nothing to do with it.

The DOJ clearly mentioned price several times! None of the mentions make sense in a free market system that is based on the laws of supply and demand and not Socialism! Did the DOJ not even think about what a precedent this would create for almost every other company in existence in the USA? Capitalism is not illegal! If Capitalism is illegal then decisions on this Apple case would affect every company in the World!

iPhone Cost and Development​

• Apple inflates the price for buying and using iPhones.
• Apple spent more than twice as much on stock buybacks and dividends as it did on research and development ($30B vs. $77B in fiscal 2023).
• Apple slowed down innovation on ‌iPhone‌ to extract revenue from customers using subscriptions and cloud services.
• Powerful, expensive hardware is unnecessary if consumers can play games through cloud streaming apps.

 

[PowerButton]

Taxpayers money at its worst 🤦‍♂️

 

[steve09090]

Android users have no idea about Apple bubble color games. Only iPhone users see the colors. And it's the iPhone users who feel aggravated and insist that everyone switched to iPhone.

Do you know anyone who has 'insisted' an Android move to iPhone? So are you saying is that it’s not an Android problem and it’s not really an iPhone problem? Other than iPhone users don't have the same experience.

Should the same thing happen with other industries? The United States is a class society. It relies and thrives (particularly those in government) on these classes. What is different in this case?

If they want to talk about the costs of products, then why aren’t they attacking Big Pharmaceuticals on the same principals?

(just questions or musings, not disputing you)

Should we just ignore the fact Apple helps people communicate and share information with methods the US, EU and Chinese governments have difficulty cracking?

Thats what it’s all about.

 

[falainber]

• Messaging apps - The DoJ thinks that third-party apps should be able to send and receive SMS messages, rather than these messages being routed to the Messages app. This would let users switch phones without changing the way they communicate. The filing takes issue with the lack of an iMessage app for Android, Apple's efforts to block the Beeper Mini app, green bubbles, and the adoption of RCS.

This is not against the law any more than not being able to play a PlayStation game on an XBox.

Reality is that the DOJ want access to those message. It’s about getting things working the way they want them and has nothing to do with the law. This is just a way to act like countries that can force this. but try to do it through the courts.

Game consoles are not considered general computing platformsbut smart phones are. Pay attention to how many times DOJ refers to Apple making it difficult to switch the phones. There is a reason for that. For obvious reasons, most people have just one smartphone. Lots of people have multiple game consoles. One can play some games on XBox and other games on PlayStation. That's not an issue. Carrying two phones requires two wireless plans. Also, SMS is provided by the wireless provider, not Apple. The reason Apple usurps SMS (and MMS) is twofold: make switch to a different platform more difficult but also to prevent messenger app competition on iPhone: only iMessage has access to SMS, which is an important feature.

 

[PowerButton]

That’s nice to see getting their butt kicked once in a while! Keep it up, EU/DoJ. I hope Korea and Japan follow next with their DMA-like approach.

Oh lord…
Politics and donors are behind this.

 

[scorpio vega]

Android users have no idea about Apple bubble color games. Only iPhone users see the colors. And it's the iPhone users who feel aggravated and insist that everyone switched to iPhone.

No it’s android users. They feel left out of chats lol. Meanwhile every country uses different apps.