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Apple today announced that it is launching an online version of its App Store lab, providing developers with another avenue to share feedback to help improve the App Store. Apple's new developer forums will also serve as a platform for developers to share their suggestions so that Apple can implement changes that benefit the community.

app-store-on-ios-13.jpg

Additionally, two changes are coming to the App Store review process this summer. First, in addition to developers being able to appeal decisions about whether an app violates a given guideline of the App Store Review Guidelines, they will be able to "challenge" the guideline itself. Second, Apple says bug fixes for existing apps will no longer be delayed over guideline violations except for those related to legal issues. Instead, developers will be able to address the issue in their next submission through App Store Connect.

Apple's marketing chief and App Store lead Phil Schiller:
The Apple developer community inspires us all with apps that help more than a billion users, transform industries, and change the world. This WWDC, we've introduced innovative new APIs, frameworks, and tools designed to help developers take their app experiences further and reach even more users. The App Store ecosystem is more diverse, dynamic, and successful than it has ever been, but we know that to make it better for everyone, there is more we must do together. This year at WWDC20, we've added online App Store Labs, extended the annual App Store developer survey, and more because we want to hear directly from hundreds of thousands of developers on how they want us to improve the App Store for them, and for users.
These changes come days after Apple faced renewed scrutiny over its App Store practices, including the European Commission's announcement that it will be investigating Apple's in-app purchase system. In particular, Basecamp and some other developers have taken issue with Apple's long-standing 30 percent commission from in-app purchases.

Article Link: Apple Will Allow Developers to 'Challenge' App Store Review Guidelines Starting This Summer
 
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Seoras

macrumors 6502a
Oct 25, 2007
622
1,489
Scotsman in New Zealand
Apple shifting the narrative away from the media, where it can be manipulated and spun to taste, onto their own forums where they can moderate and contain cries of foul play, unfairness, greed, etc, etc
A good move I think. There needed to be a direct channel of communication rather than via the press.
 

sw1tcher

macrumors 68020
Jan 6, 2004
2,295
4,304
Another overblown Apple issue.

Disagree. It wouldn't be an issue if there was another way to get apps for the iOS.

With Mac OS, I can download and install an app directly from the publisher.

With the change to ARM Macs and Mac OS 11, I wouldn't be surprised if Apple took that ability away from users and forced everyone to get their apps through the app store.


Developers have no idea what the 30% fee earns them.

30% less revenue?
 

ArtOfWarfare

macrumors G3
Nov 26, 2007
9,229
5,287
Thanks Oh Apple for the meager scraps.

Developers have no idea what the 30% fee earns them.

Please enlighten us. I distribute non-iOS apps via my website, no problem. I pay fees to keep my domain registration, and I have a power bill and an internet bill to keep my $35 Raspberry Pi online.

People who think Apple is doing anything even remotely worth 30% are clueless. Consider this: Apple is totally content with the 30% of nothing they get on free apps. Why? Because distributing apps costs essentially nothing. Apple's App Store contributes little of actual value. Its only value (for entities besides Apple) is artificially produced by the fact that Apple refuses to allow apps to be installed from any other source.
 

farewelwilliams

macrumors 601
Jun 18, 2014
4,784
17,868
Please enlighten us. I distribute non-iOS apps via my website, no problem. I pay fees to keep my domain registration, and I have a power bill and an internet bill to keep my $35 Raspberry Pi online.


Well for one, I bet connections to your Raspberry Pi are blocked in China (you know, the world's largest smartphone market), while the App Store takes care of distributing behind China's great firewall (which the Play Store doesn't BTW) along with hundreds of other servers around the world so that your app doesn't take 2 hours to download from the other side of the world.

Among 50 other things that the 30% pays for...of course.

Because distributing apps costs essentially nothing.
You have no idea what tf you're talking about.
[automerge]1592876240[/automerge]
Disagree. It wouldn't be an issue if there was another way to get apps for the iOS.

Most users don't need another way.

With Mac OS, I can download and install an app directly from the publisher.

With macOS, I have 10 different services that are constantly running in the background to self update the app on my Mac. Chrome self updates with a service. Adobe self updates with a service. Microsoft self updates with a service. Adguard self updates with a service. Logitech self updates with a service. List goes on.

Some apps don't even have a self updater and breaks on each major OS release so I have to manually hunt down the newest update.

App Store - I don't even think about it. All of my apps are updated automatically. Great UX.


With the change to ARM Macs and Mac OS 11, I wouldn't be surprised if Apple took that ability away from users and forced everyone to get their apps through the app store.

I wouldn't mind. Adobe and Microsoft would.


30% less revenue?

Take a look at all of the things that were announced today as well as previous WWDC years for developers. Say bye to half of that since Apple would reduce investments across the board if the App Store didn't earn Apple the 30%.
 
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Rogifan

macrumors Core
Nov 14, 2011
22,606
28,625
And some will still say Apple's App Store rules are illegal and that Apple should just distribute my apps for free so that Apple gets nothing for investing billions of dollars into this platform.
Every developer pays $99 yearly fee. I spend $1000 on an iPhone. Does none of that go to maintaining the App Store? Considering how much profit Apple makes each quarter and how much cash they have I don’t think the company has any trouble maintaining the App Store. They can argue they deserve a commission or finders fee but a lot of developers will say their app isn’t popular because of Apple. I can’t remember the last time I downloaded an app because it was featured on the App Store. Outside of maybe a few games none of the apps on my iOS devices are there because of Apple promotion/marketing.
 

Kierkegaarden

macrumors 6502a
Dec 13, 2018
640
1,226
USA
Another overblown Apple issue. Developers have no idea what the 30% fee earns them.
Agreed. And speaking of greed, I believe we see this on the side of the developer (that complains) of this fee. They have no idea what it costs to create, support, and maintain this brilliant distribution platform. Apple is improving their OS fleet and developer tools every single year.

Does Apple have a monopoly on this market? You could argue for this, but a monopoly by itself is not illegal. If it used to harm the consumer, this is illegal. But if it is used to benefit the consumer, then they are acting properly. In this case, Apple has not changed their fee since the App Store was introduced. Everyone that signs up as a developer and submits their app should understand what they are getting into.
 

Cosmosent

macrumors 68000
Apr 20, 2016
1,908
2,083
La Jolla, CA
OK Cook, here is your ONLY & ONLY heads-up:

I will use this to try to get "Timmy," the planet's ONLY per-Qtr, per-Device "iPhone Unit Sales" Estimator, RE-instated in the iOS App Store !
 

Kyanar

macrumors member
Jun 17, 2020
54
31
Agreed. And speaking of greed, I believe we see this on the side of the developer (that complains) of this fee. They have no idea what it costs to create, support, and maintain this brilliant distribution platform. Apple is improving their OS fleet and developer tools every single year.

Your argument should have merit if Apple charged free apps as well, which it doesn't. Or if Apple incurred different expenses for a $5 app as a $500 app, which it doesn't. As such, your argument is meritless and specious. Percentage based charges beyond the payment processing are unjustifiable. There would be a lot more acceptance of them if they werent usurious amounts like an entire third.

Does Apple have a monopoly on this market? You could argue for this, but a monopoly by itself is not illegal. If it used to harm the consumer, this is illegal. But if it is used to benefit the consumer, then they are acting properly.

Wrong. Using market power to harm consumers, competitors, or markets is illegal. And Apple demonstrably does this.

In this case, Apple has not changed their fee since the App Store was introduced. Everyone that signs up as a developer and submits their app should understand what they are getting into.
You can't agree contractually to illegal things, no matter what's in a contract.
 

Tech198

macrumors P6
Mar 21, 2011
15,814
2,120
Australia, Perth
ya, and i think i know what the top 10 suggestions will be. loose the 30% .. Reviews aside, developers just won't be able to stop themselves.

The idea Apple is going the same way Youtube where it takes down "can challenge". the difference with Apple is, they've always been closed, youtube has always remained open somewhat, so Apple gets the key. Sounds like you can challenge more youtube because of that.

I reckon while this would be good for App store there will be restrictions as to what exactly...i'm sure. Apple is nnot likely gonna open up to challenging everything.
 
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farewelwilliams

macrumors 601
Jun 18, 2014
4,784
17,868
Every developer pays $99 yearly fee. I spend $1000 on an iPhone. Does none of that go to maintaining the App Store? Considering how much profit Apple makes each quarter and how much cash they have I don’t think the company has any trouble maintaining the App Store. They can argue they deserve a commission or finders fee but a lot of developers will say their app isn’t popular because of Apple. I can’t remember the last time I downloaded an app because it was featured on the App Store. Outside of maybe a few games none of the apps on my iOS devices are there because of Apple promotion/marketing.

$99 fee pays for 3 app update submissions (app reviewers make $29-$35/hr, 1 app review is about an hour). I've submitted over 20-30 updates before. $99/yr pays for barely anything.

Your $1000:
- pays for hardware (including R&D)
- pays for 5 years of major "user features" software (not even talking about developer APIs)
- pays for Apple Care/Genius Bar support
- pays for free shipping on potential returns
- pays for iMessage + FaceTime service for life
- pays for Apple Maps service for life which Apple doesn't make much $$$ from since they don't sell your data unlike Google Maps
- pays for push notification service for life
- pays for iCloud mail for life
- pays for Sign In with Apple service (where Apple makes $0 from while Facebook makes a ton selling your sign in data),
- pays for Find My phone service for life
- pays for documents in the cloud for all of your apps (like Notes, Keychain, Reminders) for life
- pays for Siri service (again, Apple doesn't sell your data, so the money has to come from somewhere)
- pays for iCloud on the web service
- pays for Apple News (whether you use it or not)
- pays for free radio

- etc...

This doesn't even touch the developer side of things.

You're talking about an expensive option. Instead, imagine what a $399 iPhone SE pays for.
 

farewelwilliams

macrumors 601
Jun 18, 2014
4,784
17,868
Uh, no they're not. Netflix doesn't allow you to sign up in app, and you also cannot use IAP to subscribe in app (actually, you cannot even sign in without a subscription).

You didn't say within the app. I mentioned Netflix since they run their payment processor outside the app.

Here's the thing: why should your users be signing up "within" the app as opposed to outside the app? If they signed up "within" the app, then Apple played *some* role in user acquisition. If the user subscribed "outside" the app, Apple *didn't* play a row in user acquisition and therefore they don't get anything. That's the logic behind this deal and it makes 100% sense to me.

If a user discovered Netflix from the front page of the App Store, downloaded the app, and subscribed within the app, that means Apple played a role in user acquisition.
 

Kyanar

macrumors member
Jun 17, 2020
54
31
You didn't say within the app. I mentioned Netflix since they run their payment processor outside the app.

Here's the thing: why should your users be signing up "within" the app as opposed to outside the app? If they signed up "within" the app, then Apple played *some* role in user acquisition. If the user subscribed "outside" the app, Apple *didn't* play a row in user acquisition and therefore they don't get anything. That's the logic behind this deal and it makes 100% sense to me.
In no world does a referral result in a 30% commission to another business who at a whim can terminate your relationship with your own customers except Apple's (and your) fantasy world. Get out of here.

If a user discovered Netflix from the front page of the App Store, downloaded the app, and subscribed within the app, that means Apple played a role in user acquisition.
No it means the user was using the Netflix app, possibly from the "Available on App Store" button on Netflix's own website, and clicked subscribe because Apple says Netflix isn't allowed to offer a "go here to subscribe" in the app.

Apple's real reason why apps must have at least a free trial available from the app is so that when the free trial stops working you have to say "subscribe now" and use IAP because Apple believes antitrust laws don't apply to them and mandate that you use In-App Purchases.
 

Johnny907

macrumors 65816
Sep 20, 2014
1,441
2,401
And some will still say Apple’s App Store rules are just fine, anyone complaining is just a whiner and should go to Android. 🙄
Holy Heck, Rog, I think this is the first time we have agreed on anything.
But seriously, I think I’ve located an app via the App Store directly maybe twice in the decade or so it’s been in existence. Generally when I install an app it is because I heard about it from somewhere else or via google search when looking for an app to fulfill whatever need I had for it. From that point if the the App Store didn’t exist and Apple allowed us to, I would find said app the same way I have been for 20 years now on my personal computer: google the apps website and download directly. Looking at my home screen I don’t see a single app that I needed the App Store to acquire if I weren’t forced to. Instagram, Netflix, twitter, chrome, pandora and audible etc all could have been downloaded directly without any interaction from Apple’s servers in any way shape or form if they didn’t directly require it.

For folks that justify the 30% cut Apple takes because that is how Apple keeps users safe; by limiting downloads to only apps that are tested and approved by Apple, removing the App Store limitation wouldn’t stop Apple from controlling the API’s required for Apps to function on an iOS device. If an app was discovered to be abusing a particular API in a way that violated Apple’s TOS, they could disable that functionality via a simple OTA update. Apple has already demonstrated its ability to do just this numerous times in the past, so we know the framework not only exists but is already deployed and operational. Sorry but Apple’s insistence that the App Store is absolutely vital has already been disproven by its own past actions so its ludicrous to even entertain it further.
 

farewelwilliams

macrumors 601
Jun 18, 2014
4,784
17,868
In no world does a referral result in a 30% commission to another business who at a whim can terminate your relationship with your own customers except Apple's (and your) fantasy world. Get out of here.

This is such a stupid statement. You're essentially saying "Hey Apple, spend billions of dollars building out the App Store and acquire enough customers so that 500 million people visit the app store every week just so I can get a free ride on this thing". You think platform grows on trees? Apple doesn't owe you a single thing. Luckily Android exists with 80% global marketshare so that makes it hard to consider Apple a monopoly.


No it means the user was using the Netflix app, possibly from the "Available on App Store" button on Netflix's own website
Well then...isn't that where the user acquisition should happen *BEFORE* the App Store button shown? It's not like a user can see what the Netflix app can do before the user subscribes because the first thing you see in the Netflix app is the sign in page.

It's not hard to implement Apple Pay on the web either where users have nearly the exact same way of subscribing as within the app.

Really your logic doesn't work here.
 
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