Apple Wins Stay in Epic Case, Won't Have to Implement App Store Changes Tomorrow

[zarmanto]

... Tim Cook probably paid someone off with all his money.

That's indirectly correct: Apple pays their lawyers extremely well. And those lawyers have done exactly what they are paid to do; advocate for Apple's interests in court.

What? Too underwhelming? Not the inflammatory conspiracy that you were looking for? Well, you should probably get used to that... most things that happen in the court of law* are genuinely very boring, and distinctly lacking in conspiracies.

 

[alchemistmuffin]

If EPIC loses again, they may not want to invest anymore capital in lawyers/trials/etc. With no realistic chance of winning, and possibly insuring they can't ever inflict the changes they want.

I doubt that will happen. Based on Tim Sweeny’s behavior, he’s probably willing to use every single penny of his spending to make sure IAP and monopoly case goes to Epic’s favor, and this means keep appealing all the way to SCOTUS.

 

[Maximara]

I doubt that will happen. Based on Tim Sweeny’s behavior, he’s probably willing to use every single penny of his spending to make sure IAP and monopoly case goes to Epic’s favor, and this means keep appealing all the way to SCOTUS.

I agree but even if the SCOTUS does hear it odds are they could just kick it back to the Ninth Circuit as they did with Circuit City Stores, Inc. v. Adams who found another law to rule against Circuit City. The fact Tim Sweeny supposedly thinks the case to be 5 years or more indicates that somewhere in the back his mind this is the way things will likely go.

“There needs to be a novel, compelling issue of law here or a major legal mistake made by the lower courts,” Solomon explains. “I just don't see it. What I see is a United States District Court that did a remarkably good job applying and interpreting the law here.” - Epic Games V. Apple Verdict: Appeal Is "Terribly Dumb," Analysts Say

Remember Apple didn't even try its appeal until Epic went for its appeal and the one thing Epic did win on is likely on life support with he plug very close to being pulled.

 

[TracesOfArsenic]

Apple behaves like a petulant child with rich parents. When something doesn't go their way they use their wealth to get their own way.

 

[Abazigal]

Apple behaves like a petulant child with rich parents. When something doesn't go their way they use their wealth to get their own way.

When you are constantly being beset by enemies seeking to wrest control of your ecosystem away from you, it helps to have the strength to stand up to any foe, no matter how strong.

Continue to fight and continue to win, Apple. Epic showed you no quarter, and they should expect none in return.

 

[quarkysg]

Apple behaves like a petulant child with rich parents. When something doesn't go their way they use their wealth to get their own way.

Well, what do you expect Apple to do? Sit around and do nothing while bullies comes into it's own backyard trying to take over a corner of it's backyard and trying to beat it up at the same time?

How would Epic's behaviour be categorised then?

 

[Scottsoapbox]

Disagree. I *like* having all transactions go through Apple. Gets rid of some of the Wild West that you see on Android.

If you want chaos, switch to android. It's always been an option.

Allowing developers the option to offer a payment option in addition to Apple's is not "chaos" nor does it stop you from only paying via Apple.

 

[Unregistered 4U]

While the OP was written as a fact and not opinion, I believe it's reasonable to assume that every developer wants as much money as possible and therefore no dev has lowered their prices. Of course all of this is pure conjecture that probably is extremely difficult to prove one way or another.

I think it’s easy to prove. Sites like applesliced.com keeps track of price drops and it would be fairly easy to check to see if there’s a pattern of prices dropping by precisely 15%. You won’t find this pattern, of course, because due to the pricing in the Apple Store, it’s very difficult to drop a price neatly by exactly 15%. So, I do think you can safely say that no developer has dropped their prices by some fraction of .99.

 

[Born2Run]

Who would you use to process your payments? And, you should still go live with it!

Photosets Burst Photo Camera | App Price Drops

Photosets Burst Photo Camera is currently free (was $4.99). Download now! ● Captures with High-Precision Timing & is very-likely the ONLY Camera App on th

appsliced.co

Something about this app just feels off… the price keeps changing every couple of days and there have been no new reviews in 4 years! ?

 

[Born2Run]

So are we getting Fortnite back or not!?

Hopefully not… that game can burn in hell with the rotten corpse of Epic Games!

 

[Unregistered 4U]

Something about this app just feels off… the price keeps changing every couple of days and there have been no new reviews in 4 years! ?

The developer would tell you it’s Apple’s fault for making “App Discovery” so hard. I have yet to find it hard to find an app I want, but that’s primarily because I’m using the internet for that… not the App Store Make an app folks like and want to talk about and they’ll do your marketing for you. Otherwise…

 

[drew627]

The megacorp lovers in this thread are delusional...

 

[Gix1k]

Hopefully not… that game can burn in hell with the rotten corpse of Epic Games!

Why are you so mad?

 

[Maximara]

The developer would tell you it’s Apple’s fault for making “App Discovery” so hard. I have yet to find it hard to find an app I want, but that’s primarily because I’m using the internet for that… not the App Store Make an app folks like and want to talk about and they’ll do your marketing for you. Otherwise…

Right I suspect that the majority of App developers complaining are either rich ones who can't stand Apple getting any of "their" money (Epic), write programs that get deleted after 5 minutes of use, or are so clueless in marketing they are effectively Bizzaro IBM ie couldn't sale space heaters to Eskimos (The joke in the early days said IBM's sales people were so good they could sale snow to Eskimos)

 

[djphat2000]

I doubt that will happen. Based on Tim Sweeny’s behavior, he’s probably willing to use every single penny of his spending to make sure IAP and monopoly case goes to Epic’s favor, and this means keep appealing all the way to SCOTUS.

If he is half intelligent he will not. And more importantly if those that sit on the board of EPIC are at all intelligent, they will not allow him to either. It's simply not in their best interest. He could be pissed all he wants, still has a company to run.

"IF" this next appeal by Apple does not go EPIC's way. It will be completely pointless to continue pursuing. The risk is way to high not only against them winning, but ever changing the current status quo. Chancing the SCOTUS again siding with Apple. Well, you got no chance of getting Apple to change post that. Other than what they want to change.

Best bet here, is for EPIC to drop it. Speak with Apple outside of any official public means, and figure out a better way. My suggestion is to go the web app route. Do what Microsoft did and create a streaming service that allows them to make as much as they can directly without paying Apple anything.

My next suggestion for EPIC is say to Apple "look, we want to create games on the Mac/iOS/iPad OS to the fullest extent of the capabilities of the hardware you have. Every game we make, we want it on your platforms either first, same time or within months of the PC release. Give us a deal, give us a deal what will make that effort worth it. Maybe partner with us in development of some of these games. Call it EPIC Mac Games!". I'm not really saying do this, but do something other than make enemies.

 

[Maximara]

If he is half intelligent he will not. And more importantly if those that sit on the board of EPIC are at all intelligent, they will not allow him to either. It's simply not in their best interest. He could be pissed all he wants, still has a company to run.

"IF" this next appeal by Apple does not go EPIC's way. It will be completely pointless to continue pursuing. The risk is way to high not only against them winning, but ever changing the current status quo. Chancing the SCOTUS again siding with Apple. Well, you got no chance of getting Apple to change post that. Other than what they want to change.

Best bet here, is for EPIC to drop it. Speak with Apple outside of any official public means, and figure out a better way. My suggestion is to go the web app route. Do what Microsoft did and create a streaming service that allows them to make as much as they can directly without paying Apple anything.

My next suggestion for EPIC is say to Apple "look, we want to create games on the Mac/iOS/iPad OS to the fullest extent of the capabilities of the hardware you have. Every game we make, we want it on your platforms either first, same time or within months of the PC release. Give us a deal, give us a deal what will make that effort worth it. Maybe partner with us in development of some of these games. Call it EPIC Mac Games!". I'm not really saying do this, but do something other than make enemies.

Given how bad an actor Epic has been how could Apple trust anything Epic offered them? Epic has this Don Quixote idea that they will over shadow Steam and are going for exclusives by throwing buckets of money at as many developers as they can and when Epic messed in PR as with Shenmue 3 they offer refunds to the customers to placate them.

Epic not only burned the bridge between them an Apple but went to the remains, poured petrol on them, and set them on fire.

 

[Unregistered 4U]

Speak with Apple outside of any official public means

Ohhh, that bridge was burned, gas poured on the ashes and burned again! Epic HAD an amicable relationship with Apple, even had many hours of free support from Apple helping them out with their apps. But they threw that away when they decided to blatantly go against the terms of their entry into the App Store.

There’s no reason to think they won’t do it again. They’re not in a position to obtain any kind of favor from Apple at this point.

 

[Abazigal]

Why are you so mad?

I am not mad, but it's not hard to see how Epic is doing more harm than good to the developer economy. I have categorically stated right from the start that I don't think anti-trust accusations against Apple will hold up to scrutiny (and I still don't). I stated right from the start that Epic was fighting an impossible battle it cannot hope to win, possibly because they were hoping that the ensuing developer and consumer pressure would force Apple to capitulate before this matter ever reached the courts.

This support ultimately never materialised, possibly because as I theorised, the majority of consumers don't actually care about a 30% tax they will never see, and consumers don’t actually dislike closed, sandboxed app ecosystems. Internal documents have not embarrassed Apple in the least. In short, I maintain that the iOS App Store, for all its flaws, is what results in the greatest amount of good for the greatest number of users, which is why I am not in favour of opening it up.

Up till the lawsuit, Apple had demonstrated that they were still open to engaging developers and following a measured, albeit glacial pace of change precisely to avoid potential lawsuits. But now that the court case is over and the judge has ruled overwhelmingly in favour of Apple, it feels to me that Apple now realises that they have nothing left to lose. Apple's not a monopoly in a sense that would merit further lawsuits against it, and third party payments will not allow developers to skirt around their 15/30% cut. Epic is still not allowed back on the iOS App Store, and continues to suffer losses daily in terms of potential revenue lost. And given the state of Congress right now, I just don't expect any meaningful legislation to be passed that would impact Apple in any way.

Apple will feel emboldened by its victory and will defend its practices even more rigidly. What incentive will Apple have to make further concessions to developers, when its legal victory stands as a symbol of its unassailable authority on iOS? Any concessions Apple decided to make henceforth will be because it chooses to, not because it has to.

Epic’s reckless gamble is bad for the app economy, in that if they had won, the benefit would have been all theirs, but any losses would have been borne by the entire developer economy. And still they persist, just so they can launch an Epic Store on iOS and charge developers some percentage of revenue for the privilege of publishing their games. I fail to see how this improves the status quo any; when you are essentially trading one App Store for another.

 

[Carnegie]

In-large-part because Google is ahead the curve here, & they decided to go with 11%.

That happened ONLY 1-2 months ago.

If Apple, OR Google, decides to go much higher, the "Trust Busting" efforts will never stop !

That's the main reason I believe they "can't & won't" go higher.

Also, look how fast Tim Cook is aging right now !

You think he wants another few years of this ?

If you're referring to what Google said it was going to do in South Korea, it didn't say it was going from 30% to 11%. It said it was discounting the commission rate by 4% (for those using third-party payment processes). So if Google's commission would otherwise be 15%, it would then be 11%. But if Google's commission would otherwise be 30%, it would then be 26%. Your graphic was comparing a 30% commission to a 10% commission. What Google indicated it was going to do is more in line with what I suggested would happen with Apple.

That said, what Apple does might not be the same as what Google does. They have quite different big picture business models and have used their mobile system IP in quite different ways. Google has, to a great extent, given away the right to use its IP in part to help make itself a major player in the mobile computing / services market. Apple has had less need to do that and hasn't done it to the same extent that Google has, at least when it comes to others directly monetizing the use of its IP. So what Apple does with commissions when third-party payment processes are used might be different. Further, what both of them do in South Korea might be different from what both of them do in other jurisdictions, e.g. in the United States. What will be allowed based on the laws (and the interpretations thereof) might differ between jurisdictions.

 

[Maximara]

Ohhh, that bridge was burned, gas poured on the ashes and burned again! Epic HAD an amicable relationship with Apple, even had many hours of free support from Apple helping them out with their apps. But they threw that away when they decided to blatantly go against the terms of their entry into the App Store.

There’s no reason to think they won’t do it again. They’re not in a position to obtain any kind of favor from Apple at this point.

Pretty much this. Epic's behavior regarding their relationship with Apple reminds me of Zero Punctuation's review of Assassin's Creed: Unity: "Oh right, sorry. I thought you said 'burn to the ground and (bleep) on the ruins'.

 

[FreedomPenguin]

Thank god. I do not want apple opened up at all. Like seriously, people who do need to move to Android and leave us alone. Apple is perfect as it is. I don’t care if I pay the premium, it is safe and easy. Cheap and free peeps can get the cheap and crap androids all day

 

[TiggrToo]

Apple must have had the entire thing ready to go, since it was to be implemented by tomorrow.

That's a bad assumption there.

 

[djphat2000]

Ohhh, that bridge was burned, gas poured on the ashes and burned again! Epic HAD an amicable relationship with Apple, even had many hours of free support from Apple helping them out with their apps. But they threw that away when they decided to blatantly go against the terms of their entry into the App Store.

There’s no reason to think they won’t do it again. They’re not in a position to obtain any kind of favor from Apple at this point.

I'm inclined to agree. However, I think universally. No one likes lawsuits. And even thought I, others, and Apple believe they are in the right here. It would be approachable for EPIC to open the conversation with that. Again, not in official language for the masses to read and jump all over. But, in private. Figure out something that is amicable to each. Offer to join up with Apple Arcade with a good amount of games right out the gate. And in exchange consider the streaming option with a lower monthly cut than the 30%. Say 12%. Or even 10%. Anything via the Arcade gets the normal rate. But, if anyone signs up with EPIC streaming (just a name to call it at this point, and or any streaming) it's 10-12% rate/fee/whatever you want to call it. This would include the IAP done via those means.

So, if any user signs up for the arcade, Apple gets a good chunk of change from that monthly fee. If they go with the other streaming options, they get less BUT still get a cut since a bigger portion of it is off Apple's hands. The games get brought into the store individually as they want, at individual prices as Apple wanted. They could even limit the games available via streaming to those that are on the store/arcade.. Just to get in the door. Gives everyone time to figure out which games work and don't. And if you the consumer want "more" than what is on the iOS device. Well, you can still go to a PC or other device where the game is available to stream/download whatever. Until it is available.

Since not every game is going to work out great on a mobile device, it makes almost no sense to bring ALL of them over. Start small, and work there way up. I mean not for nothing, the money wasted in this litigation exercise could have been put to use making apps/games and more MONEY. Even Microsoft could have say we will provide limited games via streaming so we can also allow those limited games direct download access on the AppStore. Bringing in hundreds of games at once would have been way too much work. But, say to 10 or 20 games? Definitely feasible. They are sold individually on the Xbox and or PC, so again limit the amount. Still allow the customer to have full access via a PC with the same subscription etc. Slowly bring over new popular games over time. And less popular games you don't have to waste your time with.

This is a ruff idea, and I'm not trying to say it should be 10-12%. It could be higher or lower depending on the amount of revenue this would generate for EPIC/MS/Apple to go with this route. It has to be profitable for all parties and grow each others business for the amount of effort in doing this. No one should get a free ride, and I'm sure a price point that is amicable for all would be reachable. Even with the past as a reason to distrust EPIC. Cooler heads can prevail and they can work together again. Just have to want to, and it can't be all or nothing. Stop calling Apple a monopoly or evil, they are better than most business and none are perfect. And have some patients.

 

[wirefire]

I don’t see how offering alternative payment options would be the end of Apple. And I don’t understand why opinions are so strong on this issue generally.

It won't be the end of Apple. but it is a disruption to their business model. Right now, all App Store revenue is generated from this percentage on transactions in the App store. That percentage applies to all transactions made within the Apple app ecosystem. If you introduce the option for 3rd party payments, then Apple loses their revenue stream that supports the App Store. Apple will not sit idly by and lose revenue because of a court ruling, so they will start thinking about alternative ways to monetize the App market. I am sure their people have been working on this for some time since the threat has been there. Changing that model is either a loss for small developers or consumers because that money has to come from somewhere else. Easiest option is for Apple to start charging developers to have their App hosted on their service and that is not a good thing for consumers or developers. The developers know this going into the Apple environment, if you don't like the agreement, you don't have to participate.

 

[Unregistered 4U]

Figure out something that is amicable to each.

There’s nothing Epic could offer Apple other than “play by the rules”, though. And, Epic doesn’t want to do that because that would be status quo, the same status quo they’ve already broken and that they maintain they want to it to continue broken. The best Epic can hope for at this point is to pay Apple’s legal fees, get set up back in the App Store again only this time, their $99 yearly developer’s fee isn’t likely to get them a TON of free help anymore