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You have strong opinions, and that's fine. But there's two problems here. First, your predictions of the future are pure speculation on your part (just like they're pure speculation on mine). But (with exceptions, like in your last para), when discussing this, you don't speak as if you recognize this is just your personal speculation, and that you're thus just as likely to be wrong as right.

Second, and related to the above, your language towards those not of your opinion is often condescending or suspicious...that those of us who don't agree with you are being obstinant, lacking in vision, and generally 'not getting it'. In another thread, you accused those in a different camp of being blinded by their agendas.

No. To the extend others disagree with you, it's not because we're being obstinant, or lacking in vision, or not getting it, or pursuing a hidden agenda. It's simply that we've done our own informed analysis, and have come to a conclusion that is different from yours.

Now, you might argue that, in using the word "cultists", I was myself being condescending towards those with differing opinions. No, that was an entirely different situation. In those cases, the people weren't insisting that they were entitled to their own opinions, but that they were entitled to their own facts. If someone insists the latter (e.g., that the world is flat), then the term cultist is appropriate.

Thank you for taking the time to respond to this, and I apologise for upsetting you in any way.

Unfortunately, for every one poster like yourself who takes the time to do their own research and come to their own conclusions, there are easily many more here who are more interested in being first than in being right. You see this in the first few pages of many a forum post, and the dearth of quality in their responses is precisely the problem. They have an uninformed opinion about something they don’t understand and insist on proclaiming their opinion as being equally valid. Yet when time invariably proves them wrong, they instead choose to double down and deny that this is happening.

The reason why I disagree with them is because their understanding of what makes Apple tick is so fundamentally wrong that there really is little point in listening to what they have to say when the basis underpinning their arguments is not accurate to begin with.

Take for example the oft-parroted argument that Apple needs to offer a cheaper iphone, or risk irrelevance at the hands of cheaper Android alternatives. Am I the only one who sees the irony of self-styled pundits recommending that Apple follow a strategy which has clearly not been profitable for the competition? Or how Apple already has the ideal solution in their trade-in programme which not only makes newer iPhones more affordable, while also enabling a steady stream of second-hand iPhones that contribute towards growing Apple’s iphone install base? And yet year after year after year, “experts” continue to promote this as a panacea to a problem that Apple was never facing to begin with.

As I type this, I guess that maybe that I have gotten more than a little irritated by people making the same tired arguments repeatedly, and maybe that shows in the highly-opinionated tone I tend to take. Apple *needs* to make a round watch / folding fold / buy Netflix / random baseless claim or it’s doomed. But if they were to just take a little time to better understand Apple’s design-led culture, they would see why Apple hasn’t done any of these, and have instead created the iphone, ipad, Apple Watch, AirPods and currently working on Apple glasses.

I will see what I can do about my tone, but let’s just say I don’t have a habit of making promises I know I have a hard time keeping.
 
Curious - does anybody do basic to extensive Excel work on an iPad (of any variety)? I see the app, but when I've tried to use it, it just doesn't seem to have the power and functionality of Excel on my MacBook Pro. I guess same question for WORD and Powerpoint
No, of course not. This is one of the areas where the iPad is pretty weak. It is not meant to be a classic productivity tool and as long as Microsoft doesn't improve its Office suite to bring it on par with macOS and Windows, it will be difficult for me (and many other pros) to treat the iPad as a productivity tool. When I have a customer meeting, I always take my MacBook Pro with me. I know, that whatever I will need to do, I will also be able to do. There are no limits whatsoever. If I take my iPad Pro with me, I feel that I might not be able to do everything I will need to during the meeting. Using Powerpoint, editing Word documents, using Remote Desktop to manage Windows Servers are tasks that are possible, but there are still limitations. I don't think that Apple can do anything about it. For me it is Microsoft that holding the iPad back.
Having said that, I love using my iPad Pro for light productivity tasks and for consumption. Is it too expensive for these tasks? Yes, it is, but I don't care..Your mileage might of course vary..
When the Magic Keyboard comes out, I will certainly buy it test it thoroughly. It is nice to be on this journey the iPad platform is on.
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Why not just wait for the iPad keyboard case with the trackpad to do this comparison?
So far, iPadOS is really difficult to use for me, and I thought it would be easier than a desktop OS. Maybe if I had never ever used a computer, then iPad would seem easy?
This is true. If you never used a classic computer, then the iPad will be a much more enjoyable experience. The iPad was meant to bring technology to everyone, hiding all nasty details about how computers work. The iPad can be used by elderly people, by kids and I am sure they enjoy it much more than using a classic computer. Is it more capable than a computer? It depends on what you want to do with it.
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Am I the only one who finds one of the biggest limitations of an iPad setup-as-laptop-alternative to be the "lap" part? When in a cramped hotel room or sitting on a sofa or in a car, etc. I find the pro really annoying to use for anything more than an email or two. It's unsteady and obviously not the best writing experience. I'm glad I have it and it's great for non-business trips where I can use it as an "emergency laptop" but I can't imagine it pulling full time duty.
This is what I am planning to do with my iPad Pro too. When I am on vacation it should be my only device (along with my iPhone) that I take with me. If there is an emergency at work, I should be able to use it up to an extend that allows me to do my job. If I can achieve that with the iPad, then I will be happy.

The iPad needs three things for me if I am ever considering it to replace my MacBook Pro:
  • A full desktop class MS Office with Outlook
  • a Remote Desktop Client with full trackpad support
  • A virtualisation platform like VMWare..
 
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Thank you for taking the time to respond to this, and I apologise for upsetting you in any way.

Unfortunately, for every one poster like yourself who takes the time to do their own research and come to their own conclusions, there are easily many more here who are more interested in being first than in being right. You see this in the first few pages of many a forum post, and the dearth of quality in their responses is precisely the problem. They have an uninformed opinion about something they don’t understand and insist on proclaiming their opinion as being equally valid. Yet when time invariably proves them wrong, they instead choose to double down and deny that this is happening.

The reason why I disagree with them is because their understanding of what makes Apple tick is so fundamentally wrong that there really is little point in listening to what they have to say when the basis underpinning their arguments is not accurate to begin with.

Take for example the oft-parroted argument that Apple needs to offer a cheaper iphone, or risk irrelevance at the hands of cheaper Android alternatives. Am I the only one who sees the irony of self-styled pundits recommending that Apple follow a strategy which has clearly not been profitable for the competition? Or how Apple already has the ideal solution in their trade-in programme which not only makes newer iPhones more affordable, while also enabling a steady stream of second-hand iPhones that contribute towards growing Apple’s iphone install base? And yet year after year after year, “experts” continue to promote this as a panacea to a problem that Apple was never facing to begin with.

As I type this, I guess that maybe that I have gotten more than a little irritated by people making the same tired arguments repeatedly, and maybe that shows in the highly-opinionated tone I tend to take. Apple *needs* to make a round watch / folding fold / buy Netflix / random baseless claim or it’s doomed. But if they were to just take a little time to better understand Apple’s design-led culture, they would see why Apple hasn’t done any of these, and have instead created the iphone, ipad, Apple Watch, AirPods and currently working on Apple glasses.

I will see what I can do about my tone, but let’s just say I don’t have a habit of making promises I know I have a hard time keeping.
Thanks Abazigal, I appreciate your thoughtful reply.

One of the things I wonder about (I haven't tried to tease out the numbers, and I'm not sure if they're even readily available) is whether the increasing popularity of the iPad relative to the Mac (at least based on no. units sold) is not principally due (or at least not partially due) to people who use Macs moving away from them and to the iPad, but rather more due to these two phenomena:

1) Mac users adding the iPad as a second device. So it's not people moving away from the Mac, but adopting the iPad as an additional tool for specific uses.

2) A shift in the composition of the user base towards a much greater percentage of more casual users (as opposed to large percentages of Mac users moving away from the Mac to the iPad). The idea here is that, as the user base has greatly expanded, it's changed to have a much larger percentage of content consumers. Back when the Mac was relatively rare (compare to PCs), the few places where it dominated were with content creators (including scientists, coders, creatives, etc.), and these user-types remain.

So, in sum, I'm floating the idea that the reason unit sales of iPads have greatly overtaken those of Macs is not that Mac content creators are moving en masse to the iPad for content creation work, but rather because there has been a vast influx of more casual, content-consumer-focused-users into the Mac ecosystem.

Relatedly, in my opinion (those creatives who use touch screens for drawing aside), most content creaters need to input information using a keyboard and mouse or trackpad. And I would argue that, if you know you need a keyboard, the laptop (with its integrated keyboard and trackpad) is a better design. Most people, I think, don't like typing for extended periods on glass. And adding a separate keyboard and mouse or trackpad to an iPad is not as clean a system as a laptop. Given that I think the need for keyboard entry isn't going away anytime soon, I don't believe the desire for a laptop is going away anytime soon either. Hence, until we get direct neural interfaces, I think the laptop is here to stay alongside iPads.

Finally, it should be noted that you can't compare the desire for Macs vs. iPads purely by looking at number of units sold, because the former cost, on average, ~3x as much (that's why annual dollar sales figures for the Mac are actually higher than for the iPad). If they cost the same, the unit sales figures would certainly be much closer.
 
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I really like the new Air. Good upgrades, nice price... perfect notebook for daily operations and even for certain professional tasks, which doesn't require the greatest computing power. iPad might be more powerful, but its OS is still too limited and clumsy for multitasking compared to macOS. Even with keyboard and trackpad support.

I think we'll see the "MacBook" or "The New MacBook" (most likely) return with ARM based processors first.

Also to touch on what you said regarding performance of iPad/ARM vs. MacBook Air...

For those poo-pooing the iPad as a toy:

  • Swift playgrounds runs better on my 2017 iPad Pro 10.5" machine than it does on my 2020 i7 MacBook Air.

With no fan. The MBA works quite hard to run Playgrounds (fan quite audible).

If I didn't need macOS for some things, (Xcode, USB Peripherals, ability to run Virtual Machines occasionally), the iPad hardware would perform better for me. And that's an ARM chip from 2017 that has a max total system power draw around 12 watts.

I don't think some people realise just how far ahead Apple's ARM processors are in terms of performance when you're talking about the low-power (in terms of power consumption) devices. Given similar (or even smaller) cooling solutions and similar/slightly less (than intel) electricity, they will scale up to outperform most of the stuff intel has available just fine.
 
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I don't think some people realise just how far ahead Apple's ARM processors are in terms of performance when you're talking about the low-power (in terms of power consumption) devices. Given similar (or even smaller) cooling solutions and similar/slightly less (than intel) electricity, they will scale up to outperform most of the stuff intel has available just fine.
I think that's the key to it—what we can reasonably predict now is that Apple's future laptop ARM chips have a good chance of out-performing Intel's for low-power applications.

What I have a problem with are claims that what Apple will be introducing will outperform the top Intel H-series chips (especially for single-core applications), where you have MBP-level (as opposed to MBA) cooling. We won't know whether or not that's the case until the former are released and subjected to extensive real-world testing. And of course they will need to be tested not against current Intel chips, but rather against whatever Intel has released at the time. I've heard a lot of claims that internal (within-company) comparative testing has already demonstrated this, but when I ask for actual data, all I've gotten (thus far) is ... crickets. Until we see the needed supporting data, such claims remain unsubstantiated.
 
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What I have a problem with are claims that what Apple will be introducing will outperform the top Intel H-series chips (especially for single-core applications), where you have MBP-level (as opposed to MBA) cooling.

Why is that?

Apple are on a better manufacturing process, currently (even 2-3 years ago) getting far better outright performance than larger intel parts running at faster clocks with 2-3x the watts. With NO active cooling.

Yes, sometimes those performances are in niche workloads, but a lot of those "niche workloads" are the type that are actually pushing for throughput in the consumer market (video, AR, encryption typically).

Intel have done very little to advance performance (and certainly performance per watt) since Broadwell, circa 2014-2015, other than slight tweaks to the core and cranking more power into it. You're talking 5% per year if that, whereas Apple have been getting gains of 25-100% year on year for a decade.

Either apple are going to hit a major wall, or intel are going to get leapfrogged inside the next few years in a big way.

Given the state of intel management, internal staffing problems, and their history of product delivery since 2016 (10nm being pushed back repeatedly and still a disaster) I'm not banking them them suddenly having a miraculous turn-around before Apple eat their lunch.
 
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It's interesting to me to see people pushing iPad as a MacBook replacement. I used to routinely use an iPad, but since the iPhone has grown in size it's enough for most media consumption. For real work I will always want a MacBook or desktop. There's just no compelling middle use case between my iPhone and MacBook, so I gave my iPad to my kids. I guess there are some people that like working on an iPad, but I just don't get it - why bother with all the compromises?

because if it works for you, there are no compromises. With me, in my line of work, almost everything can be done via iPad. I don’t even need an iPad Pro honestly, I just like the design of the new pro.
 
It's interesting to me to see people pushing iPad as a MacBook replacement. I used to routinely use an iPad, but since the iPhone has grown in size it's enough for most media consumption. For real work I will always want a MacBook or desktop. There's just no compelling middle use case between my iPhone and MacBook, so I gave my iPad to my kids. I guess there are some people that like working on an iPad, but I just don't get it - why bother with all the compromises?

I am going to assume for these people, the benefits of working from an ipad outweigh the compromises.

For one, nobody has a monopoly on the definition of “real work”.

Second, rather than think them insane, why not try to understand just why they enjoy using an ipad?

So here’s a repository of people I have seen using their iPad for work thus far.

Writing

Photography

Teaching

Video editing

Podcast recording

Art

And these links were curated by me in 2018, shortly after the ipad pro was released. Imagine what could be accomplished now with the affordances of iOS 13 and the magic keyboard.

The intent isn’t so much to say you have to do all this on the iPad, but it certainly goes to show that the iPad is a lot more capable than the detractors are giving it credit for. If at the end of it all, you still feel that your Mac or Windows PC is still more suitable, then stick with it by all means.

However, if you wish to get more done on your iPad and more out of it, I do feel the iPad has come a long way. There are more apps and accessories available for it now, workflows are a lot more established and mature, and I think it’s just an amazing time we live in when I can record myself solving a word problem in notability on my iPad, then edit it in LumaFusion and upload it to YouTube directly. The same task would have entailed much more hardware and more steps on a PC.
 
Why is that?

Apple are on a better manufacturing process, currently (even 2-3 years ago) getting far better outright performance than larger intel parts running at faster clocks with 2-3x the watts. With NO active cooling.

Yes, sometimes those performances are in niche workloads, but a lot of those "niche workloads" are the type that are actually pushing for throughput in the consumer market (video, AR, encryption typically).

Intel have done very little to advance performance (and certainly performance per watt) since Broadwell, circa 2014-2015, other than slight tweaks to the core and cranking more power into it. You're talking 5% per year if that, whereas Apple have been getting gains of 25-100% year on year for a decade.

Either apple are going to hit a major wall, or intel are going to get leapfrogged inside the next few years in a big way.

Given the state of intel management, internal staffing problems, and their history of product delivery since 2016 (10nm being pushed back repeatedly and still a disaster) I'm not banking them them suddenly having a miraculous turn-around before Apple eat their lunch.
Sure, but these are just arguments for why you believe (or, if you prefer, expect) the ARM's laptop performance will exceed that of Intel's H-series. Your arguments aren't unreasonable, and you may be right in your predictions, but you may also be wrong.

My point is that it's important to recognize that any predictions that anyone (you, me, doesn't matter) is presenting on this are qualitatively different from (and are not a substitute for) having actual real-world testing data.

That's all I'm saying—that, in making these arguments, we all need to recognize the limitations we have in our current knowledge. That limitation will not be removed until substantial real-world testing data becomes available. This is not an unusual stance—it's same position any scientist or engineer would take.

For this very reason (i.e., that you don't really know what's going on until you actually do the testing), I would expect the Apple engineers have already generated quite a lot of this data. They very likely have put a variety of ARM prototypes into MBP's (and other devices) running MacOS and tested them extensively using a range of both synthetic and real-world benchmarks. But until we have access to this quality of data ourselves (and we will eventually have access to it, after an ARM MBP is released and tested), all we can do is speculate.
 
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Site is called "macrumors"....
Yes, it is. And as experienced members, we all should (and do) have the capability to discuss these rumors with intelligence and self-awareness. And self-awareness means recognizing our predictions are nothing more than informed speculation until we have the data to back them up. I.e., not being adamant about something when we don't (yet) have an objective basis for that adamance.
 
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Sure, but these are just arguments for why you believe (or, if you prefer, expect) the ARM's laptop performance will exceed that of Intel's H-series. Your arguments aren't unreasonable, and you may be right in your predictions, but you may also be wrong.

I suspect what’s more likely is that ARM chips can offer better performance than intel chips on Apple’s terms. Look at the Macs today and see where the bottleneck lies. You have all these powerful processors in thin and light form factors that clearly cannot offer sufficient cooling, and performance suffers as the chips keep throttling. Yet Apple clearly has little interest in making their devices any thicker to assist with cooling.

ARM processors would offer the promise of sustained performance in even thinner form factors than current MacBooks. We already see this in the iPads. The ability to potentially remove the fans as well means more space for batteries or other components.

That there are intel chips which can offer better performance than ARM chips under certain conditions may well be meaningless if Apple designs their products such that these conditions are never met.
 
I suspect what’s more likely is that ARM chips can offer better performance than intel chips on Apple’s terms. Look at the Macs today and see where the bottleneck lies. You have all these powerful processors in thin and light form factors that clearly cannot offer sufficient cooling, and performance suffers as the chips keep throttling. Yet Apple clearly has little interest in making their devices any thicker to assist with cooling.

ARM processors would offer the promise of sustained performance in even thinner form factors than current MacBooks. We already see this in the iPads. The ability to potentially remove the fans as well means more space for batteries or other components.

That there are intel chips which can offer better performance than ARM chips under certain conditions may well be meaningless if Apple designs their products such that these conditions are never met.
We may actually have some similarity in our views here, differing perhaps only by a matter of degree. I acknowlege it seems reasonable to expect ARMs will win out over Intel in products like the MBA, which are so thin (and thus have such limited cooling) that Apple can only use the lowest-powered (Y-series, 9W TDP) core-i5 Intel chips.

But as to the MBPs, note that Apple seems to be moving in a different direction, towards higher performance and more robust cooling (with the new 16", and perhaps also with the rumored 14") compared to the last generation. Consistent with this is the importance Apple has given to their Pro Workflow Team, which Apple said was heavily involved in the development of the 16" MBP. Granted, this new generation is still thermally limited, but the interesting question becomes whether its improved thermal solution is (will be) sufficiently robust to allow the Intel H-series enough headroom to exceed the performance of an ARM equivalent, even if the Intel chip needs more TDP to do it.

Of course, it's possible that, with ARM, Apple will reverse direction with the MBP, and once again favor thinness over performance (which seems to be your guess) (as for myself, I wouldn't venture to guess -- I could see it going either way).

Note also that, because of the graphics capabilities expected of the MBP, there's only so thin you can go, regardless of CPU, because of the need to have a dGPU. The TDP on the the Radeon 5500M (the upgrade option on the 16" MBP) is 85W, nearly twice the 45W TDP of the latest Intel H-series core i9's. I don't know if there's a lot to be gained in thinness by reducing your CPU TDP from, say, 45W to 25W if you still need 85W cooling for your GPU*. [Unless there's a low-powered ARM-equivalent of current dGPU's also waiting in the wings....] *Of course I have to add the caveat that Intel and AMD don't define their TDP specs in the same way, such that Intel's 45W may be an underestimate....

It will be exciting to see what Apple achieves with ARM in the laptop space.
 
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ARM processors would offer the promise of sustained performance in even thinner form factors than current MacBooks. We already see this in the iPads. The ability to potentially remove the fans as well means more space for batteries or other components.

I"m suggesting that they already do in a lot of segments - already they do under 15 watts.

What I want to know is why some people seem to think that only intel can scale above this sort of power limit.

Yes, the parts are not out yet, but based on performance of both design teams over the past decade I know where I'd be putting my money.

Just because apple are improving cooling in higher end machines doesn't mean they're sticking with intel. Any processor design will require power and cooling to get better performance, it's just a matter of how efficient they will use the power available in that product's thermal design envelope.
 
What I want to know is why some people seem to think that only intel can scale above this sort of power limit.

Know you were replying to Abazigal, but I'd say there are three camps on whether ARM can beat Intel at its own game (the higher-power regime):

1) Those who think Apple has (as in prototypes), or soon will, manage to scale ARM to create commercially-practical Intel-H-beaters (faster for both multi- and single-core when running MacOS apps in MacOS). The argument supporting this view is how fast ARM already is even at low power.

2) Those who think Apple hasn't, or won't, be able to do this in the next few years. The argument supporting this view is that, while ARM might scale well to higher power, actually beating Intel, especially in single-core performance in the mobile space is hard -- even AMD, a company with enormous experience in this area, has had trouble doing this.

3) Those who think either is possible but that, in the absence of substantial testing data on high-power prototypes, think we don't yet know enough to say.

As you know, I'm in camp no. 3.

Just because apple are improving cooling in higher end machines doesn't mean they're sticking with intel. Any processor design will require power and cooling to get better performance, it's just a matter of how efficient they will use the power available in that product's thermal design envelope.

Agreed. It may be that they improved cooling in their higher end machines because current TDP requirements pushed them to this; but this still leaves open the question I rasied about how to address GPU thermals, even with a lower-TDP CPU.
 
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