Apple's Limits on Third-Party 'Find My' Integration Under Scrutiny

[bollman]

May the best man win, what happened to that? Apple’s system would actually work. Tile is a terrible product I’ve owned 10 at least and none have ever worked well. Usually doesn’t work at all.

Then let Apples product win on its own accord. Now, it looks more like Apple is deliberately crippling Tile's product to make sure the Apple product works better.
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The problem with arguing "but security!" for everything is it's a very short path from "secure" to "user hostile", because you can argue that just about any user action has the potential to be "insecure". Security is always about tradeoffs, and since there's a very obvious way to implement reasonable security (like I've just described) the argument of restricting for "security" becomes less credible and looks a lot more like just a classic vendor lock-in and anticompetition scenario.

Wow, finally a well informed, balanced post! MacRumors must be slipping

I have no problem with Apple making a better version of existing products, thereby eliminating competition. What it looks like now though is Apple welcoming third parties into their platform, then watching what products users seem to like. They then move goalposts with the security argument while developing/releasing their own competing product that simply works better.

 

[cocky jeremy]

Sounds like a good way to stifle innovation.

It forces people to make their own stuff if they don't like it. Wouldn't that force them to innovate?
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Then let Apples product win on its own accord. Now, it looks more like Apple is deliberately crippling Tile's product to make sure the Apple product works better.
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Wow, finally a well informed, balanced post! MacRumors must be slipping

I have no problem with Apple making a better version of existing products, thereby eliminating competition. What it looks like now though is Apple welcoming third parties into their platform, then watching what products users seem to like. They then move goalposts with the security argument while developing/releasing their own competing product that simply works better.

Imagine that, Apple wants their own products to be the best on their own platform. Shocker.

 

[AustinIllini]

It forces people to make their own stuff if they don't like it. Wouldn't that force them to innovate?

So Tile is expected to make their own software platform, develop a phone, create and App Store.

Come on man, that's not innovation at all. Tile should waste a bunch of money trying to meet your standards for a platform? Yeah right.

 

[I7guy]

This is a tough situation for Apple. Providing enough access do third party apps can do their jobs, while at the same time limiting access so that nefarious apps masquerading as “find my” cant compromise the system or users data.

 

[WordsmithMR]

This is exactly how the process should work. Apple is being good by letting others have access to certain iPhone hardware and feature but sensitive information such as Location Data should be protected.

On one hand, it should be the consumer's choice. But on the other hand, that is exactly how we reached the world we live in. The consumer's have made too many poor choices, and that has resulted in a lot of negative consequences. Does that justification hold up in court? Probably not... but IANAL. So yea, I agree with this comment. Location Data is too sensitive, along with the many features Apple is improving in the near future.
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So Tile is expected to make their own software platform, develop a phone, create and App Store.

Come on man, that's not innovation at all. Tile should waste a bunch of money trying to meet your standards for a platform? Yeah right.

When you open up a retail location at a mall you conform to management's rules and restrictions. From hours to business practices and what not. You can't just set up shop and do what you please, even if what you are doing is within local and state legal guidelines. That analogy extends to both iOS and Android. They own the OS, and they have to right to place rules and restrictions that they feel are beneficial for their consumers or their business as a whole.

With so many privacy issues having occurred over the last few years... and each one getting exponentially worse, they want to give their business a positive spin, and this is how they do it. Whether you like it or not, they are within their right.

 

[AustinIllini]

When you open up a retail location at a mall you conform to management's rules and restrictions. From hours to business practices and what not. You can't just set up shop and do what you please, even if what you are doing is within local and state legal guidelines. That analogy extends to both iOS and Android. They own the OS, and they have to right to place rules and restrictions that they feel are beneficial for their consumers or their business as a whole.

With so many privacy issues having occurred over the last few years... and each one getting exponentially worse, they want to give their business a positive spin, and this is how they do it. Whether you like it or not, they are within their right.

In your analogy there are only two malls in the entire world and in order to survive most apps have to be in both malls.

If there are 2 malls in the entire world, they have their own shops with advantageous locations in their own malls, it is almost impossible for an indie app to compete.

 

[WordsmithMR]

In your analogy there are only two malls in the entire world and in order to survive most apps have to be in both malls.

If there are 2 malls in the entire world, they have their own shops with advantageous locations in their own malls, it is almost impossible for an indie app to compete.

Well, realistically there could be two malls in your area. Remember not everyone lives in metropolitan areas. If that was the flaw in the analogy, then it was a very small one. And just an FYI that whole analogy could be extended to any digital storefront, it would just depend on the product obviously.

 

[AustinIllini]

Well, realistically there could be two malls in your area. Remember not everyone lives in metropolitan areas. If that was the flaw in the analogy, then it was a very small one. And just an FYI that whole analogy could be extended to any digital storefront, it would just depend on the product obviously.

By the way, in this scenario there is no other way to reach your customers than through a mall. This analogy is falling apart fast, because what Apple is doing is incredibly unfair.

 

[Shirasaki]

The problem with arguing "but security!" for everything is it's a very short path from "secure" to "user hostile", because you can argue that just about any user action has the potential to be "insecure".

You know what, the END USER is the root of all of those “security problems” because they want tech to help providing better security, which is wrong in the first place.

For this Tile arguments, I would like to compare this case with 30% Apple cut. It’s the same idea applied to a different scenario, and Apple certainly has clear advantage over competitors. It’s just too bad that Tile don’t have the bargain power and resources to actually let Apple consider changing their decisions, unlike Netflix, Amazon and Microsoft.

 

[I7guy]

...
I have no problem with Apple making a better version of existing products, thereby eliminating competition. What it looks like now though is Apple welcoming third parties into their platform, then watching what products users seem to like. They then move goalposts with the security argument while developing/releasing their own competing product that simply works better.

This is all well and good. But (some) app developers are (or have proven to be) less than forthright. What's preventing Tile from turning rogue and now selling off your location data to law enforcement? That's my concern, maybe it's apples' as well.

 

[7149041]

This is all well and good. But (some) app developers are (or have proven to be) less than forthright. What's preventing Tile from turning rogue and now selling off your location data to law enforcement? That's my concern, maybe it's apples' as well.

Why is everyone acting like apps don’t have location data already? Everyone gathers it. This is not a new topic.

Here’s my wallet (Tile) location history. It doesn’t use Find My APIs just good old location permission. The thing is the app needs to run in the background because Apple has unclear and secret Bluetooth rules.

 

[canhaz]

Seems like the old EEE playbook created by our friends in Redmond. Embrace, Extend, Extinguish

 

[bollman]

Imagine that, Apple wants their own products to be the best on their own platform. Shocker.

If Apple's tactic for being "best on their platform" is crippling competitors and moving goalposts to keep competition out they may be in for a surprise: no third party will want to spend R&D knowing Apple might kill them off at any time and take over their segment.
That will leave the App Store completely safe and out of regulators interest: Apple only!

 

[pasamio]

Why is everyone acting like apps don’t have location data already? Everyone gathers it. This is not a new topic.

Here’s my wallet (Tile) location history. It doesn’t use Find My APIs just good old location permission. The thing is the app needs to run in the background because Apple has unclear and secret Bluetooth rules.

Everyone gathering location data is the problem Apple is trying to limit and Tile unfortunately finds itself in the situation of looking like a potentially abusive use of Bluetooth LE because of how often it wants to ping to see where it's devices are. As mentioned in the article, the COVID tracking apps hit a similar issue because again it looks suspicious. This is in response to badly behaving applications tracking people in the real world without their knowledge and why Apple have increasingly implemented functionality to make it apparent what apps are doing with location and Bluetooth behind the scenes.

I actually also see the limit that only one app tracks the BLE device as a sane thing otherwise you have two apps (Find My and the vendor app) polling the Bluetooth radios at the same time. That's just a waste of battery.

 

[dallastigers]

Yeah with this argument we can just stop discussing everything Apple does wrong

It wasn't an argument, but just stating a fact on choices we have. If 3rd party access is that important we have a choice and one that is the market leader. I think Apple puts out a lot of crap and makes poor choices, but In this case along with other privacy moves in 13 & 14 I think Apple is doing it right.

If i was a big Tile user and Android did it better I wouldn't hesitate to jump. I am actually wanting Apple to make it harder for 3rd party apps to access anything at least until they sure up areas, do better at catching holes themselves, and continue to make improvements on privacy communication and settings with apps that contain no ambiguity. Their settings have allowed an implied and/or explicit privacy that didn't in some cases exist in past. Although like i stated they are changing they had been making too many compromises with apps and even 3rd party cookies in Safari with ios 13 at first while giving user/customer poor choices or notification and having to have google point out some security and privacy issues with Safari's cross-site tracking that was allowing the opposite of Apple's claims. I wouldn't mind also being able to turn data off app by app on Wifi just like cell data and prompt me to give access (having a temporary choice would be even better) and definitely would like to see how much data each app is using on Wifi from last reset. Apps are the leaks right now especially with 3rd party diagnostics like Google & Adobe along with things like onelink, app link, and add this contacting/triggering multiple apps to make contact. I can remember seeing snapchat triggering some false diagnostic issue to get sent in. I am guessing they and others have just moved to other means to go around apple. Using a DNS filter/blocker that logs attempts has been eye opening over past several months. The new encrypted DNS features and support in 14 will be helpful.

With 13 betas It bothered me how many apps came up immediately asking for bluetooth access that had zero reason to have it. I was actually disappointed in Apple more than the apps wondering why the heck have this privacy setting before 13 when so many were finding ways to use it without asking, being launched, and/or with background turned off.

Same thing with catching apps accessing Wifi or cell network in background even when background is turned off including a couple of offloaded apps. Clipboard issue seen with 14 betas is also something Apple shouldn't have been allowing.

Kind of Same thing with screen recording Facetime calls. Why have a setting to allow or not allow taking live pbotos of facetime calls when person can just make a screen recording and other person will never know. Maybe it's changed as I don't use video for personal calls as much I used to and I know it can be recorded in other ways, but it has given some a false sense of stopping screen prints or recordings when it only stops one kind. Even if they can't stop it then notifying the other facetime user when a user starts to screen record seems like at least a compromise that should have happened along with wording in settings explicitly explaining turning off live photos still allows screen recordings.

 

[kyykesko]

Makes total sense. Apple wants to help small companies (because they're no threat to them) get started so if someone actually makes something working they'll just buy it off and - tadaa - we've got AirTags or whatever. At the same time they make life harder for any bigger competitors (==Tile for example). Two birds with one Apple. And the fanboys charge in to defend them as you can see from some of these comments.