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AWESOME!!!! A wealth of information! Thank you 'Firestarter"

When you say 6-core, I am thinking you are talking about the new version about come out?
 
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AWESOME!!!! A wealth of information! Thank you 'Firestarter"

No problem!

When you say 6-core, I am thinking you are talking about the new version about come out?

No - the current ones.

The current line is based around 4 and 6 core CPUs. So you can have 4, 6, 8 or 12 cores. The 6 core option is one of the upgrade operations on the base 4 core model.

For about the same cost you can get a single 6 core 'westmere' at 3.33GHz or 2 quad core 'westmere' at 2.4GHz (=base 8 core model). I'd expect the 6 core option to be quicker, since the CPUs are essentially 50% faster - and you'll appreciate this with stuff that doesn't parallelise quite so well.
 
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Awesome! Thanks once again....

I've been reading about the new processors that are about to come out. What is your opinion on those and will it be a large price hike? In other words is it worth the wait and will they make that big of difference?
 
Awesome! Thanks once again....

I've been reading about the new processors that are about to come out. What is your opinion on those and will it be a large price hike? In other words is it worth the wait and will they make that big of difference?

Over all there doesn't seem to be that big a change - although it's interesting to see that the current 4 core/3.2GHz configuration has now become a 6 core/3.2GHz configuration at a $420 lower price than the current 6 core option. That looks like a nice price/performance model to wait for.

The new machines should hopefully also have Thunderbolt, which I think is a worthwhile option to have.

Of course, there's a risk that Apple kill off the Mac Pro line. I doubt that will happen (at least this time 'round).
 
Never, apparently, in those 28 years did anyone teach you how to logically interpret data. Knowledge of PCs is not you problem here.



Only the PC market isn't shrinking, not for Apple, and not for global sales. The portable market is growing. You wish to equate PC's percent of computing sales to a declining market, when really its just the faster relative expansion of the portable market, while both markets are growing that you are seeing. Even the workstation market isn't easily described. Its up, its down. It cycles with the Intel chips. It moves with the general trend of the economy. It fluctuates seasonally. But it isn't clearly shrinking. It might in the future. You could have that hypothesis, and you might be right, but there isn't a whole lot of reason to be particularly confident in that hypothesis.



You're arguing not only in ignorance of the data, but against the data. The PC market is fine. Its actually growing. HP's problems are interesting, but they don't have much to offer us here. They haven't been able to compete with the mobile market, but they are still racking in a considerable amount of revenue. You're confusing the difference between missing out on more profit with being profitable. If HP can continue its PC market dominance, they will be fine. It would be better, of course, if they could increase their share of the mobile market, as well. That's what you're seeing and misinterpreting.



You keep saying this, but you've yet to even attempt to prove this assumption that is necessary for your entire argument is even true. I wonder why....



I'm sure the Mac Pro's time will come, as will every other product Apple offers right now. The point is, it isn't yet time.



You're rambling. I don't depend on the Mac Pro for my lively hood. Nor is such an emotional attachment needed to explain my argument.

You've done a lot of telling me you're right, but you haven't actually attempted to prove you're right. I'm left wondering if you even know the difference.


Do you just like disagreeing with anyone for any reason? :rolleyes: Right or wrong, it's darn annoying! :mad:
 
Over all there doesn't seem to be that big a change - although it's interesting to see that the current 4 core/3.2GHz configuration has now become a 6 core/3.2GHz configuration at a $420 lower price than the current 6 core option. That looks like a nice price/performance model to wait for.

The new machines should hopefully also have Thunderbolt, which I think is a worthwhile option to have.

Of course, there's a risk that Apple kill off the Mac Pro line. I doubt that will happen (at least this time 'round).

Thanks! This helps me tremendously!!! I will study my options
 
Mac Pro 2,1 Still fine.

Everyone forgets the biggest thing in computing. Nothing can happen faster than the weakest link. In the case of Mac Pro's, that is the Hard Drive. Bandwidth doesn't matter, memory doesn't matter, if you have a slow Hard Drive, your new 12 Core might be no faster than our 2,1 8-Core 3GHz with 15,000 RPM SCSI drives.

On our Design PC's - They have a better way to score speed of the machine. Our 8-Core T7500 is no faster than our 4 Core T7500, because at the end of the day, the Dell 5400 RPM drives suck the life out of the performance.

The only way to gain performance with off-the-shelf Hard Drives is to have Native 64 bit apps, capable of running on all cores, 64 GB of ram, Software that works in RAM instead of Hard Drive cacheing, and software that will multi-thread.

Adobe, AutoDesk Inventor, AuoCAD all basically give you crap performance because they fail to take advantage of the 64 bit and multi-core tech. The code to the lowest common denominator, make no packages that install based on machine capabilities, and thus you are on one core, hyper-threading off, HDD cacheing, and you get bad performance.

Speed and functions are simply limited to those factors, and often by poor coding and installations - or their desire for you to upgrade every year to FINALLY get a feature others have had for 6+ years.

Apples "Processor only" speed tests are irrelevant in the real world.



Needless to say, it'll be nice to run Lion [and the new IDL] on a machine with essentially 32 cores and a cool 64GB of RAM.
 
Also -

I need to upgrade my MAC Pro while it has value and is in our 3-5 year upgrade window. If Apple fails to update in January, the prices have become obsurd, as the current chips are selling for 50% less than original, so Apples Margin has doubled while performance is behind schedule.

With all of their CASH, they need only dedicate a small team to keeping the Mac Pro up-to-date and always being the first to market with the Power Workstations.

I find it pitiful that we can get Dell T7500's Dual Processors before apple updates to the same Intel Motherboard and Processor… Except Dell does not shrink the motherboard to make the PCIe slots all single width - you can install Double Width in most slots, Full 16x PCIe2, and in between they leave the legacy PCI and PCI-X slots just in case you don't feel like re-buying $10,000 in hardware every time Apple whimsickly throws out a technology… like the 9 months they had PCI-X and then dumped it, forcing us to upgrade hardware twice in one year.

Apple simply keeps giving us (the PRO Market) the finger…

Only Bonus - Autocad has made sure everything runs under bootcamp - so if Apple would just dedicate some energy to Mac Pro, I would be able to sell all of our T7500's and just use Apple's with Bootcamp.

This has essentially been on my nerves since 2008 - as most software has not taken advantage of the power-leaps, and therefore makes upgrading pointless…. From a 2007 Mid Model 3Ghz 8 Core (july 2007 Release)
 
I need to upgrade my MAC Pro while it has value and is in our 3-5 year upgrade window. If Apple fails to update in January, the prices have become obsurd, as the current chips are selling for 50% less than original, so Apples Margin has doubled while performance is behind schedule.

With all of their CASH, they need only dedicate a small team to keeping the Mac Pro up-to-date and always being the first to market with the Power Workstations.

I find it pitiful that we can get Dell T7500's Dual Processors before apple updates to the same Intel Motherboard and Processor… Except Dell does not shrink the motherboard to make the PCIe slots all single width - you can install Double Width in most slots, Full 16x PCIe2, and in between they leave the legacy PCI and PCI-X slots just in case you don't feel like re-buying $10,000 in hardware every time Apple whimsickly throws out a technology… like the 9 months they had PCI-X and then dumped it, forcing us to upgrade hardware twice in one year.

Apple simply keeps giving us (the PRO Market) the finger…

Only Bonus - Autocad has made sure everything runs under bootcamp - so if Apple would just dedicate some energy to Mac Pro, I would be able to sell all of our T7500's and just use Apple's with Bootcamp.

This has essentially been on my nerves since 2008 - as most software has not taken advantage of the power-leaps, and therefore makes upgrading pointless…. From a 2007 Mid Model 3Ghz 8 Core (july 2007 Release)

I upgraded from a 2006 Mac Pro (1,1) to the latest ones. The only reason so far to upgrade is the Hard Drive capacity support (I use SSDs though), replaceable CPUs (I did one replacement easily) and ECC RAM (Support up to 96GB, depends on the logic board). My Mac still outpaces many "normal" Macs and will upgrade in 3-5 years, which is logical money wise.
 
@Silverpr1

Dell T7500 should have at least 7200 RPM hard drives given that they use 3.5" drives. The software you referenced has all pretty much gone to 64 bit builds over the past couple years. Windows has always transitioned first, but OSX I think mostly transitioned over around 2009.

The PCI-X, PCI-E, constantly changing interconnect thing was dumb, but most people don't know how much some of those cards cost.
 
Can anyone answer this?

If I buy this possible new gen Mac Pro, how long before an iMac catches up to it in capability. 4 years? Trying to decide if it's better to buy a new MacPro every 4 years or a new iMac every 2 years.
 
Hard question...

If I buy this possible new gen Mac Pro, how long before an iMac catches up to it in capability. 4 years? Trying to decide if it's better to buy a new MacPro every 4 years or a new iMac every 2 years.

The answer is somewhere between "the Imac will never catch up" and "the Imac has already caught up".

It depends on your application(s), whether its bottleneck is CPU single thread performance, number of cores, GPU, I/O bandwidth, I/O expansion needs, etc.
 
The answer is somewhere between "the Imac will never catch up" and "the Imac has already caught up"
It also might not be long until the iMac has "surpassed" the Mac Pro in terms of performance - so that Apple could finally retire the latter. Especially since Apple hasn't really updated the Pro for quite some time now.

With some marketing magic ("look at those benchmarks how an iMac outperforms the Mac Pro - oh, and for extension you have Thunderbolt") they could pull it off...
 
for some....

It also might not be long until the iMac has "surpassed" the Mac Pro in terms of performance - so that Apple could finally retire the latter. Especially since Apple hasn't really updated the Pro for quite some time now.

With some marketing magic ("look at those benchmarks how an iMac outperforms the Mac Pro - oh, and for extension you have Thunderbolt") they could pull it off...

They could pull it off for lots of people - except those who need internal RAID, PCIe x16 slots, and/or low latency PCIe x4 slots. Or dual processors, or a system that doesn't crank the fans up under load, or....

Of course, Apple may decide that the latter group isn't profitable enough, and drop the tower.
 
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Give me the top of the lone 6 core sandy, min 24gb ram, swappable multiple drives (non thunder style), firewire for pro audio interface, and I'm in, no matter what form it takes.
 
Apple doesn't want some customers

One word. Customers.

:apple:

Apple's game plan seems to be to go for hordes of customers willing to spend several hundreds for an Itoy - and ignore the professionals willing to spend several thousands to tens of thousands for real professional level hardware and software.

That's OK - Adobe and Avid and Dell and HP and Lenovo will be happy to meet their demands.
 
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Apple's game plan seems to be to go for hordes of customers willing to spend several hundreds for an Itoy - and ignore the professionals willing to spend several thousands to tens of thousands for real professional level hardware and software.

That's OK - Adobe and Avid and Dell and HP and Lenovo will be happy to meet their demands.

As we've been predicting for years now, cheaper better competition is already cutting into Crappel's iToy market share. If Jobs was not the sole source of their dubious choice of direction, we'll soon see.

As will they. The fanbois will leave for greener pastures, the pro users will have been long gone, and they will learn the hard way.

The customer is always right. That is, the oldest customers who paid the most and have been around the longest.

:apple:
 
Apple's game plan seems to be to go for hordes of customers willing to spend several hundreds for an Itoy - and ignore the professionals willing to spend several thousands to tens of thousands for real professional level hardware and software.

And in a sense, would you rather sell 1,000,000 toys for 1$ of profit each or 1000 tools for 1000 profit each.

(yes, they come out to the same).

It's easier in the end to provide toys with mass market appeal than niche tools that will sell enough to justify the R&D put in it.
 
And in a sense, would you rather sell 1,000,000 toys for 1$ of profit each or 1000 tools for 1000 profit each.

(yes, they come out to the same).

It's easier in the end to provide toys with mass market appeal than niche tools that will sell enough to justify the R&D put in it.

Only a fool (or a pencil-pusher) would make that choice knowing that $1 customers will leave as soon as $.50 competition comes along. Especially with Apple's penchant for wars against technologies like flash and Blu-ray and at a higher price tag to lack those technologies to boot. Technologies competitors are (and will be in the future) only too happy to provide, and at lower cost.

While customers who've paid $1000 have far more invested in your company, and are much less likely to leave. Even after years of neglect and outright abuse.

:apple:
 
By that time, if he is not treated correctly, maybe Jony Ive will go to another company and bring with him the design that made me like Apple to begin with (in addition to OS X).

Even though I just bought my first Mac a month ago or so, I haven't quit using PCs. Though it will be interesting to see what happens in the near future.

I will say that I continue to have faith in Tim Cook.
 
Apple's game plan seems to be to go for hordes of customers willing to spend several hundreds for an Itoy - and ignore the professionals willing to spend several thousands to tens of thousands for real professional level hardware and software.

That's OK - Adobe and Avid and Dell and HP and Lenovo will be happy to meet their demands.

I agree. And on top of this, neglecting the upper end of the market could lose Apple it's high end and almost luxury status, and make it become a regular brand.

Long term it's a high risk for Apple to neglect the professional users.

Without the Mac Pro Apple would have too thin a spectrum to offer in computer products. The trend is more options, more models, not less.

This is why I can't imagine we won't see another Mac Pro. On the contrary, I could even imagine a particular effort in the neglected Pro segments.

iSteve was a dictator. He was the sun king of Apple. Everything revolved around him. Maybe there's now more time for more voices to be heard inside Apple.

It's just all cooking right now. We'll see in spring how the power battles turned out.
 
I agree. And on top of this, neglecting the upper end of the market could lose Apple it's high end and almost luxury status, and make it become a regular brand.

Long term it's a high risk for Apple to neglect the professional users.

Without the Mac Pro Apple would have too thin a spectrum to offer in computer products. The trend is more options, more models, not less.

This is why I can't imagine we won't see another Mac Pro. On the contrary, I could even imagine a particular effort in the neglected Pro segments.

iSteve was a dictator. He was the sun king of Apple. Everything revolved around him. Maybe there's now more time for more voices to be heard inside Apple.

It's just all cooking right now. We'll see in spring how the power battles turned out.

Thanks for the optimism. I think and hope so too.

:apple:
 
Uhhhh... i already have a dual 2.5ghz G5. I want something with higher clock speed. Doesnt Alienware sell an overclocked like 6ghz machine!? Also.. this sucks because we HAVE to buy a new Mac before the end of the year (tax reasons) so I'm gonna have to get the current $3499 machine.

Uh? Clock rates are of little importance when comparing differing chip architectures. A 1.4GHz Sun UltraSparc T2 processor will smoke your dual G5 (and my Quad G5 for that matter). What's important is actual performance. Hell, the current bottom of the line Mac Mini at 2.3GHz smokes my Quad G5 at most tasks, with only graphics-intensive games and 3D modelling running better on the G5. Ignore the clock rate and look at GeekBench scores and performance tests using PhotoShop, Avid or whatever software you use to get your work done.

Some years back I saw tests where a machine with a 150MHz processor slaughtered another with a 600MHz processor at floating point. The clock rate is only a useful measure of capability when comparing chips with the exact same architecture.
 
Careful Consideration

The forthcoming Sandybridge chips are certainly interesting and exciting, and will, without a doubt offer significant benchmark speeds over previous generation chips. Based on what information intel has provided, we know that the chips will be available in an 8 core configuration, with an 20 MB L3 cache, additionally, we know that processor upgrades mean improved FSB and the ability to use faster RAM. Simply put, this allows for a bigger, faster, stronger OEM machine. Whether, this warrants the purchase of a 2012 MP (assuming we see one come to market) is more a question that requires a detail analysis of ons current system configuration, how much it would cost to maximize that existing configuration, whether maximizing an existing mac pro would suit ones needs better than upgrading, and finally, if an upgrade to these processors is warranted given the work that one intends to accomplish on the new platform.

Beyond the chips, a MP12 will likely see thunderbolt on the back plane board, perhaps PCI 3.0, SATA 3/ 6gb/s connections standard for HDDs, and perhaps more 16x lane pci slots or an improvement over the current 16x (2) 4x(2) configuration.

We have also heard that the new mp12 may be in a rack mount format, thus making the case a more customized, more integrated tighter squeeze.

Additionally, one needs to consider the software that one is working with, and whether the bottle necks that effect workflow are really in the processor domain rather than the speed at which data moves from physical storage to random access storage and computation.

With the MP10, I don't necessarily feel that the bottlenecks that should be addressed are necessarily in the processor category, since most of the crucial data bottlenecks can already be overcome by third party upgrades and creative system design, e.g. more ram, an after market upgrade to a DP logic board, with 3.49 hex chips, a SATA 3 (or SATA 4, when available) raid hierarchy on 6g solid state drives, or even pci based split state drives. For example, I was able to stripe 10 120 gb OWC Extreme Pro 6 g SSD drives in Raid 0 on an Areca 1882ix-24 and get real world writes of 3.0 gb/s and 2.7 gb/s reads. Thunderbolt connections benchmarked in the .6 gb/s area. If you're into music production or video, consider taking advantage of parallel processing features available via x-grid if you use programs like logic or final cut (i.e. maybe you could just use logic for vi's and spread those across the grid), or perhaps if you feel plug-ins are a drain, a UAD Quad Omni (which has awesome sounding plugs) might be a cheaper solution than a new system altogether for your native plug ins.

Before taking the plunge on a new machine and expensive new intel chips, consider the following possible upgrades that may allow you to accomplish your work as quickly and efficiently, as on a new machine, before you hit the point of diminishing marginal returns. It is worthwhile to question, whether the software you use would benefit more from the new system design of the MP12 or whether you can spend money on upgrades now, and wait for whatever the next iteration of the MP may be.

From a software perspective unless you are a pixar animator, editing full resolution RED video, working with the highest levels of HD video, there are cheaper upgrade alternatives that may improve your workflow more than a new system. The MP12 likely isn't a MP10 killer, depending on the chips you have, how comfortable you are with a processor upgrades, and assuming you are willing to invest in your MP10 hardware. The MP12 on the new intel chips will be a worthwhile upgrade to consider for any MP prior to the MP10 Westmere models, especially, if OEM is your thing and you're uncomfortable under the hood.

Bottom line, before taking the plunge, take apple's advice from the 80's and think outside the box. Also, remember, apple care covers replacement of expensive parts, and apple designs its systems very conservatively to minimize the replacement of expensive parts. For example, Apple didn't put out a 12 core 3.33 ghz mp10 because the case design didn't phsycially allow for a heat sink design that would cool those chips to apples specification since they run at 130w vs 95w. Now, this doesn't mean those chips are incompatible or that those chips will even fail at higher temperatures, just that there is a higher probability of failure, when aggregated across all units sold, might mean that apple has to shell out for some expensive intel replacement chips - so that model doesn't come to market. Whether or not you think you can make those chips work, can be your decision, and not Apple's decision. If you think you can do better with your mac pro than apple did, you probably can, and that is something to explore before you scrap your existing hardware.
 
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