Apple's Thunderbolt to FireWire Adapter Rolling Out in Online Store

[MagnusVonMagnum]

1- Can you daisy chain through this adapter
2- Can you access a boot harddrive via Target mode through this adapter


God I hope so.

I didn't see any pass-through connector on that adapter (just another reason why daisy-chaining sucks) so it would have to be the last device in the chain (a real problem if you had planned on having a display port monitor connect there that also doesn't have a pass-through).

You can connect a USB3 device into a USB2 port, it'll just run at USB2 speeds.

I think he meant they should have a USB3 adapter for the Macs that only have Thunderbolt (i.e. so you can run USB3 speed devices on such Macs). I believe there is at least one hub product out there that does just that, but I haven't seen a portable adapter as such, yet. Being able to use USB2 speeds with USB3 devices is beside the point. He wants USB3 speeds on a Thunderbolt port adapter.

I hate to sound like a broken record, but I don't really get the complaint.

That is kind of obvious.

If you're already willing to pay big bucks for a MBP Retina, an extra $60 for a couple of cables isn't going to break the bank.

Price has NOTHING to do with it. The inconvenience of having to carry around adapters and dongles (which do NOT appear to have pass-through connectors so you can keep daisy-chaining devices) has EVERYTHING to do with it. You suddenly have all this crap hanging off the side of the MBP (they're not even just plug-in dongles, but 'wires' hanging off the side, which makes them a bit messy) and your already limited supply of ports is suddenly taken up by a stinking adapter that was never needed on ANY previous MBP models. Going 1/8" thinner is a REALLY poor excuse for not having enough ports, IMO. The darn things don't NEED to be that freaking thin and it clearly affects their ability to provide enough connections to be as functional as previous products. The point is that the thin factor was 100% UNNECESSARY. Even if they insisted on removing the optical drive, they could have used that space for a 2nd hard drive or a larger GPU or even more battery power. Instead, they just made it thinner which has no real practical benefit.

And the dongles themselves aren't going to add noticeable bulk, since an ethernet cable already *is* a cable (so you attach the dongle and now you have a slightly longer cable) and a FireWire drive already has that FireWire *cable*, so now you attach that dongle and you essentially have a slightly longer FireWire cable.

But you have to keep that dongle with you so that means either you're forced to use a carrying bag with a pocket for it or keep it in your own pocket and hope you don't forget to put it in your jeans or worse yet forget and put the adapter in the washing machine or something equally horrible. That can never happen if its built-in to the machine itself. Plus I see no pass-through for daisy-chaining on these devices so if it's taking up your Thunderbolt port, you've lost a port or have to play shuffle with your devices to make it the last device (and too bad if you have a monitor without a pass-through because you'll have to choose then).

 

[theluggage]

UK price £25, US price $29

$29 = £18.60 in theory, according to xe.com (not that any real-world money changer will give you that rate)

Then add UK VAT @20% (US prices don't include sales tax)

£18.60 x 1.2 = £22.32

...leaving £2.68 for any extra "cost of doing business" in the UK including all, some or fewer of: import duties, extra warranty obligations, higher labour costs (these puppies don't warehouse, pack and ship themselves).

They're not going to be laughing all the way to the bank.

 

[theluggage]

I think this would have been untenable on earlier Macs with only one Thunderbolt port which was also your only monitor port - not so bad on a rMBP with two TB ports, and HDMI and USB3.

However, the whole point of the rMBP is being forward-looking:

- Firewire is going to be obsoleted by USB3 at the low end and Thunderbolt at the high end. The TB-to-FW dongle is a stop-gap for people with legacy drives.

- Ethernet is more problematic - WiFi is not a replacement for gigabit Ethernet and I wouldn't normally use WiFi if a wired connection was also available. However it is on the decline and having a small Ethernet dongle is not the major trauma that some people seem to think (honestly, I've been carrying various dongles around for years and have managed to avoid losing them or putting them through the washing machine in significant quantities... some people...!)

...the rMBP is for people who are happy to head in that direction. That's why Apple have kept the "classic" MBP range for the moment.

What I thing Apple really needs to do is make a decent Thunderbolt dock that doesn't come bundled with a $900 display screen. The TB display is a great solution if you want the screen - two cables (power and TB) and then all of your network, Firewire and USB gizmos stay hooked to the back of the monitor, and your original power brick stays in your bag for use on the road. The only downside is if you don't want to use that particular monitor. Apple could probably fit all that functionality, sans display, into something a bit bigger than the regular power brick.

The Belkin and Matrox offerings are a day late, a dollar short, look crap and don't include a Magsafe power adapter.

 

[g8rjohns]

Store Availability

Anyone finding these in the retail stores yet?

 

[Mousse]

For a portable machine, thinner and lighter are ways to make it more portable.

But if having the ports built in is more important to you than increased portability (they aren't more important to me, so your obsession with having the built-in ports doesn't drive my decision), then I can understand why you wouldn't be interested in the thinner, lighter machines.

Less port obsession and more bang for the buck. I've got nothing against making a machine thinner and lighter. But if it comes at the expense of functionality, then I lose interest. It's a compromise. I'm pretty sure could build a machine with all the ports of a MBP and the thinness of the Air, but the cost would be so prohibitive only the 1% could afford one. For me the difference between .7 inches and .5 inches, and 3lbs and 4lbs is insignificant. For this reason, I go for the get bang for the buck MPB over the svelte Air.

 

[Fandongo]

4G, for now, is just a marketing gimmick as 3G hasn't yet achieved 100% penetration rate.

Possibly, but if you tether from a device that can pull 20Mb/s, Comcast/Charter/Warner can eat a bag of Richards.

Really??? I thought TB was already out before Lion shipped on Macs. Oh wait. This adaptor is useless on previous-generation Macs since they had these ports built-in. My bad.

This adapter would have been useless on previous Macs had they not thrown away the expresscard adapter on the 15" in 2009.

Daisy chaining RAID FW800 drives and sticking a FW400 audio interface at the end was a STUPID thing for Apple to force audio people to do.

So...if I had a February or October MBP, I would buy it. If I owned an Air I would buy it.

Agree with you on Gb/e. Honestly I would buy the fat macbook if they removed the CD drive (nothing "super" about a drive too stupid to be blu-ray). Then they could add the HDMI/extra USB/TB ports... and you could get 1GB/s RAID 0 - 2 Terabytes if money is no object.

 

[coolspot18]

How?

Popout connector like the old 3COM/USR modems?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XJACK

They did it 20 years ago, I don't see why something like this couldn't be incorporated in the current gen MBAs.

----------

Then it wouldn't be a MacBook Air. NO MBA has ever had an ethernet port or optical drive because the idea is that it would be a wireless device.

I know, but WiFi doesn't really cut it for a lot of things.

Why? when most of the connections will be WiFi, why bother?

Because there are times you need to transfer large files - i.e. Time Machine backups.

And the fact Apple doesn't have a dock makes it all the more difficult to hook up a highspeed connection at home.

 

[JAT]

But you have to keep that dongle with you so that means either you're forced to use a carrying bag with a pocket for it or keep it in your own pocket and hope you don't forget to put it in your jeans or worse yet forget and put the adapter in the washing machine or something equally horrible.

I think he meant: You have to have a cable already. FW and Eth are not wireless. Add the dongle to the cable you already carry. I've never found it wise to rely on my destination to have a cable for me.

And for the rest, much more horrible for a phone. Everyone seems to tolerate that in their pocket, and take it out. Also: take off your shoes before climbing in bed. Lots of stuff to remember.

 

[hipnetic]

But you have to keep that dongle with you so that means either you're forced to use a carrying bag with a pocket for it or keep it in your own pocket and hope you don't forget to put it in your jeans or worse yet forget and put the adapter in the washing machine or something equally horrible. That can never happen if its built-in to the machine itself. Plus I see no pass-through for daisy-chaining on these devices so if it's taking up your Thunderbolt port, you've lost a port or have to play shuffle with your devices to make it the last device (and too bad if you have a monitor without a pass-through because you'll have to choose then).

Jeans pocket?!? WTH?!? Do you really leave your house with your MacBook without carrying it in a laptop bag?

Like I said...keep the FW dongle connected to the FW drive's cable and keep the ethernet dongle connected to the ethernet cable. If you leave your house, you should bring the ethernet cable with you (in case your destination doesn't have one). Voila! The ethernet cable will have that TB-to-ethernet dongle already attached.

 

[CmdrLaForge]

I would like to know how well it works with FireWire Audio Interfaces.

Let's hope it does. Anyhow, it's worth buying to find out!

Well, before buying a rMBP that might be a good idea to know it first.

 

[Talarspeed]

I am waiting for one of these bad boys, will solve a lot of headaches

http://www.belkin.com/thunderbolt/

Sweet! I will definitely look into that!

 

[MagnusVonMagnum]

However, the whole point of the rMBP is being forward-looking:

- Firewire is going to be obsoleted by USB3 at the low end and Thunderbolt at the high end. The TB-to-FW dongle is a stop-gap for people with legacy drives.

If Firewire were only about drives, I'd agree with you. USB3 and TB are ultimately faster there and so one would be good to replace their aging drives with one of them instead. BUT the real problem are for those that have FW audio interfaces. Within the industry they're everywhere and reasonably priced for their function. Yes, TB ones are appearing, but they are high-end and expensive just like TB drives. Maybe it's too specialized for a general argument, but these devices aren't just going to disappear overnight and these machines are called Macbook "PRO" models. Yes, they have the legacy versions with USB3 and FW still, but if you want the higher resolution screen, your SOL. I don't know why they've made it either/or but this is sadly becoming typical of Apple. You buy what they offer or you don't buy at all. I still maintain if OSX was available for other companies' hardware, this lack of choice/options from Apple wouldn't happen (or if it did, someone else would fill the gap including gaming Macs, which we just never see).

I agree they need a good dock. If I could get a reasonably priced TB dock with USB3, etc., I'd be that much more likely to buy a 17" MBP while I can still get one since it would remove the biggest obstacle (lack of USB3).

Jeans pocket?!? WTH?!? Do you really leave your house with your MacBook without carrying it in a laptop bag?

I did before I settled on which bag I wanted to buy. You just have to be careful. Besides, many college students use backpacks instead of bags, etc. and there's always a chance the dongle is going to get lost. It's inconvenient either way. If you attach it to only one device, you then have to have that device with you to retrieve the dongle if you need to use it for something else (e.g. Oops! I forgot my FW dongle on my backup drive at home! ARRGGH). And they still don't have a pass-through connector so you're using up a TB connector. Buy one FW adapter and one Ethernet adapter and you have zero TB connectors left.

I'm just saying it would have been better to simply leave the old thickness and keep true Ethernet ports, at the very least, if not FW as well like they used to. They already freed up a lot of space getting rid of the optical drive and so this is not an issue of they didn't have enough room to do it right. This is an issue of them being obsessed with making things as thin as possible and that's a downright STUPID obsession. The notebook isn't going to fit in your pocket so absolute thickness doesn't need to be a design priority. It makes things overheat faster as well (and driving that Retina display is going to tax the GPU to the edge).

 

[dyn]

One more thing... "Yet another device" defeats the touted "portability".

That device (=the tb-GbE or tb-fw800 adapter) you are talking about is very narrow. The only thing that device does is extend that very thick fw800 or ethernet cable for about 15 cm. What you are now saying is absolutely idiotic and contradictory because it means that wires also defeat the touted portability and thus your entire argument is completely moot. In your point of view we don't need an ethernet port because we can go wireless. Same for fw800. Et voila, that is exactly what the Air is

However, I could never do without the FW800 port since it drives my virtual machines.

You just stated you could

And for you all iCloud and other SSD worshippers, just explain where do I put 180GB+ worth of virtual HDDs in the small internal rMBP SSD?

On the ssd. You can opt for a 512GB one which is worth the money because the ssd can deliver the amount of iops virtualisation requires. It is why I'm using ssd's for more than 3 years now. My Air uses a 256GB ssd and the only big things are iso files for the vm's, the vm's themselves and my music library.

4G, for now, is just a marketing gimmick as 3G hasn't yet achieved 100% penetration rate.

That entirely depends on where you are. In Europe the 3G coverage is nearly 100%. Some countries are doing very well with the 4G coverage in the form of LTE. The biggest problem is that LTE in the USA uses different frequencies than the rest of the world (there are some exceptions it seems) so 4G on the iPad is only useful in the USA.

This adaptor is useless on previous-generation Macs since they had these ports built-in. My bad.

Previous MBA's didn't have fw800 ports nor ethernet ports built-in. There only was a usb-ethernet adapter so no fw800 at all. There was also this famous MacBook with no fw800 on it. Current MBP models all have the ethernet and fw800 port like their previous models. This adapter is only useful on MBA and MBPr since those are the only 2 Mac models without ethernet/fw port built-in.

As has already been stated in this thread several times, the Air doesn't have it because the Air is too thin to fit it. Also, ethernet is a necessary component of yesterday's computers, and Apple usually leads the way in dropping older technologies.

Nitpicking: wifi uses ethernet. Anyway, in reality it is the other way around: a network cable is much better because wifi sucks enormously due to overcrowding and others. It is one of the most inefficient and ineffective protocols because more than half of the traffic is only stuff to make the connection work (aka overhead). The other part is the actual data. Cables are the only way to go if you want a fast, stable, secure and trouble free network. If you want to have continuous headaches than by all means go wireless because those will make your life a living hell (try troubleshooting wireless problems...).

 

[AidenShaw]

...a network cable is much better because wifi sucks enormously due to overcrowding and others. It is one of the most inefficient and ineffective protocols because more than half of the traffic is only stuff to make the connection work (aka overhead). The other part is the actual data. Cables are the only way to go if you want a fast, stable, secure and trouble free network. If you want to have continuous headaches than by all means go wireless because those will make your life a living hell (try troubleshooting wireless problems...).

Exactly why I wired my home with Cat6 jacks everywhere.

Transfer a 47 GB ISO image of a BD over WiFi - please, poke me in the eye with a sharp stick instead, it hurts less.

 

[AppleScruff1]

Isn't this an adapter cable to use from one little used format to another?

 

[AidenShaw]

Isn't this an adapter cable to use from one little used format to another?

True, but Apple fans are used to paying extra for using Apple proprietary¹ adapters to use their systems.


¹ where "Apple proprietary" includes "public standards which nobody but Apple supports to any significant degree".

 

[grrrz]

I think standard USB was 2.5 watts, and I want to say FireWire could do 10 watts without breaking a sweat so 7 watts sounds reasonable for an adapter.

Really any external HDD or audio adapter or related device should do fine at those power levels. The problems with powered ports begin to show up when it comes to charging devices like the iPad (the square iPad charger is a 10 watt device). Another option would be a powered USB hub that plugs into the wall for additional charging power.

My motu ultralite mk3 draws 12W according to the manual.
some people say 7W was already the standard for recent macs, and my motu works bus powered on a recent mac, so does it work underpowered?
problem is, there's not one single solid information available anywhere on the internet, which is really annoying (apple says 7W minimum, which doesn't say anything), so we'll have to wait for people to test it, won't we?

 

[hipnetic]

Anyway, in reality it is the other way around: a network cable is much better because wifi sucks enormously due to overcrowding and others. It is one of the most inefficient and ineffective protocols because more than half of the traffic is only stuff to make the connection work (aka overhead). The other part is the actual data. Cables are the only way to go if you want a fast, stable, secure and trouble free network. If you want to have continuous headaches than by all means go wireless because those will make your life a living hell (try troubleshooting wireless problems...).

Well, I was actually joking a little. I certainly think that it would be premature for Apple to completely drop gigabit ethernet support. When I need to transfer large files or, in the case of my nettop PC in my living room which I use to play high-bitrate Blu-ray rips over the network, ethernet is a must.

But, again, we're talking about laptops here. The point is to be portable, and over 90% of the time (for me, closer to 99%) I'm using wifi in my house, because I don't want to be chained to a desk. I want to take my laptop to any room of my house and not have to "plug in". It's bad enough that I have to occassionally plug in to recharge the battery and am chained to the wall for a while.

Since any of these things people want (gigabit ethernet, FireWire, USB 3.0), already require plugging into something external (which should be a temporary situation with a laptop - otherwise, you should be buying a desktop computer), having to stick an extra dongle onto the existing ethernet/FireWire cable hardly seems like a deal-killer.

And while some would argue that they'd happily trade off a millimeter in extra thickness of the Air in exchange for a built-in ethernet, others who only need seldom use of ethernet (if at all), would likely disagree. And let's not forget that removing seldom-used larger ports also can free up space which could be used for a larger battery. If I had the choice between having longer battery life and needing a dongle for ethernet and FireWire, or having a bit less battery life and having built-in ethernet, I'd take the former.

One thing I will say is that I think a case could be made for them needing to have a 2nd Thunderbolt port on the Air (which might require dropping the 2nd USB port, and that would not be worth the trade-off IMO), and/or get a low-cost Thunderbolt hub on the market.

 

[g4cube]

RE: FireWire bus power

There really is no standard from one Mac product line to another. Some of the early desktops had 12w, while some of the more recent iMacs and Macbooks only provide 6 or 7 watts. Contrast that witth most Windows laptops that only had the 4-pin connector, providing no power at all.

Nice that the new Thunderbolt to FireWire adapter provides 7 watts. It will certainly keep some peripherals happy.

I'm entertained by some commenters who think one can create a full-fledged Thunderbolt port from a legacy FireWire port.

Over the years, have seen many interesting accessories, for both Macs and Windows laptops. I've seen the PC Card Ethernet adapters which required a dongle cable (w/replacements costing $20+ for a passive cable), clever protruding jacks, proprietary jacks, etc. On some of the new Ultrabook laptops, I've seen some interesting ways to provide a full fledged RJ45 that seems to defy the thinness - the jack expands to accommodate a standard Ethernet cable.

To me, the $29 adapter cables seem quite reasonable. If I need the connection, I have the capability when I need it. Sure, if I forget to carry one with me I'm out of luck. That's why I have a gadget bag with all sorts of various adapters that are handy when I am traveling. Just like most experienced travelers. Sure would be nice to have the port built in, but not if only a small segment of users need it.

More useful in the discussion thread might be info about what the adapters can and cannot do. Not whether it is "worth it".

My FireWire Adapter is still finding it's way to my doorstep.

 

[lozion]

My FireWire Adapter is still finding it's way to my doorstep.

Let us know what bandwith results you get

 

[dyn]

But, again, we're talking about laptops here. The point is to be portable, and over 90% of the time (for me, closer to 99%) I'm using wifi in my house, because I don't want to be chained to a desk.

I think that's what most Air users will do: use wireless technologies such as wifi and bluetooth. They couldn't care less about these adapters. Thinness en lightness make more sense for these kind of users.

Since any of these things people want (gigabit ethernet, FireWire, USB 3.0), already require plugging into something external (which should be a temporary situation with a laptop - otherwise, you should be buying a desktop computer), having to stick an extra dongle onto the existing ethernet/FireWire cable hardly seems like a deal-killer.

Especially when the adapter isn't all that big. Quite a lot of people keep it on their ethernet/firewire cable anyway. I use my GbE adapter the most at home, at work I tend to use the wireless mostly because it has good speed and good coverage for what I need on the machine at that place.

And let's not forget that removing seldom-used larger ports also can free up space which could be used for a larger battery. If I had the choice between having longer battery life and needing a dongle for ethernet and FireWire, or having a bit less battery life and having built-in ethernet, I'd take the former.

If you go dongle you get battery life AND ethernet/firewire I still think that Apple can increase battery life by changing the shape of the Air a little. Go from wedge-shape to MBPr-shape. The thicker front creates more space for battery cells and also increases stability of the unibody frame which should kill the cracking problems completely.

One thing I will say is that I think a case could be made for them needing to have a 2nd Thunderbolt port on the Air (which might require dropping the 2nd USB port, and that would not be worth the trade-off IMO), and/or get a low-cost Thunderbolt hub on the market.

If Apple finds some sort of a solution where you can use GbE and an external monitor that isn't the Thunderbolt Display then that would be fine I suppose. I think having a usb3-GbE adapter would do just that. The firewire area is a bit of a debate. Quite a lot of devices went from firewire to usb and with usb3 those devices get more bandwidth. Thunderbolt is another contester, we already see quite a lot of media devices going thunderbolt. It may take some time though, we'll have to see next year I think.

 

[theluggage]

Yes, they have the legacy versions with USB3 and FW still, but if you want the higher resolution screen, your SOL.

You're only really SOL if you need Firewire and Gigabit Ethernet and a non-Apple-Thunderbolt external display that won't run off HDMI (in which case you just ran out of ports).

That's where a hub would come in.

Yes, TB ones are appearing, but they are high-end and expensive just like TB drives.

...aren't they switching to USB3, then?

 

[fompsweeva]

People here seem to be forgetting the pro video and audio industries.

Apple sell computers that run Logic. Logic talks to audio interfaces. The industry standard for audio interfaces is Firewire. Thus the need to get firewire into their computers.

Apple sell computers that run Final Cut Pro. Final Cut Pro talks to video cameras and capture devices. A lot of these devices use Firewire as a transfer protocol.

 

[g8rjohns]

TB / FW Just arrived

Let us know what bandwith results you get

Will put out speed results as soon as I get it hooked up.

 

[g8rjohns]

Will put out speed results as soon as I get it hooked up.

5.53GB in 65 seconds = 85'ish MB / sec. From G-Safe to rMBP 2.6 / 8 / 512SSD