iPod AppleTV: Converting DVD's with or without letterboxing via Handbrake?

[Krevnik]

You are using WAY OVERKILL on the bitrate. You can't see the difference above 800kbps for SD adn 1000kbps for HD. Anything more is a waste of space.

I disagree with this. I personally use 1200-1800 Kbps for SD (1200 for H.264, 1800 for MPEG-4), and 4Mbps to 6Mbps H.264 for HD content. Then again, my encodes tend to stomp all over SciFi and Comedy Central's encodes for TV shows in quality.

If you think 1Mbps is enough for HD, think again, I can show you two 720p encodes for Fifth Element, one at 2.6Mbps and another at 4.4Mbps, where the 2.6Mbps encode has obvious visual artifacts not present from the source Blu-Ray disc. Flat colors, details wiped away by un-natural looking gradients on Willis' forehead... A bunch of things that are noticably wrong, but at least H.264 isn't really blocky (unless you look at the background a lot).

Big mistake encodeing above iPod maximums. In future you will regret it cause none of your work will be portable. You may not care now, but in future either you will or your kids or their kids will.

more than 640 wide is not wise.

This I agree with. As things move more towards HD in the future, why throw away the SD encodes when they can be your portable copy?

 

[lostless]

This thread has become confusing and full of misinformation.
Here is the simple answer. You can use hand brake or mediafork since they both pretty much the same thing. In this im talking mpeg 4, H.264 will look better, but is slower to encode. So here we go

1. Let handbrake crop automatically for you. That means let it cut out the letterboxing.

2. leave the resolution at 720 width to obtain maximum vertical resolution. Its a long winded explanation for that. Basically movies (films, not video) are stored stretched at 480P in a square picture. We dont want a square picture out, hence widescreen. Look up anamorphic video for more info.

4. Use 23.97 FPS for film and 29.97 FPS for video. Cars movie would be film

3. Dont use deinterlacing. No need for most film dvds. Since after the first 6 months of dvd being out, most films are stored progressively and make the dvd player do all the intelacing for SD TVs. Some older dvds may need need deinterlacing as do most video sources (tv shows, DVD special feature, Films from VHS, ect). Try playing the DVD in apples DVD player with deinterlacing turned off. If you see wierd lines horizontal lines in moving parts, it needs ot be deinterlaced, otherwise, it doesn't need it
4. Bit rate is up to you. 1500kbs and up is near dvd, kids will probably never notice. cars may be animation, but it not treated as it is, since every frame is different, and simulates real life. 1000kbs is a good average. looks great on slow moving parts and kinda muddy, but watchable, on fast motion. 2 Pass will just clear up some blokiness/muddiness, but will double the encoding time.
Hope all this helps. Ive ripped pleanty of movies for my ipod, to view on my tv. Im sure the apple TV will fuction the same but with a much better picture quality (progressive out and component/HDMI out).

 

[Multimedia]

What Is MediaFork?

I know realise this after reading the Apple Specs:

1) What is the difference between HandBrake and MediaFork?
I've got the latest HandBrake and I'm just about to download MediaFork.

2) What is the difference between H.264 and MPEG-4 Output Setting Codecs?
I just ran a quick test using the opening montage from Most Haunted and the MPEG-4 seemed a lot clearer than h.264. Shouldn't it be the other way around, with h.264 having better picture quality then an MPEG-4 file?

3) Also on the above question about H.264 and MPEG-4 I'm getting conflicting reports on which one to use.

Again, Thanks for any help.

My take on the DE-Volution of Handbrake called MediaFork after a few minutes with it:

Note to author:

I have seven requests that I wish you would make fundamentally. I am a long time user - have encoded thousands of mp4s with Handbrake. I can't understand the best place to make this request so please feel fre to delete this post if you don't like it here.

1. In MediaFork the Average bitrate is no longer dynamic in the grey area below an active Target size quantity.

2. Could you add an interactive grey Target Size to when Average bitrate size is active please?

3. Make 2-pass encoding the default checkbox ON

4. Make Framerate default 29.97 instead of "same as source" because when you encode with "same as source" it isn't "same as source" it's 24fps.

5. Please Please Please switch the Deinterlace Picture checkbox default to ON CHECKED ON ON ON ON ON PLEASE for the love of GOD.

6. Is it hard to make the aspect of HDTV Images 640 x 360 instead of 624 x 352? What's up with that bug? Same problem with SDTV. Why can't it be 640 x 480 instead of 544 x 400?

7. If there's a DVD IMage mounted, MediaFork won't let you open an image somewere else so you have to quit the application and relaunch it before you can be presented with a real browse dialog box.

I'd say MediaFork is a definite step BACKWARDS from Handbrake so far. Why turn your back on a proven brand name? I don't get it.

I just posted this on the Handbrake Forums Bug Section. Check it out with this link.

 

[Multimedia]

Krevnik & I Are Both Right

[/QUOTE]

I disagree with this. I personally use 1200-1800 Kbps for SD (1200 for H.264, 1800 for MPEG-4), and 4Mbps to 6Mbps H.264 for HD content. Then again, my encodes tend to stomp all over SciFi and Comedy Central's encodes for TV shows in quality.

If you think 1Mbps is enough for HD, think again, I can show you two 720p encodes for Fifth Element, one at 2.6Mbps and another at 4.4Mbps, where the 2.6Mbps encode has obvious visual artifacts not present from the source Blu-Ray disc. Flat colors, details wiped away by un-natural looking gradients on Willis' forehead... A bunch of things that are noticably wrong, but at least H.264 isn't really blocky (unless you look at the background a lot).

Perfect example of how two people who are both doing everything right can legitimately both be right about two completely different encoding practices. Neither of us are "wrong". In fact we're both right.

Krevnik is shooting for something that looks almost the same as the original and for that result he is willing to be iPod incompatible and to eat huge amounts of hard drive/Blu-ray DVD space.

I on the other hand am shooting for the best I can get that will still load on iPods - i.e. AppleTV compatible as well - AND be archivable on CDs AND not break the bank on hard drive/Blu-ray/DVD storage space.

Krevnik is looking for the slightest flaw in his pristine replicas of source.

I am listening for great sound and looking for an image I can comprehend - albeit soft - to go along with that sound.

This I agree with. As things move more towards HD in the future, why throw away the SD encodes when they can be your portable copy?

 

[MacBoobsPro]

Still at it eh Multimedia?

Thanks again for the chat just starting second pass now.

Do you think my MB CoreDuo 1.8 would be quicker at encoding than my Dual 1.8 G5? Does RAM and VRAM make a difference?

 

[Multimedia]

Yeah MediaFork Is A Poser. Stick With Handbrake.

Still at it eh Multimedia?

Thanks again for the chat just starting second pass now.

Do you think my MB CoreDuo 1.8 would be quicker at encoding than my Dual 1.8 G5? Does RAM and VRAM make a difference?

I think so. Not 100% certain. Compare the two by encoding the same movie with the same settings on your 1.8 CD MB and report back. I'd like to know. Should have 1GB of RAM in there minimum to get better performance. 2GB would be best.

 

[MacBoobsPro]

I think so. Not 100% certain. Compare the two by encoding the same movie with the same settings on your 1.8 CD MB and report back. I'd like to know. Should have 1GB of RAM in there minimum to get better performance. 2GB would be best.

Theres 1GB in the MB and 2GB in the G5. G5 will probably win looking at the specs again. Plus i would need to copy it over to the G5 after encoding so theres a few minutes there too. Thanks again for your help.

 

[Multimedia]

Get Your Two Node GB Ethernet Local LAN Up Booby

Theres 1GB in the MB and 2GB in the G5. G5 will probably win looking at the specs again. Plus i would need to copy it over to the G5 after encoding so theres a few minutes there too. Thanks again for your help.

Don't you have them networked together with an ethernet cable? Copying from one to the other takes about 5 seconds that way. You can share everything between them as if each is local on the other. You don't know what you're missing. You can even write the mp4 encode on your G5 while using the MacBook to do the encode. Your G5 HD(s) can appear and behave as local on your MacBook. You gotta get a network going. In your case you don't even need a switch unless you have a router already with a switch built in. But you want a GigaBit switch if you do go that way T1000 NOT T100/10.

Simplest is just a direct connect with any old Cat 5 Ethernet cable.

And no, I think you're mistaken. I would expect the MB to do it faster. MacBook analysis (pass 1) and writing (pass 2) framrates/sec are probably more like 140fps on the MacBook vs. 60-70fps on your old Dual 1.8GHz G5. Please do it and let us know. Don't be selfish. We all need to know. I helped you. Now you help us please?

 

[MacBoobsPro]

Don't you have them networked together with an ethernet cable? Copying from one to the other takes about 5 seconds that way. You can share everything between them as if each is local on the other. You don't know what you're missing.

Yeh its all 'Airported' its ok actually. Using your settings the filesizes are smaller so wont take half as long as my 2GB files before. I can also 'Target' the MB via FireWire.

Infact the crazy thing at the moment is. My movies are stored on my G5 (upstairs) but I 'share' them wirelessly in iTunes via my MB that is hooked up to the TV. The MB HD isnt big enough to keep all movies 'local'.

Roll on AppleTV.

 

[Peace]

My iMac C2D 2.33 w/2 gigs RAM encoded the same file about 150% faster than my G5 PPC dual 2.3 w/4 gigs RAM.

Tested that one a long time agf course that mileage could change depending on graphics card,encoder used etc..

 

[HelixOmnimedia]

Hello,

Been following with this thread with interest, and a few others which has probably confused me more.

I feel like an idiot asking these question, as they've probably been answered in a way a don't understand.

I'm using HANDBRAKE and not the newly released MEDIAFORK.

640x??? - is a given its been mentioned throughout numerous of threads.

MPEG-4 or H.264 - I just did a test with 30sec clip and can't tell the difference. I've been watching it on my Powerbook, but it will be played onto a tv with the AppleTV. Which one should i use?

Both Test were set at: Framerate: 29.97, 2Pass-encoding, 1500average bitrate
I used for x264 (Main Profile) for the H.264 Test, but that was choosen as default. Again, which one should it be: x264 (Main Profile) or x264 (Baseline Profile)

THANKS for any help.

 

[gkarris]

Hello,

Been following with this thread with interest, and a few others which has probably confused me more.

I feel like an idiot asking these question, as they've probably been answered in a way a don't understand.

I'm using HANDBRAKE and not the newly released MEDIAFORK.

640x??? - is a given its been mentioned throughout numerous of threads.

MPEG-4 or H.264 - I just did a test with 30sec clip and can't tell the difference. I've been watching it on my Powerbook, but it will be played onto a tv with the AppleTV. Which one should i use?

Both Test were set at: Framerate: 29.97, 2Pass-encoding, 1500average bitrate
I used for x264 (Main Profile) for the H.264 Test, but that was choosen as default. Again, which one should it be: x264 (Main Profile) or x264 (Baseline Profile)

THANKS for any help.

I'm suprised at the many differing opinions. It's how you watch the shows.

I watch mainly on my iPod and hope to get a widescreen one when they come out. Since it's only for mobile, using Handbrake:

640x??? depending on the original screen size
MPEG-4 becuase encoding is faster
Use source framerate
160K Audio (like slighty better audio quality).
Bitrate: about 500, but 650 if it's a widescreen. I turn Widescreen "off" when viewing on the iPod so it will zoom in a bit.

I get small files as I'm trying to cram as much shows on my 60Gig as possible.
My new Mac Mini 1.66 Core Duo encodes the above settings at 80fps. On my old iBook G4 1.0GHz it was going at 15fps.

I watch purchased iTunes shows via S-video on my projector, hence the H.264 at over 1000 bitrate is better.

H.264 is much higher quality, but takes about 4-5 times longer to encode.

 

[lostless]

My take on the DE-Volution of Handbrake called MediaFork after a few minutes with it:

4. Make Framerate default 29.97 instead of "same as source" because when you encode with "same as source" it isn't "same as source" it's 24fps.

5. Please Please Please switch the Deinterlace Picture checkbox default to ON CHECKED ON ON ON ON ON PLEASE for the love of GOD.

I just posted this on the Handbrake Forums Bug Section. Check it out with this link.

Multimedia, I ask you why you want deinterlacing and 29.97 FPS on at defualt? Films on DVD, 99% of the time, are stored at 23.97 FPS progressively. There is nothing to deinterlace. A DVD player actually creatates the 3:2 pulldown in real time on the fly for use on SDTVs. Also the conversion to 29.97 FPS will cause a doubled frame every for every 4th frame causing a slight skip in the picture 4 times a second. Try rippng a movie at 23.97FPS and see how much smoother the motion is. I see if you are ripping video sources (TV shows, VHS tapes, home movies) there would need to be deinterlacing. But not all TV shows are interlaced and run at a pure 29.97 FPS. Some TV shows are at 24FPS with 3:2 to make 30 fps. Ive ripped those shows at 23.97 with deinterlacing on to produce a smooth progressive 23.97FPS movie. Doesnt work on all TV shows, depends if they were edited or not after 3:2 pulldown was achieved.
Ive also been experimenting with ripping the fields out of video to 60FPS video and making 60FPS mpeg4s. Works great on the ipod, but quicktime crashes if I pause/FF/rew, the video. If you have any questions about my meathods, feel free to ask.

 

[lostless]

Foxbat, I just read that you are in Europe, must of missed it when i first posted. PAL runs at 25FPS and most films are sped up 4% (24 to 25 FPS) when put onto DVD. My main post was for NTSC. For PAL, just set 25 FPS and NO deinterlacing. Its not needed. Tested it with a PAL source I made. Note deinterlacing still needs to be used for PAL video sources

 

[GraceMolloy]

I wait with baited breath for this dialog to continue.

 

[weldon]

Multimedia, I ask you why you want deinterlacing and 29.97 FPS on at defualt? Films on DVD, 99% of the time, are stored at 23.97 FPS progressively. There is nothing to deinterlace. A DVD player actually creatates the 3:2 pulldown in real time on the fly for use on SDTVs.

I'm not a DVD authoring expert, but from what I understand films are actually stored as pairs of interlaced fields with the MEPG flag set to tell the decoder to repeat the field for 3:2 pulldown. De-interlacing is created on the fly by the player by using weave, bob, field-adaptive or motion-adaptive algorithms.

If I'm right, and I think I am, wouldn't it make sense to deinterlace the pairs of fields into a single progressive frame for encoding into H.264? Also, the audio would be synched to 29.97fps so Multimedia's comment about not getting audio drift would also come into play, right?

 

[madmaxmedia]

I'd say MediaFork is a definite step BACKWARDS from Handbrake so far. Why turn your back on a proven brand name? I don't get it.

This may be common knowledge by now, but MediaFork is not from the original HandBrake developer. They had been trying to contact him but failed, thus they split off into a separate app. HandBrake is open-source, but they couldn't just make their own changes and then release it as an updated HandBrake.

Apparently, they have recently been in contact with the dev, and will be rolling back into HandBrake.

 

[Multimedia]

What's Your Bait Grace? I'll Bite!

I wait with baited breath for this dialog to continue.

What are you using for bait Grace?

 

[Multimedia]

MediaFork: Stick A Spoon In It. Handbrake Lives!

This may be common knowledge by now, but MediaFork is not from the original HandBrake developer. They had been trying to contact him but failed, thus they split off into a separate app. HandBrake is open-source, but they couldn't just make their own changes and then release it as an updated HandBrake.

Apparently, they have recently been in contact with the dev, and will be rolling back into HandBrake.

That's a relief. It's obvious to me they don't really know about user interface as well as the Handbrake guy. Close but no Cuban cigars anyway. Thanks for the heads up. I didn't even know they were out there until someone asked what it was here.

 

[Krevnik]

Perfect example of how two people who are both doing everything right can legitimately both be right about two completely different encoding practices. Neither of us are "wrong". In fact we're both right.[/QUOTE]

True.

Krevnik is shooting for something that looks almost the same as the original and for that result he is willing to be iPod incompatible and to eat huge amounts of hard drive/Blu-ray DVD space.

My SD content plays back on my 5G iPod (Using MediaFork, you can get 640x480 H.264 at up to 1500Kbps that will work on an iPod, similar to the downloadable content from iTunes), but also looks pretty good when streamed to my 40" XBR 2. Not quite DVD, but still worlds better than the crap Comcast tries to pass for digital cable in my area.

My movie and TV episode filesizes tend to be pretty comparable to what iTunes offers (800MB-2GB for a full-length feature film). Now HD... that eats space up. 3-4GB each, although they don't stream over iTunes because of a bug in iTunes' DAAP (won't stream files over 2GB), which worries me, since these encodes are meant for Apple TV.

Still, I am not wasting any more space than iTunes movies/shows do, and my HD content is still less than 1/4th the filesize of the source I encoded it from.

I on the other hand am shooting for the best I can get that will still load on iPods - i.e. AppleTV compatible as well - AND be archivable on CDs AND not break the bank on hard drive/Blu-ray/DVD storage space.

Huh... funny thing is, that is what I am shooting for too. The key difference is that I have a networked RAID 5 array which is the archival copy. All my SD content will load on an iPod and (thus) Apple TV... and the HD rips I am producing meet the specs Apple has listed so far for 720p content.

I have yet to break the 200GB mark with my library, even with 180+ episodes (mostly from hour-long shows) and over 50 movies.

Although if there is ANYTHING I would like to see MediaFork/Handbrake do better is deinterlacing. For live action, it tends to do okay, but the stuttering it generates in animated material when panning is annoying. Granted, these particular animation sources are some of the most difficult pieces of interlaced video to playback effectively without combing. :/