Are bees capable of feeling exploited?

[Abstract]

(mod note: split from this thread)

Yesterday, I met a vegetarian who didn't want to eat a vegetarian cake because it had honey in it. Someone went through the trouble of making a vegan cake (no eggs or milk in it whatsoever), and used organic honey as a sweetener (or I think it was organic.....I work at a food co-op that's mostly organic), which is like the least "abusive" to bees since it's not mass produced, and yet she wouldn't eat it because it crosses the line?

 

[iBlue]

Yesterday, I met a vegetarian who didn't want to eat a vegetarian cake because it had honey in it. Someone went through the trouble of making a vegan cake (no eggs or milk in it whatsoever), and used organic honey as a sweetener (or I think it was organic.....I work at a food co-op that's mostly organic), which is like the least "abusive" to bees since it's not mass produced, and yet she wouldn't eat it because it crosses the line?

Just reading that annoyed me. How utterly obnoxious. (as are most vegans) Something about the people who do it for moral reasons... it just irritates the hell out of me. I really hope she gets attacked by a swarm of bees and promptly bitten by an animal or something.
It also bothers me that everyone else has to try to cater to their eating styles yet they would never try to cater to your preferences for eating.
Ever notice how unhealthy they tend to look? Not the best promotional value to their uptight little vegan cause either.
</mini rant>

On topic, I didn't know that about cheese. I find that the more I know about the food I eat the more I don't want to know.

 

[alFR]

You met a vegan Abstract (and a strict one at that!). Vegan's don't consume (eat or use) any animal derived products (unless incidental and unavoidable).

To me honey isn't animal-derived - it's just nectar from flowers that has evaporated a bit and become more concentrated. OK, so the bees have carried it to their hive for you, but so what? Someone's harvested all those vegetables in the supermarket and carried them to the shop: it doesn't make them animal-derived, does it?

 

[MongoTheGeek]

Yesterday, I met a vegetarian who didn't want to eat a vegetarian cake because it had honey in it. Someone went through the trouble of making a vegan cake (no eggs or milk in it whatsoever), and used organic honey as a sweetener (or I think it was organic.....I work at a food co-op that's mostly organic), which is like the least "abusive" to bees since it's not mass produced, and yet she wouldn't eat it because it crosses the line?

If they are going to go that far then they should also refuse to eat commercially produced almonds. Honey production is actually just a byproduct of the pollination process which is where beekeepers make 90% of their money. Almonds and a number of fruits and nuts are dependent on roving beekeepers to pollinate their crops. Taking the honey is no worse than forcing the slave labor.

 

[Queso]

To me honey isn't animal-derived - it's just nectar from flowers that has evaporated a bit and become more concentrated.

That's a rather romantic view of it. Technically honey is chewed and dried insect vomit

Link

 

[.Andy]

To me honey isn't animal-derived - it's just nectar from flowers that has evaporated a bit and become more concentrated. OK, so the bees have carried it to their hive for you, but so what? Someone's harvested all those vegetables in the supermarket and carried them to the shop: it doesn't make them animal-derived, does it?

There's quite a lot of time, energy, and resources invested in the production of honey by bees. It's far from simply evaporated nectar. Go ahead and try to make some for yourself with your recipe .

As I pointed out I'm not a vegan so perhaps someone who is is better versed (I like honey). My understanding is that Vegans strive to avoid any exploitation of animals for their personal benefit. This includes taking honey from bees. Bees are producing honey (with the opportunity cost of investing their time and energy) for the sole purpose of producing food for their offspring and the hive. They do not consent to it being taken from their hives for human consumption, and taking it is to the detriment of the bees (loss of their net effort). In those terms I'm sure you can see the error in your supermarket-worker analogy....

 

[jsw]

To the OP:

I would think any "moral" vegetarian would be outraged to learn of that and, likely, would stop eating most cheese. Which just leaves more for the rest of us.

They do not consent to it being taken from their hives for human consumption, and taking it is to the detriment of the bees (loss of their net effort).

But... they're... bees. They aren't sentient. They don't feel exploited. They... they're insects. God, this morality thing confuses the hell out of me. I think a lot of people are just insanely over-empathic and am surprised they don't spend their days at the beach, frantically digging up the drowning sand when the tide comes in.

There are some *extreme* vegans - "fruitarians" or whatever they call themselves (nutters? ) who won't dig up veg or pick fruit from trees but only eat stuff that has naturally fallen... Each to their own I guess!

One can only presume that they also eat the seeds and excrete them in fertile areas, as the plants would want.

 

[dylan]

But... they're... bees. They aren't sentient. They don't feel exploited...

How could you possibly be sure of that?

 

[jsw]

How could you possibly be sure of that?

One can never be truly sure of anything.

However, vast amounts of neurological study indicate that the brain of a bee is utterly incapable of anything even remotely approaching being able to feel exploited. They aren't even self-aware. If you're worried that bees can feel exploited, then I'd seriously start to feel bad for your furniture, which likely feels enslaved.

 

[dylan]

One can never be truly sure of anything.

However, vast amounts of neurological study indicate that the brain of a bee is utterly incapable of anything even remotely approaching being able to feel exploited. They aren't even self-aware. If you're worried that bees can feel exploited, then I'd seriously start to feel bad for your furniture, which likely feels enslaved.

Maybe the bees feel exploited in a different way. My point is one can never truly know so I don't feel it's right to state these things as facts. If there's a possibility I think people are justified in being concerned.

 

[princealfie]

One can never be truly sure of anything.

However, vast amounts of neurological study indicate that the brain of a bee is utterly incapable of anything even remotely approaching being able to feel exploited. They aren't even self-aware. If you're worried that bees can feel exploited, then I'd seriously start to feel bad for your furniture, which likely feels enslaved.

Indeed. I doubt that the chicken I ate at KFC will come back to peck me.

 

[Queso]

Maybe the bees feel exploited in a different way. My point is one can never truly know so I don't feel it's right to state these things as facts. If there's a possibility I think people are justified in being concerned.

You may as well say you'll never clean your bathroom again in case the germs scream when the bleach hits them. Humans are part of a natural cycle where animals do actually live off each other. Whether that be flies feeding on horse dung, lions eating antelope, or humans raiding hives for honey, it's all part of the same engine.

 

[jsw]

Maybe the bees feel exploited in a different way. My point is one can never truly know so I don't feel it's right to state these things as facts. If there's a possibility I think people are justified in being concerned.

Quantum mechanics proves to us that it is entirely possible that a gold statue of Steve Jobs will spontaneously appear in your room. Right now. It's possible. It is, however, staggeringly improbable. People who think that "possible" and "likely" are synonyms need to learn more math.

Is it, in the strictest sense of the word, "possible" that the bees feel exploited? I suppose. In the same sense that that statue of Steve Jobs might appear. It would mean bees think, that, further, they are capable of emotions, that they are capable of complex feelings like "being exploited", and that they don't want us to take their honey.

No, wait, I take that back. The gold statue thing? Possible with known laws of physics acting in a very unlikely way. Possible for the nerve complex in the brain of a bee to feel exploited? No.

 

[Peterkro]

Thats not taking into account the wonderous Improbability Drive.

 

[jsw]

Thats not taking into account the wonderous Improbability Drive.

True... but even it fails with a probability of zero.

 

[Peterkro]

100,000,000,000,000,000,000,000, to 1 and lowering.

*solid gold statue of Steve Jobs appears on desk*

 

[dylan]

Quantum mechanics proves to us that it is entirely possible that a gold statue of Steve Jobs will spontaneously appear in your room. Right now. It's possible. It is, however, staggeringly improbable. People who think that "possible" and "likely" are synonyms need to learn more math.

Is it, in the strictest sense of the word, "possible" that the bees feel exploited? I suppose. In the same sense that that statue of Steve Jobs might appear. It would mean bees think, that, further, they are capable of emotions, that they are capable of complex feelings like "being exploited", and that they don't want us to take their honey.

No, wait, I take that back. The gold statue thing? Possible with known laws of physics acting in a very unlikely way. Possible for the nerve complex in the brain of a bee to feel exploited? No.

Isn't it possible for it not to be an individual emotion but more of a 'hive mind' type emotion? This would mean that the capability would not need to be present in a single bee but rather in a central consciousness or distributed in parts throughout the collective. I don't think that's too much of a stretch there are still many things beyond our, very limited, comprehension of this world.

 

[iBlue]

I thumb my nose at these pesky emotional bees. buzz off!

 

[kretzy]

Isn't it possible for it not to be an individual emotion but more of a 'hive mind' type emotion? This would mean that the capability would not need to be present in a single bee but rather in a central consciousness or distributed in parts throughout the collective. I don't think that's too much of a stretch there are still many things beyond our, very limited, comprehension of this world.

They're not the Borg.

 

[bartelby]

Maybe the bees feel exploited in a different way. My point is one can never truly know so I don't feel it's right to state these things as facts. If there's a possibility I think people are justified in being concerned.

Via the gift of interpretive dance I just asked a bee if it was ok for us to have honey. I think I got his answer right, it was:

"If you keep blowing that goooood smoke over us, man, and leave us some honey for the munchies, you can take what you want. Peace"

So, there we have it!!

 

[Queso]

Via the gift of interpretive dance I just asked a bee if it was ok for us to have honey. I think I got his answer right, it was:

"If you keep blowing that goooood smoke over us, man, and leave us some honey for the munchies, you can take what you want. Peace"

So, there we have it!!

...and now I'm cleaning coffee up off my desk. Interpretive dance

 

[jsw]

Isn't it possible for it not to be an individual emotion but more of a 'hive mind' type emotion? This would mean that the capability would not need to be present in a single bee but rather in a central consciousness or distributed in parts throughout the collective. I don't think that's too much of a stretch there are still many things beyond our, very limited, comprehension of this world.

OK, if you're positing a high-latency low node-count distributed neural network that's capable of achieving consciousness at a level that it's also capable of feeling exploited, then at least I can somewhat see where you're coming from. Still, I think you're vastly underestimating the required complexity.

Also, as bartelby so amusingly pointed out, the bees derive benefit from us as well (protection, thermal stability, food sources, etc.), and so it's far more likely they'd feel gratitude. It'd be like finding out some other being was exploiting the keystrokes I use to post on MR for their own benefit. I couldn't care less, since they keep me involved here.

 

[bartelby]

Also, as bartelby so amusingly pointed out, the bees derive benefit from us as well (protection, thermal stability, food sources, etc.),

I did??

Erm, I mean. Yeah. That's right.

Or is this some of your famed sarcasm?

 

[Motley]

They're not the Borg.

Then why after being stung by a bee did I suddenly have an urge to join the hive and start collecting nector?

Protect the queen!!!

 

[emw]

Perhaps they do feel exploited, and are now unionizing and going on strike.

Partial quote:

Missing bees create a buzz
Whole colonies are vanishing across the country

By Maurice Possley
Tribune staff reporter
Published March 28, 2007, 7:47 AM CDT

MISSOULA, Mont. -- The disappearance and deaths of millions of honeybees in nearly half of the nation's states is a mystery seemingly befitting an episode of "CSI" and is threatening an estimated $14 billion in crops that rely on pollination.

In an inconspicuous office suite here—the home of Bee Alert Technology Inc.—scientists are feverishly working to solve an entomological mystery: What happened to tens of thousands of honeybee colonies in at least 24 states?

These are crime scenes without bodies. Beekeepers have been opening hives and instead of finding thriving colonies with as many as 60,000 bees, they find an apian ghost town.

"It's called Colony Collapse Disorder," said Jerry Bromenshenk, a University of Montana professor and head of Bee Alert who has studied honeybees for more than three decades. "We don't know that it's a disease, we don't know if it's due to management practices by beekeepers. There are so many variables. We can't yet find a common denominator."